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Savings and Investments thread
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The 40% rate of tax is already pretty low. If they reduced it to £47500 or even £45000 then it would be a joke.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
It's all total speculation atm but most reports seem to be speculating that its both a freeze on income tax bands and reducing the thresholds where you start paying 40p and 45p tax.bobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
But isn't the rumour now she'll change the bands? So same result?Huskaris said:Seen that income tax raise has been ditched, interesting to see what fills the void now.
Also saw the exit tax was ditched, surprised it was considered in the first place seeing as the idea that rich people would leave the UK in order to protect their wealth was just a myth
Is that changing the bands or extending the freeze for another two years (until 2030) as suggested by the Fabian Society?0 -
Agreed, its a horrendous idea. Squeezing the already squeezed.golfaddick said:
The 40% rate of tax is already pretty low. If they reduced it to £47500 or even £45000 then it would be a joke.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
It's all total speculation atm but most reports seem to be speculating that its both a freeze on income tax bands and reducing the thresholds where you start paying 40p and 45p tax.bobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
But isn't the rumour now she'll change the bands? So same result?Huskaris said:Seen that income tax raise has been ditched, interesting to see what fills the void now.
Also saw the exit tax was ditched, surprised it was considered in the first place seeing as the idea that rich people would leave the UK in order to protect their wealth was just a myth
Is that changing the bands or extending the freeze for another two years (until 2030) as suggested by the Fabian Society?0 -
All this flip flopping about a budget is a poor look. So many rumours since they announced a budget delay in August just get on with it9
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Agreed. For all the talk of "adults in charge" after the chaos of the previous 6 years they're using the same bullshit tactics of leak stuff and see how its received.BigRedEvil said:All this flip flopping about a budget is a poor look. So many rumours since they announced a budget delay in August just get on with it3 -
I've had a policy idea which I think might work but feel free to shoot down.
For Branded medicines in the UK we have two pricing schemes for pharma companies who sell in the UK. These set a limit on the revenue that can be made by the sector in the UK in any year and all revenue above that limit is clawed back by the government. Government are very careful not to call this a tax and instead present it as a saving to the NHS as that is the sole purchaser of branded medicines in the UK. However in effect it is essentially a tax and massively limits the profits of the sector. I actually think in the recent past the scheme has been too tight and we risked Pharma companies reactions but the changes to the schemes in 2024 and 2025 seem to have addressed this. There is the Voluntary Scheme: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2024-voluntary-scheme-for-branded-medicines-pricing-access-and-growth
And that is underpinned by a legal backstop that is the statutory scheme:https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/proposed-review-of-the-statutory-scheme-for-branded-medicines-pricing
Why can't a similar scheme be applied to other sectors where specific conditions are found (small number of large and powerful companies making economically excess profits from essential goods). For example Energy. That would have the dual benefit of reduced prices for consumers and increased revenue for government. Another one potentially non-luxury food items - given the scale of growth in supermarket profits since the cost of living crisis started and the oligopoly power of the big players in the sector.
Any reason why this wouldn't work?
I don't think there would be any risk of them leaving the UK market as still have massive market power and captive customers.
Edit: of course I'm not actually expecting this government to do it as their last election campaign was in part funded by those industries so I'm sure that came with promises.0 -
all this speculation is mind numbingly tedious and incredibly detrimental to the economy. They should have just shut up, made their decisions and got on with it. However painful the measures are, above all markets, investors and the economy just need clarity and stability.Plonkers.3
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How is this not deemed a tax rise? Do they think we are really stupid?golfaddick said:
The 40% rate of tax is already pretty low. If they reduced it to £47500 or even £45000 then it would be a joke.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
It's all total speculation atm but most reports seem to be speculating that its both a freeze on income tax bands and reducing the thresholds where you start paying 40p and 45p tax.bobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
But isn't the rumour now she'll change the bands? So same result?Huskaris said:Seen that income tax raise has been ditched, interesting to see what fills the void now.
Also saw the exit tax was ditched, surprised it was considered in the first place seeing as the idea that rich people would leave the UK in order to protect their wealth was just a myth
Is that changing the bands or extending the freeze for another two years (until 2030) as suggested by the Fabian Society?0 -
redman said:
How is this not deemed a tax rise? Do they think we are really stupid?golfaddick said:
The 40% rate of tax is already pretty low. If they reduced it to £47500 or even £45000 then it would be a joke.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
It's all total speculation atm but most reports seem to be speculating that its both a freeze on income tax bands and reducing the thresholds where you start paying 40p and 45p tax.bobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
But isn't the rumour now she'll change the bands? So same result?Huskaris said:Seen that income tax raise has been ditched, interesting to see what fills the void now.
