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After the Millwall game - club reply to CAST p34, further CAST response p45
Comments
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Outside of gate 21 is within the ground.Algarveaddick said:
Schrodingers gate? How can outside the ground be inside the ground, BB?Baldybonce said:
Outside gate 21 is still inside the ground where the only Police on duty were inside or just outside of the control room.Algarveaddick said:Baldybonce said:
Cost. Simple as that.Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
I did say stationed outside Gate 21, guys. And I meant half a dozen of the 300 odd that were already being paid to be on duty, most of them seemed to be doing sod all else by all accounts?Weegie Addick said:Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
The police were all outside the ground. Only stewards on duty inside The Valley.Going by @TootingRedArmy's figures to have 6 Policemen on gate duty would have cost a LOT. The club obviously don't want to pay for Policing inside the ground and are prepared to suck up any incidents.
But taking it that we are experiencing some kind of tear in the space time continuum or a parallel universe. Why were there no police at the nearest point to Gate 21 where the club don't have to pay? It's a valid question. There were 300 of them FFS, there are two points where the Millwall fans can potentially get out and kick off. 50% of them are that gate. If the police are so determined to avoid potential flashpoints that they are prepared to inconvenience 20000 Charlton fans, why did they not deploy half a dozen of their finest to that particular bit of street?
I have never been involved in crowd control in my life, but if I had 300 employees stood around doing fuck all for a couple of hours and I had two entrances/exits to cover, I would have worked out that it might be an idea to positon a few of them at each...
Hope this helps
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I wonder how many tickets are actually available in the CE lower? Surely most are taken up by season ticket holders?bobmunro said:TootingRedArmy said:this is just a guessimate
but I would imagine you would need @15 police inside the away end of the ground ( 8hr shift? for football matches) cost @ £16,500 police + 50 stewards inside away end x 6hrs x £14 = £4200 @£21K TOTAL cost for police + stewards away end
3,000 Millwall charge them £40 per ticket (whatever EFL allows)= £120,000?
above from an earlier post...(I CHAT GPT Met police hr rate to get £16.5k & stewards on £14 ph.
OK I understand £40 can't be charged (£38 last night at Portman rd) what is the maximum under EFL rules
what isn't acceptable is fans safety is compromised by saving money, I obviously don't know exact numbers and figures but as a guessimate around £21K to police:steward the Away End
+ 300 police outside the ground, surely they are needed as close as possible for potential trouble so a number of vans parked up directly behind the JS for quick response.
whats the deal if police enter the ground if trouble occurs does club pay are the police on the clock?
feels a bit like a boozer with security on door, it kicks off and police come in and make arrest, this doesn't cost the pub?
ultimately we pay through our taxes so its reasonable to expect answers and not accept what police have trotted out that Millwall away supporters in JS is a No Police zone.There is no maximum away ticket price in the EFL - they voted against having the cap at £30 like the PL.The EFL rules state however that you cannot charge more for away tickets than the price in equivalent home areas. The equivalent home area at The Valley is the lower Covered End.0 -
I'll answer my own question and the answer is lots.superclive98 said:
I wonder how many tickets are actually available in the CE lower? Surely most are taken up by season ticket holders?bobmunro said:TootingRedArmy said:this is just a guessimate
but I would imagine you would need @15 police inside the away end of the ground ( 8hr shift? for football matches) cost @ £16,500 police + 50 stewards inside away end x 6hrs x £14 = £4200 @£21K TOTAL cost for police + stewards away end
3,000 Millwall charge them £40 per ticket (whatever EFL allows)= £120,000?
above from an earlier post...(I CHAT GPT Met police hr rate to get £16.5k & stewards on £14 ph.
OK I understand £40 can't be charged (£38 last night at Portman rd) what is the maximum under EFL rules
what isn't acceptable is fans safety is compromised by saving money, I obviously don't know exact numbers and figures but as a guessimate around £21K to police:steward the Away End
+ 300 police outside the ground, surely they are needed as close as possible for potential trouble so a number of vans parked up directly behind the JS for quick response.
whats the deal if police enter the ground if trouble occurs does club pay are the police on the clock?
feels a bit like a boozer with security on door, it kicks off and police come in and make arrest, this doesn't cost the pub?
ultimately we pay through our taxes so its reasonable to expect answers and not accept what police have trotted out that Millwall away supporters in JS is a No Police zone.There is no maximum away ticket price in the EFL - they voted against having the cap at £30 like the PL.The EFL rules state however that you cannot charge more for away tickets than the price in equivalent home areas. The equivalent home area at The Valley is the lower Covered End.
