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If you’re good enough you’re old enough
Bods64
Posts: 473
I’ve often wondered about the merits or disadvantages of playing young players in first team football. Perhaps I should qualify this by referring to the under 18’s age group.
Whilst it is fair to say that young players lack the strength of their older counterparts managers often use the excuse of “trying to protect them or they’re not yet ready”
I fully subscribe to Sir Matt Busby’s famous comments the topic of this discussion. Surely if you’re talented enough to make an appearance for the first team then you’re good enough? Perhaps introducing U18 players to an early environment in which they hope to flourish will pay dividends for their future careers.
I watched Arsenal play a 15 year old Max Dowman at the weekend. Ok he wasn’t introduced from the outset but was deemed good enough to make an appearance. He imo didn’t seem to be overawed and looked to be a very good prospect.
Of course I was excited to see Ibrahim Fullah make a few appearances for the 1st team. However I don’t always believe this was the case in the past. Perhaps attitudes are changing!
So I put it to you Nature, Nuture, Risk or Reward!
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Feels relevant to this, and some will have missed as I put it in the u18s thread. Chetam Ezenwata an u16 CB has recently trained with the first team squad. He’s regularly played for the u18s since preseason and been involved in some u21s games too.It’s a good example of the club not holding a player back if they show they’re good enough.
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Obviously a very extreme example but a rid of playing someone like Ezenwata in a first team game is, regardless of how rated he already is, that he will become more on the radar of other teams. Before he’s signed pro terms they can poach him for a flat compensation fee regardless. Obviously that changes when they’ve signed terms and I think NJ’s willingness to give Fullah, Mbick and Mwamba minutes as well as talking them up shows that youth are given a fair crack in this set up2
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Agree it is a risk, but so is not giving them opportunities, it’s one of our main selling points.fenaddick said:Obviously a very extreme example but a rid of playing someone like Ezenwata in a first team game is, regardless of how rated he already is, that he will become more on the radar of other teams. Before he’s signed pro terms they can poach him for a flat compensation fee regardless. Obviously that changes when they’ve signed terms and I think NJ’s willingness to give Fullah, Mbick and Mwamba minutes as well as talking them up shows that youth are given a fair crack in this set upFrom a player’s point of view, if they’re only playing and training within their age group, or maybe the next one up, why not take the offers from a top PL academy?
I saw Ezenwata as a sub at Hastings in preseason and before I worked out who he was, and without him having a lot to do, there was something about him that gave the impression he was a good player. If I can pick that up, there’s no doubt professional scouts will quickly work out which academy players are the stand outs, and be on top of who the internationals are, who’s playing in a higher age group etc. I don’t think we can hide it.3 -
Does the young lad mentioned above have the nickname Elvis?0
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Modern 15 and 16 year academy players, especially those from the top PL academies, are way more prepared, both physically and mentally, than the wonderkids, even 10 years ago. That's how the like of Dowman and Ngumoha can slot in at the highest level so easily, they've been super coached and mentored from a young age.2
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I always refer back to Lee Bowyer playing at age 16 when fans on here say to give TC some slack as he's still young....... he's 22 in a couple of weeks !
And Gomez was playing League football when he was 17.
So yes......if you are good enough you are old enough.3 -
Alan Hansen "you'll never win anything with kids"0
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We've just lost his Brother to Chelsea as well havent we?
So wont be surprised if this lad is on radars already.
With regard to Max Dowman, the BBC did a good article after the Leeds game talking about how protected he is... and given he's a 15-year old, the steps that have to be taken when with the First Team.
Max Dowman: Arsenal's steps to protect winger - BBC Sport0 -
Was just thinking of Charlton examples. Bowyer and Rufus spring to mind as players who came in at 17yrs old and didn't look out of place. Bowyer was running games and bossing older players around! Im not sure you'd get someone like now. He was a bit of a one off.golfaddick said:I always refer back to Lee Bowyer playing at age 16 when fans on here say to give TC some slack as he's still young....... he's 22 in a couple of weeks !
And Gomez was playing League football when he was 17.
So yes......if you are good enough you are old enough.
Edit. Excelled, rather than not looking out of place!1 -
Shelvey also made his debut very young, and in the Championship.YTS1978 said:
Was just thinking of Charlton examples. Bowyer and Rufus spring to mind as players who came in at 17yrs old and didn't look out of place. Bowyer was running games and bossing older players around! Im not sure you'd get someone like now. He was a bit of a one off.golfaddick said:I always refer back to Lee Bowyer playing at age 16 when fans on here say to give TC some slack as he's still young....... he's 22 in a couple of weeks !
And Gomez was playing League football when he was 17.
