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After the Millwall game - club reply to CAST p34, further CAST response p45

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  • TootingRedArmy
    TootingRedArmy Posts: 429
    edited October 3
    PragueAddick said:
    I really wish, @DOUCHER, that you’d stop taking pops at your fellow Charlton fans (CAST) because it detracts from the very good point that you are right to keep asserting; that (regardless of recent exceptions, all in London) it is highly irregular to hold back or divert home fans to assist away fans. And what’s more, this obviously ridiculous practice has the potential to create serious safety issues, as this thread has identified.

    We are falling into the trap of thinking about this as “football fans”, i.e.  a violence-prone underclass who do not deserve the same protection from the police ( our servants, whose salaries we pay) as normal citizens. We are normal citizens. The 20k Charlton fans who turned up  represent  virtually every part of British society and the vast majority of them just wanted to enjoy the footie with their families and friends, and had no desire whatsoever to engage with any Spanners, violent or otherwise. They should no more be kept back after the game than should opera-goers be held back while the surrounding pubs are emptied.

    The police justification for this action is inadequate and in part objectively incorrect . We should now take this up with our respective MPs. We should stress the safety aspects and not be afraid to use the word “Hillsborough” when we do it. I hope CAST will do this with Matt Pennycook since he is ( still, I hope) a CAST member. I will write to my MP, Clive Efford. He is ironically a Spanner, but also a good guy with a track record of seeking the best for footie fans. I’d urge everyone else with MPs in Charlton’s catchment area to do the same.
    Agree, there is no justification for police not holding Millwall fans back at The Valley.  Fans can of course contact their MP & maybe this will help etc but a very strong statement from Charlton, CAST & Fan Advisers is what is needed, really simple "next time Millwall play at The Valley, away support are held back"
    Actions which could be taken are, Charlton paying for police officers in JS, look at stewards they deploy not students but use trained security stewards (which are used in clubs etc) in JS, reduce allocation to 2K (same as Den), No alcholol served in JS stand bars
    & things to consider  requesting from MET, SKY 11.30am or 12.00 KO.
    Lastly if Police "really" can't control football fans inside a stadium (really?) reduce Millwall's allocation to 1K and coach them in from Den & back.(Like old firm matches, Pompey away at Saints etc).....
    Raise Millwall Away ticket price  to max under EFL rules to offset costs, but its not about profit this match  about 20,000 Charlton fans exiting the ground as they do at every Home match.
  • PragueAddick
    PragueAddick Posts: 22,174
    Off_it said:
    Clive Efford now represents the "Prague West" ward does he? Well I never!
    Yes, yes, very strong

    One of the few good things Sunak did was to quietly accept that if you are a British citizen you should be able to vote, otherwise WTF is the meaning of the word “citizen”. He abolished the limit imposed on traitors who remain non-resident for 15 years or more. I had got round it and the associated restrictions on having a UK bank account, by “living” at my sister’s place, so it’s nice that I have been able to move out 😉

    Seriously, you should write in. MPs are good at spotting letters from constituents who are not “the usual suspects”, and your take on this is pretty sharp. Depends where you live though, I suppose.
  • shirty5
    shirty5 Posts: 19,247
    https://www.castrust.org/2025/10/supporter-forum-october-16th/
  • Hex
    Hex Posts: 1,894
    Covered End said:
    They didn't do it to assist the away fans.
    They did it to get them out of the area asap with the least possible engagement.
    How could they “get them out of the area asap” when there was no effort to get them out of the ground in the first place ?
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,916
    PragueAddick said:
    I really wish, @DOUCHER, that you’d stop taking pops at your fellow Charlton fans (CAST) because it detracts from the very good point that you are right to keep asserting; that (regardless of recent exceptions, all in London) it is highly irregular to hold back or divert home fans to assist away fans. And what’s more, this obviously ridiculous practice has the potential to create serious safety issues, as this thread has identified.

    We are falling into the trap of thinking about this as “football fans”, i.e.  a violence-prone underclass who do not deserve the same protection from the police ( our servants, whose salaries we pay) as normal citizens. We are normal citizens. The 20k Charlton fans who turned up  represent  virtually every part of British society and the vast majority of them just wanted to enjoy the footie with their families and friends, and had no desire whatsoever to engage with any Spanners, violent or otherwise. They should no more be kept back after the game than should opera-goers be held back while the surrounding pubs are emptied.