I assumed that the cheaper season ticket prices would see them snapped up.0 -
So max we can charge if its same as Lower Covered End is
£27.00 x 3000 Millwall = £81,000 or 2000 = £54,000 or 1500 = £40,500.
For high-risk games like Millwall, safety must come before profit. Reducing their away allocation would cut stewarding and policing costs and make crowd control far easier.The recent Fan Forum missed a chance to question the Met’s approach, where were 300 officers, what did they do, and what did it cost? The club should push for clearer planning and accountability.
Future fixtures need smarter management: keep Millwall fans in the Jimmy Seed Stand until home areas are clear or bus them in and out, as seen at other derbies. Better coordination between club, fans, and police is essential to prevent a repeat of recent chaos.
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I recall one season a club (Forest I think) charged us extortionate prices for our game at their place so for the home game against them, we introduced a ‘membership’ price for the covered end, which was the normal match day price, but the non member price reciprocated what they charged us at the away game. We then applied that to the Jimmy Seed stand (as we must) but didn’t accept any applications for the membership package without proof that you were CAFC fan.3
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Yes it does. The area to which I am referring is here. If a van load had been there rather than on Woolwich Road supping coffee they could have responded in seconds.Baldybonce said:
Outside of gate 21 is within the ground.Algarveaddick said:
Schrodingers gate? How can outside the ground be inside the ground, BB?Baldybonce said:
Outside gate 21 is still inside the ground where the only Police on duty were inside or just outside of the control room.Algarveaddick said:Baldybonce said:
Cost. Simple as that.Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
I did say stationed outside Gate 21, guys. And I meant half a dozen of the 300 odd that were already being paid to be on duty, most of them seemed to be doing sod all else by all accounts?Weegie Addick said:Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
The police were all outside the ground. Only stewards on duty inside The Valley.Going by @TootingRedArmy's figures to have 6 Policemen on gate duty would have cost a LOT. The club obviously don't want to pay for Policing inside the ground and are prepared to suck up any incidents.
But taking it that we are experiencing some kind of tear in the space time continuum or a parallel universe. Why were there no police at the nearest point to Gate 21 where the club don't have to pay? It's a valid question. There were 300 of them FFS, there are two points where the Millwall fans can potentially get out and kick off. 50% of them are that gate. If the police are so determined to avoid potential flashpoints that they are prepared to inconvenience 20000 Charlton fans, why did they not deploy half a dozen of their finest to that particular bit of street?
I have never been involved in crowd control in my life, but if I had 300 employees stood around doing fuck all for a couple of hours and I had two entrances/exits to cover, I would have worked out that it might be an idea to positon a few of them at each...
Hope this helps
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Yes i agree. The 'intelligence led policing' seems to have been every copper knew where Costa coffee was.Algarveaddick said:
Yes it does. The area to which I am referring is here. If a van load had been there rather than on Woolwich Road supping coffee they could have responded in seconds.Baldybonce said:
Outside of gate 21 is within the ground.Algarveaddick said:
Schrodingers gate? How can outside the ground be inside the ground, BB?Baldybonce said:
Outside gate 21 is still inside the ground where the only Police on duty were inside or just outside of the control room.Algarveaddick said:Baldybonce said:
Cost. Simple as that.Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
I did say stationed outside Gate 21, guys. And I meant half a dozen of the 300 odd that were already being paid to be on duty, most of them seemed to be doing sod all else by all accounts?Weegie Addick said:Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
The police were all outside the ground. Only stewards on duty inside The Valley.Going by @TootingRedArmy's figures to have 6 Policemen on gate duty would have cost a LOT. The club obviously don't want to pay for Policing inside the ground and are prepared to suck up any incidents.