Also saw the exit tax was ditched, surprised it was considered in the first place seeing as the idea that rich people would leave the UK in order to protect their wealth was just a myth
Is that changing the bands or extending the freeze for another two years (until 2030) as suggested by the Fabian Society?No increase in 'rates' of income tax, VAT or NI for hardworking people. They said nothing about bands.That's how they will position it anyway.4 -
There was a play on BBC the other week titled "The Absence of War", staring John Thaw. Set in the early 90's it was about the Labour leader fighting a General Election. Loosely based on Neil Kinnock & Labour's doomed attempt in 1992.
The comparison to now is frightening. Labour not having a clue about running the economy & everyone knows it !4 -
Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
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There is some bigger picture context on this outside if the public finances point. We have an ageing population but lots of the world including some near neighbours (France, Germany and others) have that problem coming down the road sooner and harder. The demand for health professionals is at a massive high in Europe and places like Australia. And its only gonna get much higher. We invest a massive amount in their education and training placements etc. Yet we lose a massive number to other countries every year. Removing what is the one aspect of their compensation we offer better than other countries is not gonna help our staffing issues.golfaddick said:Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
If we want healthcare in this country of any kind we need to have an offer on the table that keeps medical professionals here. We can't be short-termist about this or there will be no one to look after us in old age.
Lots more in the 10 year health plan:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/10-year-health-plan-for-england-fit-for-the-future
And a 10 year health workforce plan to be published soon.
Also there hasn't been any final salary NHS pensions since 2010. A very small number of people managed to keep previous final salary pensions going but for most they were ported into a new scheme in 2010. Resident doctors by nature of where they are in their careers will certainly have no element of final salary. It'll be career average with 42 years service required to get full career average salary in retirement1 -
I read somewhere that in the 60s and 70s we had roughly 5 working people for every pensioner we had.
That meant that pensions were affordable.
We now have about 3 working people per pensioner.
This is partly due to people living longer, but another cause for this is about 1 million younger people between the age of 17 and 20 are neither in education or work.
They are simply living at home on benefits.
Unless they are genuinely in a bad way with a real reason why they cannot work they shouldn't be paid a penny.
The system in this country is broken and far too many people are being paid for doing naff all.
This needs to change9 -
1 million young people out of work isn’t enough to warp the figures that much, it’s very much the aging population and the refusal of pensioners to realise that in order for this country to get out the doldrums they need to take a hit to their state pensions and other state benefits like the fuel allowance. Pensioners are currently the richest generation, they can shoulder more of the burden.blackpool72 said:I read somewhere that in the 60s and 70s we had roughly 5 working people for every pensioner we had.
That meant that pensions were affordable.
We now have about 3 working people per pensioner.
This is partly due to people living longer, but another cause for this is about 1 million younger people between the age of 17 and 20 are neither in education or work.
They are simply living at home on benefits.
Unless they are genuinely in a bad way with a real reason why they cannot work they shouldn't be paid a penny.
The system in this country is broken and far too many people are being paid for doing naff all.
This needs to change4 -
Huge generalisation there.Diebythesword said:
1 million young people out of work isn’t enough to warp the figures that much, it’s very much the aging population and the refusal of pensioners to realise that in order for this country to get out the doldrums they need to take a hit to their state pensions and other state benefits like the fuel allowance. Pensioners are currently the richest generation, they can shoulder more of the burden.blackpool72 said:I read somewhere that in the 60s and 70s we had roughly 5 working people for every pensioner we had.
That meant that pensions were affordable.
We now have about 3 working people per pensioner.
This is partly due to people living longer, but another cause for this is about 1 million younger people between the age of 17 and 20 are neither in education or work.
They are simply living at home on benefits.
Unless they are genuinely in a bad way with a real reason why they cannot work they shouldn't be paid a penny.
The system in this country is broken and far too many people are being paid for doing naff all.
This needs to change
Not all pensioner's are rich, plenty are struggling.
I agree the triple lock has to go at some point, but the millions of working age people out of work and claiming benefits has to also be addressed.2 -
Nah old people need to just go on fewer cruises and they'll be fine.
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I don't think you want to be discussing with me about the finer points of the NHS Pension. I've been dealing with it for 25 years in all of its guises.cantersaddick said:
There is some bigger picture context on this outside if the public finances point. We have an ageing population but lots of the world including some near neighbours (France, Germany and others) have that problem coming down the road sooner and harder. The demand for health professionals is at a massive high in Europe and places like Australia. And its only gonna get much higher. We invest a massive amount in their education and training placements etc. Yet we lose a massive number to other countries every year. Removing what is the one aspect of their compensation we offer better than other countries is not gonna help our staffing issues.golfaddick said:Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
If we want healthcare in this country of any kind we need to have an offer on the table that keeps medical professionals here. We can't be short-termist about this or there will be no one to look after us in old age.
