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Average Attendances 40 Years Ago
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you should take into account the growth in the population, In 1985 in England it was 47.2 million, in 2025 it is 57.7 million. So crudely you would expect to see an increase in attendance of 20% in that time. So is the low attendance then that poor.1
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Better than Germany?charltonkeston said:Football was dying on its arse back then. Looking back I enjoyed football then but it wasn't great times. Theres a few clubs in that list like Swindon who must think nothing has changed much in the way of attendances. As much as I dislike what has become to much of the game now I think this country is the best place to watch it. When I go to our home games now I do like the fact there are so many Europeans that pop over to take a game in, us being in London and playing at a reasonable must make us an attractive place to visit.0 -
I like Germany, but yes. London and Charlton defiantly better.Simonsen said:
Better than Germany?charltonkeston said:Football was dying on its arse back then. Looking back I enjoyed football then but it wasn't great times. Theres a few clubs in that list like Swindon who must think nothing has changed much in the way of attendances. As much as I dislike what has become to much of the game now I think this country is the best place to watch it. When I go to our home games now I do like the fact there are so many Europeans that pop over to take a game in, us being in London and playing at a reasonable must make us an attractive place to visit.0 -
Football is way more entertaining now than in the 1980s. The passback to goalkeeper rule changed things for the better.golfaddick said:1985 - 2025.
Better Stadiums, worse entertainment.
Think I'd rather stand on the terraces & watch a 4-3 than sit in a nice stadium watching tippy- tappy sideways no shots football4 -
Thats right, according to this forum at least 100,000 saw the 7-6 versus Huddersfield.cantersaddick said:I suspect that with the lack of safety measure at that time crowds weren't properly counted either. Imagine there's a possibility of undercounts.3 -
The difference is that you go to any major German city and you've got 1-3 professional sides available. London you've got a dozen league teams, 7 of them in the Premiership. There's really nowhere else like it in world football. Look at France, Spain, Italy, Germany, every city has 1-3 professional clubs, most just the 1 or 2. The closest competitors to London for sheer volume of teams are West Midlands (i.e. the metropolitan area including Brum, Cov and Wolves) and Greater Manchester, both with 6 I believe.Simonsen said:
Better than Germany?charltonkeston said:Football was dying on its arse back then. Looking back I enjoyed football then but it wasn't great times. Theres a few clubs in that list like Swindon who must think nothing has changed much in the way of attendances. As much as I dislike what has become to much of the game now I think this country is the best place to watch it. When I go to our home games now I do like the fact there are so many Europeans that pop over to take a game in, us being in London and playing at a reasonable must make us an attractive place to visit.1 -
Wolves 4,020 wow !1
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msomerton said:you should take into account the growth in the population, In 1985 in England it was 47.2 million, in 2025 it is 57.7 million. So crudely you would expect to see an increase in attendance of 20% in that time. So is the low attendance then that poor.
In 1948 it was 43.3 million, but attendances were much higher (Charlton averaged over 40k). Not sure there is a material correlation between population and football attendances.3 -
I can't have been the only kid in the 70s who got in half price by squeezing through the turnstile at the same time as my dad. Dad was happy because the turnstile man's 'kindness' saved him a couple of bob. The turnstile man was happy, because he supplemented his wages. Only the club missed out.cantersaddick said:I suspect that with the lack of safety measure at that time crowds weren't properly counted either. Imagine there's a possibility of undercounts.
I'm not sure at what point proper ticketing systems came in and separated point-of-payment from point-of-entry, but I'm sure that until that time attendance figures must have been well lower than than the actuality.0 -
If attendances were understated because of generous turnstile operators in the 80s, then they were also understated because of generous turnstile operators in the 40s.Stig said:
I can't have been the only kid in the 70s who got in half price by squeezing through the turnstile at the same time as my dad. Dad was happy because the turnstile man's 'kindness' saved him a couple of bob. The turnstile man was happy, because he supplemented his wages. Only the club missed out.cantersaddick said:I suspect that with the lack of safety measure at that time crowds weren't properly counted either. Imagine there's a possibility of undercounts.
I'm not sure at what point proper ticketing systems came in and separated point-of-payment from point-of-entry, but I'm sure that until that time attendance figures must have been well lower than than the actuality.