But taking it that we are experiencing some kind of tear in the space time continuum or a parallel universe. Why were there no police at the nearest point to Gate 21 where the club don't have to pay? It's a valid question. There were 300 of them FFS, there are two points where the Millwall fans can potentially get out and kick off. 50% of them are that gate. If the police are so determined to avoid potential flashpoints that they are prepared to inconvenience 20000 Charlton fans, why did they not deploy half a dozen of their finest to that particular bit of street?
I have never been involved in crowd control in my life, but if I had 300 employees stood around doing fuck all for a couple of hours and I had two entrances/exits to cover, I would have worked out that it might be an idea to positon a few of them at each...
Hope this helps1 -
Got to get your priorities right 👍Baldybonce said:
Yes i agree. The 'intelligence led policing' seems to have been every copper knew where Costa coffee was.Algarveaddick said:
Yes it does. The area to which I am referring is here. If a van load had been there rather than on Woolwich Road supping coffee they could have responded in seconds.Baldybonce said:
Outside of gate 21 is within the ground.Algarveaddick said:
Schrodingers gate? How can outside the ground be inside the ground, BB?Baldybonce said:
Outside gate 21 is still inside the ground where the only Police on duty were inside or just outside of the control room.Algarveaddick said:Baldybonce said:
Cost. Simple as that.Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
I did say stationed outside Gate 21, guys. And I meant half a dozen of the 300 odd that were already being paid to be on duty, most of them seemed to be doing sod all else by all accounts?Weegie Addick said:Algarveaddick said:Forgive me if I am going over old ground (in a thread this long I suspect I am), but regarding the "Gate 21 Incident". As far as I know, other than the pitch, there are just two exits from the away end, the same way they come in and Gate 21? So with nearly 300 OB on duty, why in the name of Curbishley were there not half a dozen of them stationed outside Gate 21 for the duration?
The police were all outside the ground. Only stewards on duty inside The Valley.Going by @TootingRedArmy's figures to have 6 Policemen on gate duty would have cost a LOT. The club obviously don't want to pay for Policing inside the ground and are prepared to suck up any incidents.
But taking it that we are experiencing some kind of tear in the space time continuum or a parallel universe. Why were there no police at the nearest point to Gate 21 where the club don't have to pay? It's a valid question. There were 300 of them FFS, there are two points where the Millwall fans can potentially get out and kick off. 50% of them are that gate. If the police are so determined to avoid potential flashpoints that they are prepared to inconvenience 20000 Charlton fans, why did they not deploy half a dozen of their finest to that particular bit of street?
I have never been involved in crowd control in my life, but if I had 300 employees stood around doing fuck all for a couple of hours and I had two entrances/exits to cover, I would have worked out that it might be an idea to positon a few of them at each...
Hope this helps0 -
I pointed this example out to the Trust on X when they responded to someone this cannot be donepaulbaconsarnie said:I recall one season a club (Forest I think) charged us extortionate prices for our game at their place so for the home game against them, we introduced a ‘membership’ price for the covered end, which was the normal match day price, but the non member price reciprocated what they charged us at the away game. We then applied that to the Jimmy Seed stand (as we must) but didn’t accept any applications for the membership package without proof that you were CAFC fan.1 -
As others have said Met police can be in position outside Bartrum Gates or in Valley Grove?
why do the club give them 3K allocation when they give us 2K at The Den?
I would even go further and reduce to 1K-1.5K max Millwall away allocation, if Millwall question it say
MET Police "can't police the away end" and your fans attacked Charlton fans at last match
sorry bad behaviour deserves consequences. Yes we will lose revenue but stewarding and police costs can
be reduced and a smaller Millwall contingent hopefully will encourage more home ticket sales
Or last chance salon.... bus them in, charge £25 for bus & £27 for ticket.
They get given ticket on arrival in rtn for an ID when they're dropped back at The Den give their ID Back.
Millwall can happily sing "No one likes us we don't care" .......
well guess what we don't and if they can't behave then their are consequences......