Lots more in the 10 year health plan:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/10-year-health-plan-for-england-fit-for-the-future
And a 10 year health workforce plan to be published soon.
Also there hasn't been any final salary NHS pensions since 2010. A very small number of people managed to keep previous final salary pensions going but for most they were ported into a new scheme in 2010. Resident doctors by nature of where they are in their careers will certainly have no element of final salary. It'll be career average with 42 years service required to get full career average salary in retirement
And it didnt change in 2010. There was a new one in 2008 that hardly anyone took up, and then in 2015 a new one "replaced" the 1995 scheme. But in reality most Doctors (and I can really only speak for them) didn't join the 2015 scheme until 2022.
And the 1995 scheme is still linked to final salary, even if NHS staff are now in the 2015 scheme or even left.0 -
3.5m aged 50-64 out of work (Labour market stats for 2025 linked below) much more of a problem as these will likely never work again. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/economic-labour-market-status-of-individuals-aged-50-and-over-trends-over-time-september-2025/economic-labour-market-status-of-individuals-aged-50-and-over-trends-over-time-september-2025#:~:text=In 2025 there were 3.5,for not looking for work.blackpool72 said:
Huge generalisation there.Diebythesword said:
1 million young people out of work isn’t enough to warp the figures that much, it’s very much the aging population and the refusal of pensioners to realise that in order for this country to get out the doldrums they need to take a hit to their state pensions and other state benefits like the fuel allowance. Pensioners are currently the richest generation, they can shoulder more of the burden.blackpool72 said:I read somewhere that in the 60s and 70s we had roughly 5 working people for every pensioner we had.
That meant that pensions were affordable.
We now have about 3 working people per pensioner.
This is partly due to people living longer, but another cause for this is about 1 million younger people between the age of 17 and 20 are neither in education or work.
They are simply living at home on benefits.
Unless they are genuinely in a bad way with a real reason why they cannot work they shouldn't be paid a penny.
The system in this country is broken and far too many people are being paid for doing naff all.
This needs to change
Not all pensioner's are rich, plenty are struggling.
I agree the triple lock has to go at some point, but the millions of working age people out of work and claiming benefits has to also be addressed.
Current pensioner are the richest generation in history with 27% as millionaires. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/datasets/totalwealthwealthingreatbritain?
They hold half of all wealth in the country and more than 65% of housing wealth. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/08/pensioners-now-hold-half-of-britains-wealth/#:~:text=Pensioners now hold nearly half,generational inequality across the UK.
Pensioners were protected from 15 years of Tory Austerity. In fact they were the only cohort of people who got better off due to the triple lock. Every other age group came out worse off. Personally I've tried to move away from having the generational conversation as I think its counterproductive and a wedge issue designed to place blame and cause division and detract away from the real issue of wealth inequality. But there is a strong corelation between generation and wealth so it does still form part of the equation. I believe most of the things the government are doing at the moment are tinkering without actually tackling the real issue. But if you're gonna tinker you might as well tinker with the wealthiest people not crap all over those who have been crapped on for 15 years.2 -
Yes but resident doctors by definition of being in the first stage of being a doctor will be on the scheme I described whether it came in from 2010 or 2015 (my mistake) as they will have joined after that date. So resident doctors who you were talking about will have no element of final salary pension whatsoever as its not possible to be a resident doctor but to have joined the pension pre 2015.golfaddick said:
I don't think you want to be discussing with me about the finer points of the NHS Pension. I've been dealing with it for 25 years in all of its guises.cantersaddick said:
There is some bigger picture context on this outside if the public finances point. We have an ageing population but lots of the world including some near neighbours (France, Germany and others) have that problem coming down the road sooner and harder. The demand for health professionals is at a massive high in Europe and places like Australia. And its only gonna get much higher. We invest a massive amount in their education and training placements etc. Yet we lose a massive number to other countries every year. Removing what is the one aspect of their compensation we offer better than other countries is not gonna help our staffing issues.golfaddick said:Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
If we want healthcare in this country of any kind we need to have an offer on the table that keeps medical professionals here. We can't be short-termist about this or there will be no one to look after us in old age.
Lots more in the 10 year health plan:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/10-year-health-plan-for-england-fit-for-the-future
And a 10 year health workforce plan to be published soon.