So yes......if you are good enough you are old enough.
Edit. Excelled, rather than not looking out of place!5 - Sponsored links:
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I'd forgotten about him! Yes, he made an immediate impact. Parker and Konchesky also made their debuts around 16yrs old, but although they had excellent careers i don't think it was immediately apparent just how good they were.killerandflash said:
Shelvey also made his debut very young, and in the Championship.YTS1978 said:
Was just thinking of Charlton examples. Bowyer and Rufus spring to mind as players who came in at 17yrs old and didn't look out of place. Bowyer was running games and bossing older players around! Im not sure you'd get someone like now. He was a bit of a one off.golfaddick said:I always refer back to Lee Bowyer playing at age 16 when fans on here say to give TC some slack as he's still young....... he's 22 in a couple of weeks !
And Gomez was playing League football when he was 17.
So yes......if you are good enough you are old enough.
Edit. Excelled, rather than not looking out of place!1 -
What I don’t understand is contract law. When I was 16 I was old enough to sign a part time contract at McDonald's. Now my nephews and nieces have to wait until they are 18. How can under 18s have a contract and ’work’ in football?0
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jimmymelrose said:What I don’t understand is contract law. When I was 16 I was old enough to sign a part time contract at McDonald's. Now my nephews and nieces have to wait until they are 18. How can under 18s have a contract and ’work’ in football?
Between their school leaving age and 18, a young person in England must do one of the following:
- full-time education or training, such as school or college
- work-based learning, such as an apprenticeship
- working or volunteering (for 20 hours or more a week) while in part-time education or training
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Yes, but others in this 1st category do not get paid, do they? Can under 18s get paid in other professions?
I think apprentices get a small income but does that count for U18s?0 -
Looking at you link, the only way to earn money is through an apprenticeship. It states however:
Apprenticeships are a way to get experience at work while training and studying for qualifications.
Surely this should mean qualifications linked to the profession they are working in, but there are no qualifications for footballers, although there are for coaches.
Therefore, I still see no argument how, in England at least, under 18s can play in the first team and get paid.0 -
I misread the title as If you're old enough, you're good enough. For a moment, I was quite elated.0
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I hate that phrase. I hate all the stupid cliches like that in football. The fact is footballers are people, and every person is different. Pointing to certain players as being ready when they're younger and using that as a reason all players should be is just stupid. Some mature later than others physically and mentally, some peak early and it turns out what looked like potential was just them giving all they'd ever have. Some players get thrown in because there's no-one else and even if they might have been good enough their confidence is hit playing in a bad team and they wither - Karlan Grant was like that for us before his loan helped him out. Some players need protecting because they're not ready. Some don't. Trying to treat them all the same way would result in potentially good players suffering and not reaching the level they could. Fortunately football coaches generally have a bit more sense than impatient fans5
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Don't forget Jonjo Shelvey. Charlton's youngest ever goal scorer...YTS1978 said:
Was just thinking of Charlton examples. Bowyer and Rufus spring to mind as players who came in at 17yrs old and didn't look out of place. Bowyer was running games and bossing older players around! Im not sure you'd get someone like now. He was a bit of a one off.golfaddick said:I always refer back to Lee Bowyer playing at age 16 when fans on here say to give TC some slack as he's still young....... he's 22 in a couple of weeks !
And Gomez was playing League football when he was 17.
So yes......if you are good enough you are old enough.
Edit. Excelled, rather than not looking out of place!0 -
jimmymelrose said:Yes, but others in this 1st category do not get paid, do they? Can under 18s get paid in other professions?
I think apprentices get a small income but does that count for U18s?16-18 is a scholarship where players get an allowance, not a wage. Most do not sign a pro-contract until the end of their scholarship at 18.Dowman, as an example, is not on a Professional contract as the earliest a pro-contract can be signed is 17 (with the parents' express agreement) but that is rare. If they do sign at 17 (FA rules allow this) then they fall into the third category as they are still considered to be in part-time education or training.In answer to your highlighted question, the answer is yes as long as they are still in part-time education or training.1 -
I’m more in the category that I’m old enough to think I was good enough…1
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The Busby Babes showed that if you are good enough you are old enough. However following the devastating air crash several young players had to be prematurely put in their team and it had a detrimental affect on players like Dawson etc.0
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Going back a long while and is almost certainly different now, but when I was with Charlton youth team (1966-68), I was always given expenses on youth match days to get to and from The Valley. No other moneyjimmymelrose said:Yes, but others in this 1st category do not get paid, do they? Can under 18s get paid in other professions?
I think apprentices get a small income but does that count for U18s?0 -
No chance he's not already on the radar of all the teams above us in the food chain1