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The EFL rules are much tighter on this stuff now.JohnnyH2 said:
I pointed this example out to the Trust on X when they responded to someone this cannot be donepaulbaconsarnie said:I recall one season a club (Forest I think) charged us extortionate prices for our game at their place so for the home game against them, we introduced a ‘membership’ price for the covered end, which was the normal match day price, but the non member price reciprocated what they charged us at the away game. We then applied that to the Jimmy Seed stand (as we must) but didn’t accept any applications for the membership package without proof that you were CAFC fan.0 -
The full away allocation at 'The Den' is 3,024, EFL rules state the away allocation has to be 2,000 or 10% if the stadium capacity is smaller than 20,000.TootingRedArmy said:As others have said Met police can be in position outside Bartrum Gates or in Valley Grove?
why do the club give them 3K allocation when they give us 2K at The Den?
I would even go further and reduce to 1K-1.5K max Millwall away allocation, if Millwall question it say
MET Police "can't police the away end" and your fans attacked Charlton fans at last match
sorry bad behaviour deserves consequences. Yes we will lose revenue but stewarding and police costs can
be reduced and a smaller Millwall contingent hopefully will encourage more home ticket sales
Or last chance salon.... bus them in, charge £25 for bus & £27 for ticket.
They get given ticket on arrival in rtn for an ID when they're dropped back at The Den give their ID Back.
Millwall can happily sing "No one likes us we don't care" .......
well guess what we don't and if they can't behave then their are consequences......
Although i agree with most of you're previous points raised on this thread, my biggest grievance is still why the post-match arrangements were not communicated properly to home fans before, during & after the match.
The plans made for home fans after the game can never work safely in a large crowd unless properly communicated & probably will never work with a crowd over 20,000.
Comparing arrangements for Millwall fans at other stadiums is not valid, as every stadium is different in its location, surrounding roads, railway stations etc.
At QPR for instance both sets of fans exited the ground at the same time & Millwall fans had a longer trek to the nearest tube stations.
Other than the incident at gate 21 the day probably passed off incident free & the club & Met police will claim the arrangements were a success.
As for where were the 297 police officers, there were probably 50 of them in Woolwich from 9am outside various pubs including the Elephant & Castle & The Great Harry, pubs which are licensed to open at 8am.
On a separate point i think that the 'fan engagement' plan is a complete shambles with people unsure who to contact & then when they try to contact the numerous Advocates, Advisors, Reps etc they are met with a wall of silence, except for CAST of course. The only time we hear or have heard from the supporters reps was when they were chasing votes for their roles. This club seems to go through more Supporter Liaison Officers than Nottm Forest has gone through team managers.'
Since the Millwall game i now seem get the same survey after every home game from the club asking about my 'matchday experience', why?
Will we ever get to see the results of these surveys?
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Less scum in the away end will only mean more pond life in the home end2
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THIS with knobs on, Clive.clive said:
The full away allocation at 'The Den' is 3,024, EFL rules state the away allocation has to be 2,000 or 10% if the stadium capacity is smaller than 20,000.TootingRedArmy said:As others have said Met police can be in position outside Bartrum Gates or in Valley Grove?
why do the club give them 3K allocation when they give us 2K at The Den?
I would even go further and reduce to 1K-1.5K max Millwall away allocation, if Millwall question it say
MET Police "can't police the away end" and your fans attacked Charlton fans at last match
sorry bad behaviour deserves consequences. Yes we will lose revenue but stewarding and police costs can
be reduced and a smaller Millwall contingent hopefully will encourage more home ticket sales
Or last chance salon.... bus them in, charge £25 for bus & £27 for ticket.
They get given ticket on arrival in rtn for an ID when they're dropped back at The Den give their ID Back.
Millwall can happily sing "No one likes us we don't care" .......
well guess what we don't and if they can't behave then their are consequences......
Although i agree with most of you're previous points raised on this thread, my biggest grievance is still why the post-match arrangements were not communicated properly to home fans before, during & after the match.
The plans made for home fans after the game can never work safely in a large crowd unless properly communicated & probably will never work with a crowd over 20,000.
Comparing arrangements for Millwall fans at other stadiums is not valid, as every stadium is different in its location, surrounding roads, railway stations etc.
At QPR for instance both sets of fans exited the ground at the same time & Millwall fans had a longer trek to the nearest tube stations.
Other than the incident at gate 21 the day probably passed off incident free & the club & Met police will claim the arrangements were a success.
