Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
Wasn’t that bad but I don’t see why we should be inconvenienced at the expense of Millwall - that is all I care about - it happened once before and it’s happened again and if we don’t take appropriate measures then it’s gonna happen again - put up or shut up - if we don’t do something about it then we will just have to shut up and take it
I get that.. but it's not as if people wasn't aware it was going to happen! They have found a successful way of getting the Millwall fans away, with little trouble. They will see that as a win. They are not going to be overly worried about a few 100 Charlton fans complaining on forums and social media are they?
They have bigger fish to fry..
I wasn't there either, but I have read what others have said about how the arrangements were communicated, and it was so poor and last minute that many, many people were clearly not aware that it was going to happen. In addition, for many others it would have been their first experience of a Charlton v Millwall game, so they would not even think to look to see if an almost unique situation in football policing was about to unfold. Why would they?
Various people who have professional experience of health and safety have commented that the situation had real potential to become dangerous - indeed it appears it became very close to it on Charlton Lane near and on the level crossing, by the sound of things.
Millwall fans are being given special treatment because their fans are more likely to break the law. It is worrying that anybody would consider that acceptable no matter how many people complain about it, or where they do the complaining.
250 odd police had one job to do on the day, fish or no fish, that was their sole (geddit) task in hand. They should have gone about it in the same way it is done thousands of times every year all over the UK.
I’m puzzled why some are downplaying legitimate fan concerns. This thread continues because of the club’s poor response. Fan safety must always come first: keep Millwall fans locked in, use the large police and steward presence to ensure a safe stadium and exit, and clearly communicate plans both beforehand and on the day.
Three further points that I forgot to add to my previous post were these:- The crowd moving along Harvey Gardens when I saw it was shoulder to shoulder and moving very slowly in a relatively confined space. Not good.
Once someone committed themselves to going in that direction there was zero chance of reversing the situation. Not good.
There were a lot of kids being taken in that direction who were small and vulnerable (I’m not criticising parents/guardians here as they were following police guidelines and may not have been aware of the risk). Not good.
I don’t post on here very often at all and I haven’t read all the other comments on this subject coming into the thread with Dubai’s post. I did attend the Millwall game and sat in the Upper West. Early in my career I served as a fire fighter in Liverpool and saw a few games at the Old Kop and experienced the crowds after those matches. My observation after the Millwall game was as follows:- knowing the decision was to close Floyd Rd to Charlton fans after the match I came out fully expecting to turn right along Harvey Gardens and then head back up to Charlton Park Rd. As I’m 6ft 4 I could see pretty much the situation down Harvey Gardens. My decision? Not a chance was I walking down there. No way. It hadn’t developed into a crush situation and maybe never would have but all it needed was a fight, a heart attack or a fall. Any and more situations like that and there could have been a serious incident, maybe a fatality. So I turned left walked up to the police barrier, sat on a wall chatted to a police officer and one of the other fans until the barrier was lifted after about 20 minutes. Then walked home. My first match at the Valley was between 1964/5. Serious crowds then, but no issues that I can remember because all the exits were open. My belief is that the Millwall fans should have been kept back. I don’t like seeing a situation develop where the outcome relies on luck when people’s lives are at stake.
I suspect we got lucky and it should never be left to luck. That's why we need assurances that there are processes in place for crowd safety, not just from a policing perspective, but emergency response more widely.
Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
Wasn’t that bad but I don’t see why we should be inconvenienced at the expense of Millwall - that is all I care about - it happened once before and it’s happened again and if we don’t take appropriate measures then it’s gonna happen again - put up or shut up - if we don’t do something about it then we will just have to shut up and take it
I get that.. but it's not as if people wasn't aware it was going to happen! They have found a successful way of getting the Millwall fans away, with little trouble. They will see that as a win. They are not going to be overly worried about a few 100 Charlton fans complaining on forums and social media are they?
They have bigger fish to fry..
alright, i tell u what, i'll just ignore it and moan when it happens again next time shall i? - i've put a police complaint in and we'll see how we go
And the truth is that other than the odd skirmish, there hasn't been any major bother since the 70's in this fixture so 250 police should easily be able to handle breaking up the odd fight and just letting us out at the same time. Failing that, hold them back, not us !!!
The police sent us round the houses because they didn't want to deal with 3000+ irate Millwall fans if they were held back. End of story.
Charlton without a shadow of doubt did not sufficiently communicate the situation either deliberately or due to incompetence.
The clear evidence is the thousands of people heading towards the station with no one directing them correctly.