    The police justification for this action is inadequate and in part objectively incorrect . We should now take this up with our respective MPs. We should stress the safety aspects and not be afraid to use the word “Hillsborough” when we do it. I hope CAST will do this with Matt Pennycook since he is ( still, I hope) a CAST member. I will write to my MP, Clive Efford. He is ironically a Spanner, but also a good guy with a track record of seeking the best for footie fans. I’d urge everyone else with MPs in Charlton’s catchment area to do the same.
    Its frustrating that that point isn't front and centre of CAST's questions or Airman Brown's piece and I don't understand why. As i pointed out, if you only address the safety issues, the police will just hold us in and not give the option to have a ridiculous and hazzardous long walk.  As such, the only platform i have to vent this is on here as i've so far been fobbed off by the club and the police as it is easy to do so to an individual. My only route now appears to be to contact a Millwall supporting MP? I may do this and i will continue to try and get answers from the police. 
  • TootingRedArmy
    TootingRedArmy Posts: 429
    edited October 3
    The problem is society wide, public, customers, fans are all treated with contempt and any answers or requests are sent into a labyrinth of cul de sacs, call centres, surveys and weasly statements....I haven't heard or read that anyone thinks Millwall being let out and 20,000 Charlton fans diverted (unsafely) was a good idea or saying please can this be the new normal. Go on someone at club, CAST come out and question MET ridiculous statement.......Get reassurance this won't happen again and is unacceptable.
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 11,389
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 52,053
    fenaddick said:
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
    Christ, Doucher won’t like that as it’s only us (and Palace and Ipswich).
  • TootingRedArmy
    TootingRedArmy Posts: 429
    edited October 3
    The game kicks-off at 12pm on Sunday 5 October at Portman Road for Tractor Boys v Canaries 
    Looks like Suffolk police have restricted access from 10.30am till 30mins after.
    so Charlton v Millwall could be a 12.00 KO? 

  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 11,389
    TootingRedArmy said:
    The game kicks-off at 12pm on Sunday 5 October at Portman Road for Tractor Boys v Canaries 
    Looks like Suffolk police have restricted access from 10.30am till 30mins after.
    so Charlton v Millwall could be a 12.00 KO? 

    Not sure a half an hour difference would change much but yes it could be. I think this is a Sky decision rather than a police one but that's a bit of a guess

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  • PragueAddick
    PragueAddick Posts: 22,174
    Covered End said:
    fenaddick said:
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
    Christ, Doucher won’t like that as it’s only us (and Palace and Ipswich).
    Well now you are turning on a fellow fan too. Please lets stop this and focus on the real villains, eh? 

    I’ve been to Portman Road relatively recently (horrible trip by train for an evening game,) but have no idea of the geography, so it would be useful to see what Ipswich fan sites have to say about this before drawing conclusions. 
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 11,389
    PragueAddick said:
    Covered End said:
    fenaddick said:
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
    Christ, Doucher won’t like that as it’s only us (and Palace and Ipswich).
    Well now you are turning on a fellow fan too. Please lets stop this and focus on the real villains, eh? 

    I’ve been to Portman Road relatively recently (horrible trip by train for an evening game,) but have no idea of the geography, so it would be useful to see what Ipswich fan sites have to say about this before drawing conclusions. 
    I did have a look on their forum and couldn't see anything but it is badly formatted so I could have missed something!
  • TootingRedArmy
    TootingRedArmy Posts: 429
    edited October 3
    seems other forces like Suffolk and Hampshire come up with solutions..... 

    hard to know if SKY or Suffolk police decided on a Sunday midday KO @ Portman rd 
    but you can see logic with pubs not open and less of general public around on Sunday morning 

    Police on south coast .... Saints v Pompey 

    https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/25465243.m27-convoy-portsmouth-fans-southampton-derby/

    A convoy of buses full of Portsmouth FC fans have been seen driving on the M27 towards Southampton for today's south coast derby.

    Saints meet their arch rivals at St Mary's today for league competition for the first time in 13 years, and Portsmouth fans are only allowed to attend the game if they travel to the stadium on club-provided transport.

    Over 10 coaches and buses filled with 2,700 rival supporters have been spotted by Saints fans coming across the M27, with traffic being stopped at points to allow the coaches to travel together in a police convoy.

    READ MORE: LIVE: Huge police operation gets underway ahead of Saints v Portsmouth

    One eyewitness, who wanted to stay anonymous, said: "We were held by a police motorcyclist to allow over 10 coaches & buses filled with Pompey supporters coming off at Junction Five of the M27 just after 9am.

