Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.

I don't suppose there are any train spotters/anoraks on CL? ;-)

JamesSeed
JamesSeed Posts: 17,391
edited October 28 in Not Sports Related

I'm researching train travel in the 1920s when clubs who'd played each other on Christmas Day would have to travel to the reverse fixture held on Boxing Day.

I know that there was a train service on those public holdays, which is just as well for the fans and players travelling to the games. And I know that there would have been sleeper services too, but I gather they were mainly on the longer journeys, like London to Cornwall, or London to Scotland.

I'm researching 1923 in particular. Jimmy's little sister got married on Boxing Day that year. Jimmy played for Spurs v. Huddersfield at White Hart Lane on Christmas Day, but didn't play in the reverse fixture, presumably so that he could attend the wedding in Whitburn.

He'd have had to get a train from King's Cross, to either Newcastle or Sunderland, on Boxing Day morning (a journey of six or seven hours?) but I'm wondering if he might have got a train the night before, after the home match. I've been trying to access contemporaneous timetables, but without any luck so far. Of course getting from either Newcastle or Sunderland to Whitburn wouldn't have been easy at one or two in the morning.

But even getting a train on Boxing Day morning would have inolved an early start, depending on the time of the wedding, and I was wondering what time the first train would have left King's Cross (East Coast Main Line train, operated by the newly formed London and North Eastern Railway)?

Comments

  • Stig
    Stig Posts: 29,088
    Might be worth contacting National Railway Museum, or at least doing an online /search of their archive, James.  Good luck.

    https://yorsearch.york.ac.uk/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma9958514611801381&context=L&vid=44YORK_INST:NRM_NUI&lang=en&search_scope=NRM&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=NRM&query=sub,equals,Railroads%20--%20Timetables,AND&mode=advanced&offset=0
  • swords_alive
    swords_alive Posts: 4,300
    Could goods or post trains have taken passengers too in certain carriages on certain routes? Maybe this was a way to get to places off the beaten track or off the regular timetable. 
  • Chizz
    Chizz Posts: 28,351

    Train Services on Boxing Day, 1923

    The London and North Eastern Railway (LNER), formed in 1923, operated the East Coast Main Line. While specific Boxing Day timetables from 1923 aren't readily available, it's plausible that the LNER maintained a limited service on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, as was common practice during that era. This would have included early morning trains departing King's Cross. 

    King's Cross to Newcastle or Sunderland

    • King's Cross to Newcastle: The journey typically took around 4 to 5 hours. Assuming an early morning departure on Boxing Day, a train might have left King's Cross around 7:00 AM, arriving in Newcastle by 11:00 AM.

    • King's Cross to Sunderland: This route was less direct. Travelers often changed at York or Newcastle. The journey could take approximately 6 to 7 hours, suggesting a departure time around 6:00 AM to arrive by early afternoon.  

    Evening Travel on Christmas Day 

    Given Jimmy's participation in the Christmas Day match at White Hart Lane, travelling on the evening of December 25th would have been challenging. Evening services from King's Cross were limited, and connections to Newcastle or Sunderland would have been sparse. Therefore, an early morning departure on Boxing Day seems more likely.   

    Reaching Whitburn

    Whitburn, located near Sunderland, would have been accessible from Newcastle by local train or taxi. However, travelling in the early morning hours would have posed logistical challenges, especially considering the limited transportation options during that time.  

    For more detailed information, you might consider:

    • NERA Publications: The North Eastern Railway Association offers facsimile timetables, such as the July 1923 LNER North Eastern Area Passenger Timetable, which could provide insights into service patterns during that period. ner.org.uk

    • Timetable World: This site offers access to historical timetables, including those from the LNER era. timetableworld.com

    • LNER Society: They provide publications and resources related to the LNER, which might include relevant timetable information. LNER Society

  • Dave Rudd
    Dave Rudd Posts: 2,868
    edited October 28
    Can't help with this one but, in a similar vein, maybe someone could look at the 1960 Boxing Day logistics too.

    We beat Plymouth 6-4 at home on that day (2.15pm kick off) and then lost 4-6 the next day at Plymouth (3.15pm kick-off).