Also there hasn't been any final salary NHS pensions since 2010. A very small number of people managed to keep previous final salary pensions going but for most they were ported into a new scheme in 2010. Resident doctors by nature of where they are in their careers will certainly have no element of final salary. It'll be career average with 42 years service required to get full career average salary in retirement
And it didnt change in 2010. There was a new one in 2008 that hardly anyone took up, and then in 2015 a new one "replaced" the 1995 scheme. But in reality most Doctors (and I can really only speak for them) didn't join the 2015 scheme until 2022.
And the 1995 scheme is still linked to final salary, even if NHS staff are now in the 2015 scheme or even left.
No point conflating doctors in the first step of their career with ones nearing retirement.
Also note you didn't address the issue of global demand for doctors as a reason we should avoid cutting pensions for new doctors.1 -
I agree with a lot of what you are saying but for every rich pensioner there will be a poor one.cantersaddick said:
3.5m aged 50-64 out of work (Labour market stats for 2025 linked below) much more of a problem as these will likely never work again. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/economic-labour-market-status-of-individuals-aged-50-and-over-trends-over-time-september-2025/economic-labour-market-status-of-individuals-aged-50-and-over-trends-over-time-september-2025#:~:text=In 2025 there were 3.5,for not looking for work.blackpool72 said:
Huge generalisation there.Diebythesword said:
1 million young people out of work isn’t enough to warp the figures that much, it’s very much the aging population and the refusal of pensioners to realise that in order for this country to get out the doldrums they need to take a hit to their state pensions and other state benefits like the fuel allowance. Pensioners are currently the richest generation, they can shoulder more of the burden.blackpool72 said:I read somewhere that in the 60s and 70s we had roughly 5 working people for every pensioner we had.
That meant that pensions were affordable.
We now have about 3 working people per pensioner.
This is partly due to people living longer, but another cause for this is about 1 million younger people between the age of 17 and 20 are neither in education or work.
They are simply living at home on benefits.
Unless they are genuinely in a bad way with a real reason why they cannot work they shouldn't be paid a penny.
The system in this country is broken and far too many people are being paid for doing naff all.
This needs to change
Not all pensioner's are rich, plenty are struggling.
I agree the triple lock has to go at some point, but the millions of working age people out of work and claiming benefits has to also be addressed.
Current pensioner are the richest generation in history with 27% as millionaires. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/datasets/totalwealthwealthingreatbritain?
They hold half of all wealth in the country and more than 65% of housing wealth. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/08/pensioners-now-hold-half-of-britains-wealth/#:~:text=Pensioners now hold nearly half,generational inequality across the UK.
Pensioners were protected from 15 years of Tory Austerity. In fact they were the only cohort of people who got better off due to the triple lock. Every other age group came out worse off. Personally I've tried to move away from having the generational conversation as I think its counterproductive and a wedge issue designed to place blame and cause division and detract away from the real issue of wealth inequality. But there is a strong corelation between generation and wealth so it does still form part of the equation. I believe most of the things the government are doing at the moment are tinkering without actually tackling the real issue. But if you're gonna tinker you might as well tinker with the wealthiest people not crap all over those who have been crapped on for 15 years.
Not sure how this can be tackled without some form of means testing.
In your 1st paragraph you state 3.5 million 50 to 64 year olds out of work
There are also 1 million 17 to 20 years old out of work and plenty more in the middle age groups.
My point is that unemployed people living on benefits is just as big a problem as the triple lock.
Anyway I'll leave it here as to stop it going down a political hole.3 -
I agree means testing has to be the solution (assuming we are going to keep on tinkering rather than actually solve structural problems).blackpool72 said:
I agree with a lot of what you are saying but for every rich pensioner there will be a poor one.cantersaddick said:
3.5m aged 50-64 out of work (Labour market stats for 2025 linked below) much more of a problem as these will likely never work again. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/economic-labour-market-status-of-individuals-aged-50-and-over-trends-over-time-september-2025/economic-labour-market-status-of-individuals-aged-50-and-over-trends-over-time-september-2025#:~:text=In 2025 there were 3.5,for not looking for work.blackpool72 said:
Huge generalisation there.Diebythesword said:
1 million young people out of work isn’t enough to warp the figures that much, it’s very much the aging population and the refusal of pensioners to realise that in order for this country to get out the doldrums they need to take a hit to their state pensions and other state benefits like the fuel allowance. Pensioners are currently the richest generation, they can shoulder more of the burden.blackpool72 said:I read somewhere that in the 60s and 70s we had roughly 5 working people for every pensioner we had.
That meant that pensions were affordable.
We now have about 3 working people per pensioner.