As for where were the 297 police officers, there were probably 50 of them in Woolwich from 9am outside various pubs including the Elephant & Castle & The Great Harry, pubs which are licensed to open at 8am.
On a separate point i think that the 'fan engagement' plan is a complete shambles with people unsure who to contact & then when they try to contact the numerous Advocates, Advisors, Reps etc they are met with a wall of silence, except for CAST of course. The only time we hear or have heard from the supporters reps was when they were chasing votes for their roles. This club seems to go through more Supporter Liaison Officers than Nottm Forest has gone through team managers.'
Since the Millwall game i now seem get the same survey after every home game from the club asking about my 'matchday experience', why?
Will we ever get to see the results of these surveys?0 -
Clive -you made some excellent points regarding where the police "might" have been allocated likewise fan engagement
re: The full away allocation at 'The Den' is 3,024, EFL rules state the away allocation has to be 2,000
or 10% if the stadium capacity is smaller than 20,000.
confused does this mean we could decide to sell only 2000 tickets to Millwall in JS ?
if so lets do it a 1000 Millwall, would make case for keeping them behind stronger, wouldn't it......Mr Police commander?
what was our allocation at The Den last time we played there, weren't we just in the upper deck of the away end and not whole end?
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It’s not what we did in any case.Weegie Addick said:
The EFL rules are much tighter on this stuff now.JohnnyH2 said:
I pointed this example out to the Trust on X when they responded to someone this cannot be donepaulbaconsarnie said:I recall one season a club (Forest I think) charged us extortionate prices for our game at their place so for the home game against them, we introduced a ‘membership’ price for the covered end, which was the normal match day price, but the non member price reciprocated what they charged us at the away game. We then applied that to the Jimmy Seed stand (as we must) but didn’t accept any applications for the membership package without proof that you were CAFC fan.0 -
The club’s explanation for the lack of comms is pitiful and should just be rejected point blank by CAST. As for the fan engagement structure, it’s been designed to deflect criticism. It’s a Potemkin village.clive said:
The full away allocation at 'The Den' is 3,024, EFL rules state the away allocation has to be 2,000 or 10% if the stadium capacity is smaller than 20,000.TootingRedArmy said:As others have said Met police can be in position outside Bartrum Gates or in Valley Grove?
why do the club give them 3K allocation when they give us 2K at The Den?
I would even go further and reduce to 1K-1.5K max Millwall away allocation, if Millwall question it say
MET Police "can't police the away end" and your fans attacked Charlton fans at last match
sorry bad behaviour deserves consequences. Yes we will lose revenue but stewarding and police costs can
be reduced and a smaller Millwall contingent hopefully will encourage more home ticket sales
Or last chance salon.... bus them in, charge £25 for bus & £27 for ticket.
They get given ticket on arrival in rtn for an ID when they're dropped back at The Den give their ID Back.
Millwall can happily sing "No one likes us we don't care" .......
well guess what we don't and if they can't behave then their are consequences......
Although i agree with most of you're previous points raised on this thread, my biggest grievance is still why the post-match arrangements were not communicated properly to home fans before, during & after the match.
The plans made for home fans after the game can never work safely in a large crowd unless properly communicated & probably will never work with a crowd over 20,000.
Comparing arrangements for Millwall fans at other stadiums is not valid, as every stadium is different in its location, surrounding roads, railway stations etc.
At QPR for instance both sets of fans exited the ground at the same time & Millwall fans had a longer trek to the nearest tube stations.
Other than the incident at gate 21 the day probably passed off incident free & the club & Met police will claim the arrangements were a success.
As for where were the 297 police officers, there were probably 50 of them in Woolwich from 9am outside various pubs including the Elephant & Castle & The Great Harry, pubs which are licensed to open at 8am.
On a separate point i think that the 'fan engagement' plan is a complete shambles with people unsure who to contact & then when they try to contact the numerous Advocates, Advisors, Reps etc they are met with a wall of silence, except for CAST of course. The only time we hear or have heard from the supporters reps was when they were chasing votes for their roles. This club seems to go through more Supporter Liaison Officers than Nottm Forest has gone through team managers.'
Since the Millwall game i now seem get the same survey after every home game from the club asking about my 'matchday experience', why?
Will we ever get to see the results of these surveys?0