So our league average of 5,108 in 1984-85 was potentially a bit higher than that stated, and our average of 40,216 in 1948-49 was probably a bit higher by a similar proportion.0 -
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The attendances 40 years ago were probably more accurate than more recent years because nowadays season ticket holders are now counted whether than can be bothered to turn-up or not.3
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And importantly it was a sell-out. The East Stand had been closed by the authorities. It was one of the specious arguments for moving to the supermarket. It’s hard to know how quickly that excellent team would have brought fans back to the Valley in big numbers. But there was one game at the supermarket against Liverpool which inexplicably attracted 25k.Covered End said:
Yes, thanks & 8,000 odd for Stoke where I left with tears in my eyes.swords_alive said:
This was the game where the leaflets were handed out telling us the news. Saturday, 7th Sept 1985. 3-1 win. Attendance 6,637 according to 11v11.comCovered End said:
I believe we played Palace at home a few weeks before we left The Valley and the attendance was 4,300 ish (not looked up).paulsturgess said:I wonder what our average would have been that season at The Valley2 -
No doubts.SporadicAddick said:
If attendances were understated because of generous turnstile operators in the 80s, then they were also understated because of generous turnstile operators in the 40s...Stig said:
I can't have been the only kid in the 70s who got in half price by squeezing through the turnstile at the same time as my dad. Dad was happy because the turnstile man's 'kindness' saved him a couple of bob. The turnstile man was happy, because he supplemented his wages. Only the club missed out.cantersaddick said:I suspect that with the lack of safety measure at that time crowds weren't properly counted either. Imagine there's a possibility of undercounts.
I'm not sure at what point proper ticketing systems came in and separated point-of-payment from point-of-entry, but I'm sure that until that time attendance figures must have been well lower than than the actuality.0 -
A lot of fans paying cash at the turnstile leading to clubs under reporting incomecantersaddick said:I suspect that with the lack of safety measure at that time crowds weren't properly counted either. Imagine there's a possibility of undercounts.1 -
Back in the day it was common for attendances to be under-stated - either because turnstile operators took cash to let people in that never made it into the takings, or because the club itself would knock a few thousand off for, ahem, "tax purposes".
These days attendances are more likely to be over-stated, by counting people that never turned up - including free tickets distributed to people who were never likely to turn up.2 -
There were, of course, games in our past at which the attendance couldn't be understated, as the taxman would have counted every fan manually during the game.
v Southport, 22nd December 1973. (4,311)
(Credit Tom Morris, Museum Flickr)
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I see what you mean....London is a great place to visit for the variety of football and of course casual visitors can always get a ticket at Charlton, which makes it attractive (in the same way that Fulham attracted casual fans and overseas visitors).charltonkeston said:
I like Germany, but yes. London and Charlton defiantly better.Simonsen said:
Better than Germany?charltonkeston said:Football was dying on its arse back then. Looking back I enjoyed football then but it wasn't great times. Theres a few clubs in that list like Swindon who must think nothing has changed much in the way of attendances. As much as I dislike what has become to much of the game now I think this country is the best place to watch it. When I go to our home games now I do like the fact there are so many Europeans that pop over to take a game in, us being in London and playing at a reasonable must make us an attractive place to visit.
In my experience, Germany offers a far superior match day experience, with stadium atmospheres to rival those of the full grounds of yesteryear. I can't think of a top German ground that doesn't have terracing behind at least one goal and that makes a huge difference to the noise levels. It is still possible to tell one German ground from another.
On the other poster's point, I disagree that football is more exciting now than the 80s but it depends on what excites a fan? To me, the thrill came from the whole package; the players, the stadiums (which were all SO different to each other), the crowds (such as they were), the pitches (again so different depending on the venue), the physicality of the game and the characters that played and managed.
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Italy is also good for watching football.Can drink in the grounds, great atmospheres, vast range of lots of historic stadiums
also feels a bit less “trendy” and somehow natural/authentic over there than some of the German clubs. German is great too though1 -
Last game of the season at Maine Road 47,285 to see them get promoted to the top flight against us in May 1985.
Where a 5-1 defeat and City fans left right and centre around the 200 or so travelling Addicks , singing loyal supporters and swapping scarves at the end .
We would have been dead if we’d won !3 -
Wasn't that a Sunday game ? And for you youngsters, it wasn't on Sky, it was part of the three day week and miners strike restrictions on floodlit games.SporadicAddick said:There were, of course, games in our past at which the attendance couldn't be understated, as the taxman would have counted every fan manually during the game.
v Southport, 22nd December 1973. (4,311)
(Credit Tom Morris, Museum Flickr)1 -
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Prompted by the parking thread, I think it's worth noting another reason why attendances would be low in the '70s, and that is the paucity of public transport compared to earlier and later periods. Though the arguments here only relate to Charlton and not (necessarily) other clubs.
In 1959 the electric Trolleybuses were phased out and replaced by diesel Routemaster buses. Whilst overall capacity may have been maintained, journey times became slower because the 'new' buses couldn't accelerate as quickly.
It wasn't untill 1999 that the Borough was put on the Underground map with the opening on North Greenwich station. Even then it's worth noting that, the Jubilee and later DLR and Liz Line developments focus on the ends of the borough, ignoring Charlton in the middle.