This is partly due to people living longer, but another cause for this is about 1 million younger people between the age of 17 and 20 are neither in education or work.
They are simply living at home on benefits.
Unless they are genuinely in a bad way with a real reason why they cannot work they shouldn't be paid a penny.
The system in this country is broken and far too many people are being paid for doing naff all.
This needs to change
Not all pensioner's are rich, plenty are struggling.
I agree the triple lock has to go at some point, but the millions of working age people out of work and claiming benefits has to also be addressed.
Current pensioner are the richest generation in history with 27% as millionaires. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/datasets/totalwealthwealthingreatbritain?
They hold half of all wealth in the country and more than 65% of housing wealth. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/08/pensioners-now-hold-half-of-britains-wealth/#:~:text=Pensioners now hold nearly half,generational inequality across the UK.
Pensioners were protected from 15 years of Tory Austerity. In fact they were the only cohort of people who got better off due to the triple lock. Every other age group came out worse off. Personally I've tried to move away from having the generational conversation as I think its counterproductive and a wedge issue designed to place blame and cause division and detract away from the real issue of wealth inequality. But there is a strong corelation between generation and wealth so it does still form part of the equation. I believe most of the things the government are doing at the moment are tinkering without actually tackling the real issue. But if you're gonna tinker you might as well tinker with the wealthiest people not crap all over those who have been crapped on for 15 years.
Not sure how this can be tackled without some form of means testing.
In your 1st paragraph you state 3.5 million 50 to 64 year olds out of work
There are also 1 million 17 to 20 years old out of work and plenty more in the middle age groups.
My point is that unemployed people living on benefits is just as big a problem as the triple lock.
Anyway I'll leave it here as to stop it going down a political hole.
Yes unemployment is a big issue but we need to tackle the structural causes of this (7.3m on NHS waiting lists for treatment for one) and the social contracts that have broken down meaning work is no longer either attractive or an option.0 -
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It was a headline on my news feed and am sure it said change, but can’t find anything so must be freeze. I blame my age and a very long week at work (was in your old world Bob, chairing disciplinary hearing!!)bobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
But isn't the rumour now she'll change the bands? So same result?Huskaris said:Seen that income tax raise has been ditched, interesting to see what fills the void now.
Also saw the exit tax was ditched, surprised it was considered in the first place seeing as the idea that rich people would leave the UK in order to protect their wealth was just a myth
Is that changing the bands or extending the freeze for another two years (until 2030) as suggested by the Fabian Society?0 -
Everything is speculation at the moment, but The Times story this morning mentions extending the current freeze on thresholds out another two years from 2028 to 2030. The expectation being that this raises £8bn.Rob7Lee said:
It was a headline on my news feed and am sure it said change, but can’t find anything so must be freeze. I blame my age and a very long week at work (was in your old world Bob, chairing disciplinary hearing!!)bobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
But isn't the rumour now she'll change the bands? So same result?Huskaris said:Seen that income tax raise has been ditched, interesting to see what fills the void now.
Also saw the exit tax was ditched, surprised it was considered in the first place seeing as the idea that rich people would leave the UK in order to protect their wealth was just a myth
Is that changing the bands or extending the freeze for another two years (until 2030) as suggested by the Fabian Society?0 -
I don't want to get into a political debate on a thread that is supposed to be about money. All I will say is that in my 25 years of speaking to all grades of Doctors the Pension scheme (or changes to it) has not been to toper-most in their reasons why they would seek work elsewhere. Its usually to do with pay, conditions & hours of work.cantersaddick said:
Yes but resident doctors by definition of being in the first stage of being a doctor will be on the scheme I described whether it came in from 2010 or 2015 (my mistake) as they will have joined after that date. So resident doctors who you were talking about will have no element of final salary pension whatsoever as its not possible to be a resident doctor but to have joined the pension pre 2015.golfaddick said:
I don't think you want to be discussing with me about the finer points of the NHS Pension. I've been dealing with it for 25 years in all of its guises.cantersaddick said:
There is some bigger picture context on this outside if the public finances point. We have an ageing population but lots of the world including some near neighbours (France, Germany and others) have that problem coming down the road sooner and harder. The demand for health professionals is at a massive high in Europe and places like Australia. And its only gonna get much higher. We invest a massive amount in their education and training placements etc. Yet we lose a massive number to other countries every year. Removing what is the one aspect of their compensation we offer better than other countries is not gonna help our staffing issues.golfaddick said:Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
If we want healthcare in this country of any kind we need to have an offer on the table that keeps medical professionals here. We can't be short-termist about this or there will be no one to look after us in old age.