    No squad rotation.  Just a brisk shower and a few light ales on the train.  Perhaps a brandy before bed (no smoking after 10pm) and some early morning press-ups before strutting the turf after a quick 'cold meat' lunch.

    Mans' football.
  • swords_alive
    swords_alive Posts: 4,300
    I now have an AI source to corroborate my theory :)

    Yes, in 1920, passengers, particularly third-class passengers, were sometimes permitted to travel on goods trains in the UK, often in open, standing-room-only wagons. This practice was more common on certain railways and reflected the lower status of goods transport compared to dedicated passenger services. 
    • Passenger accommodation: 
      Passengers on goods trains had a much more basic experience, with open-air wagons and no dedicated seating. It was often a "standing-room-only" situation, designed for those who couldn't afford or didn't have access to more comfortable passenger carriages. 
    Class status: 
    Third-class passengers were the most likely group to travel this way. Many railway companies discouraged lower classes from traveling on their lines, but some allowed it, with the conditions reflecting their lower status. 
    Context in 1920s UK: 
    The 1920s was a period of significant transformation for the UK railway system, with the consolidation of railways into "The Big Four" in 1923 to improve efficiency. Goods traffic was a major source of revenue for many railways, and passenger services were being modernized to compete with roads. However, the practice of allowing passengers on goods trains continued during this time, especially for shorter or less affluent routes. 
  • EugenesAxe
    EugenesAxe Posts: 3,367
    May have more luck on the Millwall forum?
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,391
    Chizz said:

    Train Services on Boxing Day, 1923

    The London and North Eastern Railway (LNER), formed in 1923, operated the East Coast Main Line. While specific Boxing Day timetables from 1923 aren't readily available, it's plausible that the LNER maintained a limited service on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, as was common practice during that era. This would have included early morning trains departing King's Cross. 

    King's Cross to Newcastle or Sunderland

    • King's Cross to Newcastle: The journey typically took around 4 to 5 hours. Assuming an early morning departure on Boxing Day, a train might have left King's Cross around 7:00 AM, arriving in Newcastle by 11:00 AM.

    • King's Cross to Sunderland: This route was less direct. Travelers often changed at York or Newcastle. The journey could take approximately 6 to 7 hours, suggesting a departure time around 6:00 AM to arrive by early afternoon.  

    Evening Travel on Christmas Day 

    Given Jimmy's participation in the Christmas Day match at White Hart Lane, travelling on the evening of December 25th would have been challenging. Evening services from King's Cross were limited, and connections to Newcastle or Sunderland would have been sparse. Therefore, an early morning departure on Boxing Day seems more likely.   

    Reaching Whitburn

    Whitburn, located near Sunderland, would have been accessible from Newcastle by local train or taxi. However, travelling in the early morning hours would have posed logistical challenges, especially considering the limited transportation options during that time.  

    For more detailed information, you might consider:

    • NERA Publications: The North Eastern Railway Association offers facsimile timetables, such as the July 1923 LNER North Eastern Area Passenger Timetable, which could provide insights into service patterns during that period. ner.org.uk

    • Timetable World: This site offers access to historical timetables, including those from the LNER era. timetableworld.com

    • LNER Society: They provide publications and resources related to the LNER, which might include relevant timetable information. LNER Society

    Thanks Chizz. 
    I got a very similar response from ChatGPT, but the second time I asked, it said there was little or no service over the Xmas holiday, and the third time, after I suggested it had got it wrong, it claimed that there was a full service.
    When you look at the Christmas fixtures lists over the years it’s remarkable how few matches were postponed because of trains breaking down, or lack of staff etc affecting the service. 
    Steam trains were quite a lot slower than modern trains, and required more maintenance and fettling, but the service seems to have been quite reliable overall. 
    What I’ve learned while researching the new Jimmy Seed book is that ChatGPT is okay as a research tool, but more as a way in, rather than as a reliable source of information. It makes things up, always slanted to what it thinks you want to hear.
    In fact, if you ask ChatGPT if it hallucinates it will explain that it does and why it does.
  • redlanered
    redlanered Posts: 2,204
    Of course, it seems unusual (by current standards) to get married on Boxing Day, but i guess it was a day on which most people were not working (footballers excepted).  My grandparents actually got married on Christmas Day in 1920 presumably for the same reason.

Categories

“Marketplace”