The best solution next season is to limit Millwall fans to the minimum that we are allowed to and keep them in with enough stewards and police to deal with them properly.
The additional costs of this should be covered by the sale of home tickets that will presumably be lost next season, with a much lower home fan attendance, due to home fans not putting up with the dangerous inconvenience.
20,000 home fans V Millwall was the highest for 50 odd years and will not be repeated for a long time unless Charlton fans are given assurances that Millwall fans will be held back.
The policing and stewarding should obviously cover the Jimmy Seed gate at the Curbs Stand/Bartram Gate/Lansdowne Lane exit.
The police sent us round the houses because they didn't want to deal with 3000+ irate Millwall fans if they were held back. End of story.
Charlton without a shadow of doubt did not sufficiently communicate the situation either deliberately or due to incompetence.
The clear evidence is the thousands of people heading towards the station with no one directing them correctly.
The best solution next season is to limit Millwall fans to the minimum that we are allowed to and keep them in with enough stewards and police to deal with them properly.
The additional costs of this should be covered by the sale of home tickets that will presumably be lost next season, with a much lower home fan attendance, due to home fans not putting up with the dangerous inconvenience.
20,000 home fans V Millwall was the highest for 50 odd years and will not be repeated for a long time unless Charlton fans are given assurances that Millwall fans will be held back.
The policing and stewarding should obviously cover the Jimmy Seed gate at the Curbs Stand/Bartram Gate/Lansdowne Lane exit.
This post sums up brilliantly someone who went to the game and posted on this thread and some of those who have posted who did not go
Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
Wasn’t that bad but I don’t see why we should be inconvenienced at the expense of Millwall - that is all I care about - it happened once before and it’s happened again and if we don’t take appropriate measures then it’s gonna happen again - put up or shut up - if we don’t do something about it then we will just have to shut up and take it
I get that.. but it's not as if people wasn't aware it was going to happen! They have found a successful way of getting the Millwall fans away, with little trouble. They will see that as a win. They are not going to be overly worried about a few 100 Charlton fans complaining on forums and social media are they?
They have bigger fish to fry..
Agree……though the club should be worried.
My take for what it is worth. I was in Upper West. I got out fairly quickly and as I have some mobility issues and have had a heart issue, I made my way to Ransom Walk and a line of Police were preventing some, including me from getting there, so I joined the walk, wasn't that arduous - for me - but was inconvenient.
A large part of the blame on the day must lie with the police. They made the "access" decision very late and given that they had made the same decision 5 years earlier, they must have known they were going to make it. Then their sub standard implementation - Ransom Walk, Traffic Control, the invisible 250 plus police.
Where do the Club come into it? I honestly believe that the owners of club does have the best interests of the fans and are not, geared solely by filthy lucre, as some would have us believe.
Mistakes have been made and one of the biggest errors has been communication. If pre and post communication had been clearer and more accepting then there would not be 1.3k posts on this thread.
- Prior to the match - details of the re routing, giving multiple levels of exposure - the big(ish) Screen, social media, website, tannoy and the club should be cognisant with the fact that the sound system appears to be as out dated as the floodlights
- During the match flashing up on the screen -yes it would have been annoying, but the message would have got through.
- Post match is again communications. Once it had all gone "tits up" the club should have anticipated the outrage and issued a statement, prempting CAST. They may not have been in a position to give a full evaluation of the situation but they could have said they were investigating and give a time line, whilst addressing issues that they could address. Specifically they could have said that:-
- The process was set by the Met and if they had input into this.
- Acknowledge the break through of Millwall fans and a commitment to have this gate effectively manned for future games. They should also praise the two stewards, for whom holding back "the hordes" was beyond their pay grades. I do not understand why at the very least a potential flash point such as this not at least have the guys that wear (I think) wear the blue vests and are more of an aggressive force able to deal with trouble.
-The future
The Club cannot ignore the police so, if Millwall are not relegated and we are not promoted, then at the very least arrangements should be clearly communicated. But the club must make a clear commitment to engage with the Met to restore the stadium vacation process adopted for all other games.
Finally, people have asked why the club have not learnt from 2019. Well we have had multiple owners, staff turnaround, people with experience have left or are working part time and I doubt anyone developing operating procedures.
Hopefully a more stable club, with owners that I believe do care, lessons will be learnt and implemented and pressure will be put on the Met and I suspect Greenwich Council to implement a more reasonable process to manage fans, but don't count on it.
The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.
The police made the call and the club have to comply.
The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.
The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.
Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.
There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be different
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!
They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good bar
Yes that’s true.
I just don’t think there is much to uncover.