Lots more in the 10 year health plan:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/10-year-health-plan-for-england-fit-for-the-future
And a 10 year health workforce plan to be published soon.
Also there hasn't been any final salary NHS pensions since 2010. A very small number of people managed to keep previous final salary pensions going but for most they were ported into a new scheme in 2010. Resident doctors by nature of where they are in their careers will certainly have no element of final salary. It'll be career average with 42 years service required to get full career average salary in retirement
And it didnt change in 2010. There was a new one in 2008 that hardly anyone took up, and then in 2015 a new one "replaced" the 1995 scheme. But in reality most Doctors (and I can really only speak for them) didn't join the 2015 scheme until 2022.
And the 1995 scheme is still linked to final salary, even if NHS staff are now in the 2015 scheme or even left.
No point conflating doctors in the first step of their career with ones nearing retirement.
Also note you didn't address the issue of global demand for doctors as a reason we should avoid cutting pensions for new doctors.
I will agree that the link to the NHS Pension being based on final salary was broken to new entrants in 2015, but it is still linked to their salary & is index linked throughout their career & into retirement. This was my main point. It is simply unaffordable & this money should (imo) be spent on the NHS, and not on pensioners with incomes above £50k pa.
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I wonder which Govenment will increase the tax thresholds again ? I have no doubt the will be frozen for the rest of this Parliament. Next tax year pensioners with just the State Pension will state paying tax.TelMc32 said:
Everything is speculation at the moment, but The Times story this morning mentions extending the current freeze on thresholds out another two years from 2028 to 2030. The expectation being that this raises £8bn.Rob7Lee said:
It was a headline on my news feed and am sure it said change, but can’t find anything so must be freeze. I blame my age and a very long week at work (was in your old world Bob, chairing disciplinary hearing!!)bobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
But isn't the rumour now she'll change the bands? So same result?Huskaris said:Seen that income tax raise has been ditched, interesting to see what fills the void now.
Also saw the exit tax was ditched, surprised it was considered in the first place seeing as the idea that rich people would leave the UK in order to protect their wealth was just a myth
Is that changing the bands or extending the freeze for another two years (until 2030) as suggested by the Fabian Society?0 -
I mean you brought it up.golfaddick said:
I don't want to get into a political debate on a thread that is supposed to be about money. All I will say is that in my 25 years of speaking to all grades of Doctors the Pension scheme (or changes to it) has not been to toper-most in their reasons why they would seek work elsewhere. Its usually to do with pay, conditions & hours of work.cantersaddick said:
Yes but resident doctors by definition of being in the first stage of being a doctor will be on the scheme I described whether it came in from 2010 or 2015 (my mistake) as they will have joined after that date. So resident doctors who you were talking about will have no element of final salary pension whatsoever as its not possible to be a resident doctor but to have joined the pension pre 2015.golfaddick said:
I don't think you want to be discussing with me about the finer points of the NHS Pension. I've been dealing with it for 25 years in all of its guises.cantersaddick said:
There is some bigger picture context on this outside if the public finances point. We have an ageing population but lots of the world including some near neighbours (France, Germany and others) have that problem coming down the road sooner and harder. The demand for health professionals is at a massive high in Europe and places like Australia. And its only gonna get much higher. We invest a massive amount in their education and training placements etc. Yet we lose a massive number to other countries every year. Removing what is the one aspect of their compensation we offer better than other countries is not gonna help our staffing issues.golfaddick said:Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
If we want healthcare in this country of any kind we need to have an offer on the table that keeps medical professionals here. We can't be short-termist about this or there will be no one to look after us in old age.
Lots more in the 10 year health plan:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/10-year-health-plan-for-england-fit-for-the-future
And a 10 year health workforce plan to be published soon.
Also there hasn't been any final salary NHS pensions since 2010. A very small number of people managed to keep previous final salary pensions going but for most they were ported into a new scheme in 2010. Resident doctors by nature of where they are in their careers will certainly have no element of final salary. It'll be career average with 42 years service required to get full career average salary in retirement
And it didnt change in 2010. There was a new one in 2008 that hardly anyone took up, and then in 2015 a new one "replaced" the 1995 scheme. But in reality most Doctors (and I can really only speak for them) didn't join the 2015 scheme until 2022.
And the 1995 scheme is still linked to final salary, even if NHS staff are now in the 2015 scheme or even left.
No point conflating doctors in the first step of their career with ones nearing retirement.
Also note you didn't address the issue of global demand for doctors as a reason we should avoid cutting pensions for new doctors.
I will agree that the link to the NHS Pension being based on final salary was broken to new entrants in 2015, but it is still linked to their salary & is index linked throughout their career & into retirement. This was my main point. It is simply unaffordable & this money should (imo) be spent on the NHS, and not on pensioners with incomes above £50k pa.