Car ownership in the '70s wasn't anything like today's levels, though I suspect parking itself may have been easier.0 -
It was a Saturday, and not during the 3 day week (but you are right in that it wasn't on Sky).Bailey said:
Wasn't that a Sunday game ? And for you youngsters, it wasn't on Sky, it was part of the three day week and miners strike restrictions on floodlit games.SporadicAddick said:There were, of course, games in our past at which the attendance couldn't be understated, as the taxman would have counted every fan manually during the game.
v Southport, 22nd December 1973. (4,311)
(Credit Tom Morris, Museum Flickr)
Admittedly, the last Saturday before Christmas (traditionally always a low turnout) and in the 3rd Division against Southport, so hardly a glamour fixture.0 -
One of my favourite and most vivid Charlton match memories. The whole business of most of us missing the 1st half because of train trouble, the fleet of black taxis to the ground from Piccadilly, the turnstile staff charging us full-whack (who knows if the cash actually found it's way into Manchester City's bank account...) and being immediately struck by the deafening noise inside Maine Road. There was enough action in 45 minutes to make it feel like we'd seen a whole match!oohaahmortimer said:Last game of the season at Maine Road 47,285 to see them get promoted to the top flight against us in May 1985.
Where a 5-1 defeat and City fans left right and centre around the 200 or so travelling Addicks , singing loyal supporters and swapping scarves at the end .
We would have been dead if we’d won !
Of course, later on the way home, we learnt of the Bradford fire.2 -
You may be thinking of the Shrewsbury 3-3 game, which I think was our first Sunday game.Bailey said:
Wasn't that a Sunday game ? And for you youngsters, it wasn't on Sky, it was part of the three day week and miners strike restrictions on floodlit games.SporadicAddick said:There were, of course, games in our past at which the attendance couldn't be understated, as the taxman would have counted every fan manually during the game.
v Southport, 22nd December 1973. (4,311)
(Credit Tom Morris, Museum Flickr)0 -
It's easy to forget just how deeply uncool it was to be a 'normal' football fan (not up for the rucking). Saturday afternoons spent at crumbling venues watching (in our case) 2nd or 3rd-rate entertainment, with little atmosphere. Casual football fans, those with young kids, women, all easily dissuaded from attending (or coming a 2nd time).0
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I used work in Germany from time to time back in the 90’s. I was lucky to have been there when they played Holland or the Netherlands. That was an atmosphere unlike any other.Simonsen said:
I see what you mean....London is a great place to visit for the variety of football and of course casual visitors can always get a ticket at Charlton, which makes it attractive (in the same way that Fulham attracted casual fans and overseas visitors).charltonkeston said:
I like Germany, but yes. London and Charlton defiantly better.Simonsen said:
Better than Germany?charltonkeston said:Football was dying on its arse back then. Looking back I enjoyed football then but it wasn't great times. Theres a few clubs in that list like Swindon who must think nothing has changed much in the way of attendances. As much as I dislike what has become to much of the game now I think this country is the best place to watch it. When I go to our home games now I do like the fact there are so many Europeans that pop over to take a game in, us being in London and playing at a reasonable must make us an attractive place to visit.
In my experience, Germany offers a far superior match day experience, with stadium atmospheres to rival those of the full grounds of yesteryear. I can't think of a top German ground that doesn't have terracing behind at least one goal and that makes a huge difference to the noise levels. It is still possible to tell one German ground from another.
On the other poster's point, I disagree that football is more exciting now than the 80s but it depends on what excites a fan? To me, the thrill came from the whole package; the players, the stadiums (which were all SO different to each other), the crowds (such as they were), the pitches (again so different depending on the venue), the physicality of the game and the characters that played and managed.1 -
redlanered said:It's easy to forget just how deeply uncool it was to be a 'normal' football fan (not up for the rucking). Saturday afternoons spent at crumbling venues watching (in our case) 2nd or 3rd-rate entertainment, with little atmosphere. Casual football fans, those with young kids, women, all easily dissuaded from attending (or coming a 2nd time).
Getting in and out of a train station was always interesting.
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All attendances fell quite dramatically across the leagues after the 50s but Charlton's declined at a rate about double that of attendances in general. I think the closure of much of the heavier industries along Woolwich road had an impact on us locally, and the weaker transport links as you say. We also had mostly third division football at the Valley through the 70s.Stig said:Prompted by the parking thread, I think it's worth noting another reason why attendances would be low in the '70s, and that is the paucity of public transport compared to earlier and later periods. Though the arguments here only relate to Charlton and not (necessarily) other clubs.
In 1959 the electric Trolleybuses were phased out and replaced by diesel Routemaster buses. Whilst overall capacity may have been maintained, journey times became slower because the 'new' buses couldn't accelerate as quickly.
It wasn't untill 1999 that the Borough was put on the Underground map with the opening on North Greenwich station. Even then it's worth noting that, the Jubilee and later DLR and Liz Line developments focus on the ends of the borough, ignoring Charlton in the middle.
Car ownership in the '70s wasn't anything like today's levels, though I suspect parking itself may have been easier.0