    "They were heavily escorted by the police."

    Tickets for the game were only handed to Portsmouth fans when they boarded the coach towards the stadium, where they had to show photo ID to get on.

    A Portsmouth FC spokesperson said before the game: "As previously communicated, supporters attending the game will be required to use club-managed travel to get to and from the stadium.

    "The club are aware that this may prove inconvenient for some supporters, but this measure is designed to ensure the safety of everyone attending the game, so they have an enjoyable matchday experience."

  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 11,389
    A reminder that if you do a bubble game for our home game they'll have to do it for us going away too. That means everyone getting to The Valley hours before KO
  • TootingRedArmy
    TootingRedArmy Posts: 429
    edited October 3
    we're caged in as it is for 40mins+ after the match and its 2K Addicks at Den
    versus 20K Addicks for home fixture so all what is being asked is to get parity for home and away fixtures
    12.00 or 12.30 KO is same really, but Sunday early fix might help? 

  • Baldybonce
    Baldybonce Posts: 9,667
    TootingRedArmy said:
    we're caged in as it is for 40mins+ after the match and its 2K Addicks at Den
    versus 20K Addicks for home fixture so all what is being asked is to get parity for home and away fixtures
    12.00 or 12.30 KO is same really, but Sunday early fix might help? 

    But what about the Charlton fans who travel in?
    Just more inconvenience for us.
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,916
    Covered End said:
    fenaddick said:
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
    Christ, Doucher won’t like that as it’s only us (and Palace and Ipswich).
    TBH if it’s done at other grounds, although I don’t agree with it, I could accept it - looks to me like that is just the road going to the station that is closed to ipswich fans - plenty other other roads open unlike at Charlton 
  • WrightCharlie
    WrightCharlie Posts: 747
    My apologies if this has already been covered off in previous pages.
    I assume (& hope) the Met has the responsibility for preventing and policing situations of public disorder and/or safety both inside and outside football grounds, no matter at which stage of the fixture they occur?
    There are 3 ways out of the Jimmy Seed stand, onto the pitch, through the Sam Bartrum entrance/gate 21 and out to Floyd Road. Wouldn't it be good practice and common sense to be able to commit police resources pdq to any of these areas, at any time, in the event of something?
    If 295 (?) coppers aren't enough to allow what I would regard as proper policing for the duration of the fixture then let's include that one in the lessons learned for next time list.
  • ElfsborgAddick
    ElfsborgAddick Posts: 29,172
    DOUCHER said:
    Covered End said:
    fenaddick said:
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
    Christ, Doucher won’t like that as it’s only us (and Palace and Ipswich).
    TBH if it’s done at other grounds, although I don’t agree with it, I could accept it - looks to me like that is just the road going to the station that is closed to ipswich fans - plenty other other roads open unlike at Charlton 

    I have not looked at the map but knowing the layout of Portman Road there is minimum impact on home fans, UNLIKE at The Valley.
  • Off_it
    Off_it Posts: 28,905
    ElfsborgAddick said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Covered End said:
    fenaddick said:
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
    Christ, Doucher won’t like that as it’s only us (and Palace and Ipswich).
    TBH if it’s done at other grounds, although I don’t agree with it, I could accept it - looks to me like that is just the road going to the station that is closed to ipswich fans - plenty other other roads open unlike at Charlton 

    I have not looked at the map but knowing the layout of Portman Road there is minimum impact on home fans, UNLIKE at The Valley.
    Agree. At Charlton the "plan" was to funnel the contents of three home stands - 20,000 people, give or take the few who left the East via the Bartram Entrance and risked being attacked! - all down one relatively small road. A crazy idea. 

    That's obviously partly due to the geography of our ground compared to the likes of Ipswich, as we have a cliff at one end and a railway line running along the other, but to me that is ALL THE MORE REASON to hold the Millwall fans back to allow the majority of people to clear the area. As happens everywhere else.

    Ridiculous plan on safety grounds and downright insulting to us as a fanbase. That's on the Old Bill.

    The silence from the Club is just shitty.