So like I said not final salary but career average and requires 42 years of service (pretty difficult after 7+ years of training) to actually reach career average. So actually nowhere near as generous as those schemes you were talking about.
The point is that currently resident doctors are in a completely different position to those you are speaking to who are much nearer retirement. The pension is a much bigger part of the overall compensation for this cohort than any previous because of how much every other part of their compensation has fallen. Its a major part of the negotiations currently ongoing and central to the 10 year workforce plan.0 -
I didnt speak at all. But – as they say on Duolingo – what do I know? I’m just a bear.😉Rob7Lee said:Did we all speak too soon, markets took a hit today.3 -
Yes, but a career average scheme that is very top heavy for the last 12 years of their career. These arent junior staff in the civil service who's pay just goes up by RPI every year. Are you aware of what a Hospital Consultant on the top increment earns? £145,478pa. That is for the last 6 years. The previous 6 years it is £131,058. So "career averaged" the pension is £2,694pa for every year in the last 6 years (total £16,164pa) & £2,427pa every year (total 14,562pa) for the previous 6 years. That's £30,726pa.......and that's without any of those 12 years being index linked during that time. So more like £40kpa in retirement. And that's just the last 12 years of their working career. Yes....I really pity the poor Resident Doctors scraping by on £39k pa.cantersaddick said:
I mean you brought it up.golfaddick said:
I don't want to get into a political debate on a thread that is supposed to be about money. All I will say is that in my 25 years of speaking to all grades of Doctors the Pension scheme (or changes to it) has not been to toper-most in their reasons why they would seek work elsewhere. Its usually to do with pay, conditions & hours of work.cantersaddick said:
Yes but resident doctors by definition of being in the first stage of being a doctor will be on the scheme I described whether it came in from 2010 or 2015 (my mistake) as they will have joined after that date. So resident doctors who you were talking about will have no element of final salary pension whatsoever as its not possible to be a resident doctor but to have joined the pension pre 2015.golfaddick said:
I don't think you want to be discussing with me about the finer points of the NHS Pension. I've been dealing with it for 25 years in all of its guises.cantersaddick said:
There is some bigger picture context on this outside if the public finances point. We have an ageing population but lots of the world including some near neighbours (France, Germany and others) have that problem coming down the road sooner and harder. The demand for health professionals is at a massive high in Europe and places like Australia. And its only gonna get much higher. We invest a massive amount in their education and training placements etc. Yet we lose a massive number to other countries every year. Removing what is the one aspect of their compensation we offer better than other countries is not gonna help our staffing issues.golfaddick said:Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
If we want healthcare in this country of any kind we need to have an offer on the table that keeps medical professionals here. We can't be short-termist about this or there will be no one to look after us in old age.
Lots more in the 10 year health plan:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/10-year-health-plan-for-england-fit-for-the-future
And a 10 year health workforce plan to be published soon.
Also there hasn't been any final salary NHS pensions since 2010. A very small number of people managed to keep previous final salary pensions going but for most they were ported into a new scheme in 2010. Resident doctors by nature of where they are in their careers will certainly have no element of final salary. It'll be career average with 42 years service required to get full career average salary in retirement
And it didnt change in 2010. There was a new one in 2008 that hardly anyone took up, and then in 2015 a new one "replaced" the 1995 scheme. But in reality most Doctors (and I can really only speak for them) didn't join the 2015 scheme until 2022.
And the 1995 scheme is still linked to final salary, even if NHS staff are now in the 2015 scheme or even left.
No point conflating doctors in the first step of their career with ones nearing retirement.
Also note you didn't address the issue of global demand for doctors as a reason we should avoid cutting pensions for new doctors.
I will agree that the link to the NHS Pension being based on final salary was broken to new entrants in 2015, but it is still linked to their salary & is index linked throughout their career & into retirement. This was my main point. It is simply unaffordable & this money should (imo) be spent on the NHS, and not on pensioners with incomes above £50k pa.
So like I said not final salary but career average and requires 42 years of service (pretty difficult after 7+ years of training) to actually reach career average. So actually nowhere near as generous as those schemes you were talking about.
The point is that currently resident doctors are in a completely different position to those you are speaking to who are much nearer retirement. The pension is a much bigger part of the overall compensation for this cohort than any previous because of how much every other part of their compensation has fallen. Its a major part of the negotiations currently ongoing and central to the 10 year workforce plan.