A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.
The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.
Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66? How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?
Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
They are some of the basic requirements of the safety licence as far as i can glean and all reasonable questions in light of what happened/ did not happen at the south east corner at the ed of the match.
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.
The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.
Normally games pass without great issue.
A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.
I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.
That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.
There were many “serious incidents” in the Leppings Lane end before 1989, notably at semi finals in 1981, 1987 and 1988.
You are right, I stand corrected - although my quick AI question only produced the 1981 incident which was indeed very dangerous - and in the Inquiry questions were asked as to why the lessons were not learnt.
Do you disagree with the rest of my comment, which is the part that I'd hope is the important bit?
Comments
Various people who have professional experience of health and safety have commented that the situation had real potential to become dangerous - indeed it appears it became very close to it on Charlton Lane near and on the level crossing, by the sound of things.
Millwall fans are being given special treatment because their fans are more likely to break the law. It is worrying that anybody would consider that acceptable no matter how many people complain about it, or where they do the complaining.
250 odd police had one job to do on the day, fish or no fish, that was their sole (geddit) task in hand. They should have gone about it in the same way it is done thousands of times every year all over the UK.
The crowd moving along Harvey Gardens when I saw it was shoulder to shoulder and moving very slowly in a relatively confined space. Not good.
Once someone committed themselves to going in that direction there was zero chance of reversing the situation. Not good.
There were a lot of kids being taken in that direction who were small and vulnerable (I’m not criticising parents/guardians here as they were following police guidelines and may not have been aware of the risk). Not good.
I suspect we got lucky and it should never be left to luck. That's why we need assurances that there are processes in place for crowd safety, not just from a policing perspective, but emergency response more widely.
Charlton without a shadow of doubt did not sufficiently communicate the situation either deliberately or due to incompetence.
The clear evidence is the thousands of people heading towards the station with no one directing them correctly.
The best solution next season is to limit Millwall fans to the minimum that we are allowed to and keep them in with enough stewards and police to deal with them properly.
The additional costs of this should be covered by the sale of home tickets that will presumably be lost next season, with a much lower home fan attendance, due to home fans not putting up with the dangerous inconvenience.
20,000 home fans V Millwall was the highest for 50 odd years and will not be repeated for a long time unless Charlton fans are given assurances that Millwall fans will be held back.
The policing and stewarding should obviously cover the Jimmy Seed gate at the Curbs Stand/Bartram Gate/Lansdowne Lane exit.
A large part of the blame on the day must lie with the police. They made the "access" decision very late and given that they had made the same decision 5 years earlier, they must have known they were going to make it. Then their sub standard implementation - Ransom Walk, Traffic Control, the invisible 250 plus police.
Where do the Club come into it? I honestly believe that the owners of club does have the best interests of the fans and are not, geared solely by filthy lucre, as some would have us believe.
Mistakes have been made and one of the biggest errors has been communication. If pre and post communication had been clearer and more accepting then there would not be 1.3k posts on this thread.
- Prior to the match - details of the re routing, giving multiple levels of exposure - the big(ish) Screen, social media, website, tannoy and the club should be cognisant with the fact that the sound system appears to be as out dated as the floodlights
- During the match flashing up on the screen -yes it would have been annoying, but the message would have got through.
- Post match is again communications. Once it had all gone "tits up" the club should have anticipated the outrage and issued a statement, prempting CAST. They may not have been in a position to give a full evaluation of the situation but they could have said they were investigating and give a time line, whilst addressing issues that they could address. Specifically they could have said that:-
- The process was set by the Met and if they had input into this.
- Acknowledge the break through of Millwall fans and a commitment to have this gate effectively manned for future games. They should also praise the two stewards, for whom holding back "the hordes" was beyond their pay grades. I do not understand why at the very least a potential flash point such as this not at least have the guys that wear (I think) wear the blue vests and are more of an aggressive force able to deal with trouble.
-The future
The Club cannot ignore the police so, if Millwall are not relegated and we are not promoted, then at the very least arrangements should be clearly communicated. But the club must make a clear commitment to engage with the Met to restore the stadium vacation process adopted for all other games.
Finally, people have asked why the club have not learnt from 2019. Well we have had multiple owners, staff turnaround, people with experience have left or are working part time and I doubt anyone developing operating procedures.
Hopefully a more stable club, with owners that I believe do care, lessons will be learnt and implemented and pressure will be put on the Met and I suspect Greenwich Council to implement a more reasonable process to manage fans, but don't count on it.
Do you disagree with the rest of my comment, which is the part that I'd hope is the important bit?