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  • TootingRedArmy
    TootingRedArmy Posts: 429
    Silence from the club is deafening, they have just kicked it down the road to Oct 16th fan forum when they will no doubt kick the can further down the road.....
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 11,389
    TootingRedArmy said:
    Silence from the club is deafening, they have just kicked it down the road to Oct 16th fan forum when they will no doubt kick the can further down the road.....
    That’s a minuted meeting where the minutes are posted on the website so will be interesting to see what they say 
  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,916
    fenaddick said:
    TootingRedArmy said:
    Silence from the club is deafening, they have just kicked it down the road to Oct 16th fan forum when they will no doubt kick the can further down the road.....
    That’s a minuted meeting where the minutes are posted on the website so will be interesting to see what they say 
    Be interested to see if my question gets read out 
  • fenaddick
    fenaddick Posts: 11,389
    DOUCHER said:
    fenaddick said:
    TootingRedArmy said:
    Silence from the club is deafening, they have just kicked it down the road to Oct 16th fan forum when they will no doubt kick the can further down the road.....
    That’s a minuted meeting where the minutes are posted on the website so will be interesting to see what they say 
    Be interested to see if my question gets read out 
    Not sure the minutes will be detailed enough to quite tell that but we should get some information on what the club say they’ve learned etc
  • ElfsborgAddick
    ElfsborgAddick Posts: 29,172
    Off_it said:
    ElfsborgAddick said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Covered End said:
    fenaddick said:
    I don't know the geography around Portman Road but sounds like Ipswich fans might be being re-routed a bit this weekend for the visit of Norwich

    https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/october/ipswich--police-plans-in-place-for-east-anglian-derby/
    Christ, Doucher won’t like that as it’s only us (and Palace and Ipswich).
    TBH if it’s done at other grounds, although I don’t agree with it, I could accept it - looks to me like that is just the road going to the station that is closed to ipswich fans - plenty other other roads open unlike at Charlton 

    I have not looked at the map but knowing the layout of Portman Road there is minimum impact on home fans, UNLIKE at The Valley.
    Agree. At Charlton the "plan" was to funnel the contents of three home stands - 20,000 people, give or take the few who left the East via the Bartram Entrance and risked being attacked! - all down one relatively small road. A crazy idea. 

    That's obviously partly due to the geography of our ground compared to the likes of Ipswich, as we have a cliff at one end and a railway line running along the other, but to me that is ALL THE MORE REASON to hold the Millwall fans back to allow the majority of people to clear the area. As happens everywhere else.

    Ridiculous plan on safety grounds and downright insulting to us as a fanbase. That's on the Old Bill.

    The silence from the Club is just shitty.

    This with bells on.
  • ken from bexley
    ken from bexley Posts: 5,087
    What a disingenuous reply from the police.I think the best thing is to get the local MP's on to this.especially Matthew Pennycook, perhaps a government minister might have some more leverage, and it could be discussed  as a priority. 
    Not impressed at all, and I certainly will not be attending this fixture, as an elderly person with mobility issues, and not taking my grandson which is our loss. 

    So much for football being a family event, and I used to enjoy games against the Palace and Millwall, despite our poor performances in previous years. I did not go to the game and watched it on TV, and had a poor experience when we played them at the Valley last time, which I wrote about on the match before hand on the morning of the game. 

    I feel that bad behaviour has been rewarded, and  hope the matter is  not dropped,  





  • Six-a-bag-of-nuts
    Six-a-bag-of-nuts Posts: 8,130
    edited October 4
    Don't understand why anybody would "laugh out loud" at the last post
     
  • PragueAddick
    PragueAddick Posts: 22,174
    So in fact @castrust DID ask plod why they didnt hold back the Millwall fans…..in 2017. Worth reading the whole thing. Especially the bit where plod promise to take supporters views into account the next time we played the Spanners. 

  • TootingRedArmy
    TootingRedArmy Posts: 429
    edited October 16
    So Oct 16th is the 'fans forum" with the club has finally come about tomorrow
    Lets hope all fan representatives attending this meeting,  loudly say never again.....

    *In future matches Millwall fans must be locked in JS stand at the end of the game and Home fans allowed to exit the Valley as they do for every other game.
     
    *Ask what 297 police were doing at this match and what are the future plans for policing and stewarding high risk matches in particular Millwalls next visit?

    Have the police followed up with any arrests on Millwall fans who attacked Charlton fans after breaking through Gate 21, with clear photos widely shared on social media of the attackers?

    Question the shoddy way club SMT & Comms dept communicated plans before, during and after?

    & What were the results of the survey about Match Day experience? 



  • DOUCHER
    DOUCHER Posts: 7,916
    Anybody heard anything from the Fans Forum on this which i assume took place yesterday?   

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