As I said.....don't get me on the ins & outs of the NHS Pension Scheme. It's been my life for the past 25 years.0 -
Purely mathematically only about 25% of resident doctors will end up as consultants. Again not doubting your experience with individuals but that is not reflective of the full picture across the board and even more so for current cohorts.golfaddick said:
Yes, but a career average scheme that is very top heavy for the last 12 years of their career. Are you aware of what a Hospital Consultant on the top increment earns? £145,478pa. That is for the last 6 years. The previous 6 years it is £131,058. So "career averaged" that is £2,694pa for the last 6 years (total £16,164pa) & £2,427pa (total 14,562pa) for previous 6 years. That's £30,726pa.......and that's without any of those 12 years being index linked during that time. So more like £40kpa in retirement. And that's just the last 12 years of their working career. Yes....I pity the poor Resident Doctors scraping by on £39k pa knowing that when they retire they will get more than that in pension.cantersaddick said:
I mean you brought it up.golfaddick said:
I don't want to get into a political debate on a thread that is supposed to be about money. All I will say is that in my 25 years of speaking to all grades of Doctors the Pension scheme (or changes to it) has not been to toper-most in their reasons why they would seek work elsewhere. Its usually to do with pay, conditions & hours of work.cantersaddick said:
Yes but resident doctors by definition of being in the first stage of being a doctor will be on the scheme I described whether it came in from 2010 or 2015 (my mistake) as they will have joined after that date. So resident doctors who you were talking about will have no element of final salary pension whatsoever as its not possible to be a resident doctor but to have joined the pension pre 2015.golfaddick said:
I don't think you want to be discussing with me about the finer points of the NHS Pension. I've been dealing with it for 25 years in all of its guises.cantersaddick said:
There is some bigger picture context on this outside if the public finances point. We have an ageing population but lots of the world including some near neighbours (France, Germany and others) have that problem coming down the road sooner and harder. The demand for health professionals is at a massive high in Europe and places like Australia. And its only gonna get much higher. We invest a massive amount in their education and training placements etc. Yet we lose a massive number to other countries every year. Removing what is the one aspect of their compensation we offer better than other countries is not gonna help our staffing issues.golfaddick said:Don't want to slide this thread too much into politics but with the Junior (oops....Resident) Doctors starting their 5 day strike today I would give them this option.......
The pay rise they are looking for in return for the NHS Pension scheme switching to a DC Scheme. With 10% contributions from both sides (roughly what is currently being contributed) but obviously there would be no linking to final salary or indexation in retirement.
If we want healthcare in this country of any kind we need to have an offer on the table that keeps medical professionals here. We can't be short-termist about this or there will be no one to look after us in old age.
Lots more in the 10 year health plan:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/10-year-health-plan-for-england-fit-for-the-future
And a 10 year health workforce plan to be published soon.
Also there hasn't been any final salary NHS pensions since 2010. A very small number of people managed to keep previous final salary pensions going but for most they were ported into a new scheme in 2010. Resident doctors by nature of where they are in their careers will certainly have no element of final salary. It'll be career average with 42 years service required to get full career average salary in retirement
And it didnt change in 2010. There was a new one in 2008 that hardly anyone took up, and then in 2015 a new one "replaced" the 1995 scheme. But in reality most Doctors (and I can really only speak for them) didn't join the 2015 scheme until 2022.
And the 1995 scheme is still linked to final salary, even if NHS staff are now in the 2015 scheme or even left.
No point conflating doctors in the first step of their career with ones nearing retirement.
Also note you didn't address the issue of global demand for doctors as a reason we should avoid cutting pensions for new doctors.
I will agree that the link to the NHS Pension being based on final salary was broken to new entrants in 2015, but it is still linked to their salary & is index linked throughout their career & into retirement. This was my main point. It is simply unaffordable & this money should (imo) be spent on the NHS, and not on pensioners with incomes above £50k pa.
So like I said not final salary but career average and requires 42 years of service (pretty difficult after 7+ years of training) to actually reach career average. So actually nowhere near as generous as those schemes you were talking about.
The point is that currently resident doctors are in a completely different position to those you are speaking to who are much nearer retirement. The pension is a much bigger part of the overall compensation for this cohort than any previous because of how much every other part of their compensation has fallen. Its a major part of the negotiations currently ongoing and central to the 10 year workforce plan.
As I said.....don't get me on the ins & outs of the NHS Pension Scheme. It's been my life for the past 25 years.
And I've never said we should feel sorry for them but they are doctors they look after us when we are sick. They are underpaid compared to most comparable countries. So taking away the one part of their package that we are internationally competitive on is not sensible for the long term ability to maintain a workforce of health professionals just as global and European demand for them is about to explode.0
