Energy Bills

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm sat here waiting for Led By Donkeys to put up a poster about the price cap going up by £300 instead of down, as promised by Labour.

Yeah love this. "It's all going into their mates pockets" etc when it's a Tory government (the one that brought in subsidies for taxpayers). Some people will be surprised to hear that the Labour government are still lining the Tories pockets...

Led by Donkeys (in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect) are just a bunch of bellends. 

It's almost as if a government of any colour is very weak to resist market forces. It's just one party get off without the scrutiny of the other. 

Do you think Led by Donkeys should wait until the government has either met, or failed to meet its prediction of reducing bills by £300 by 2029? Or would it be better if they decided now that it's not been met? 

I only ask because they've garnered a reputation of speaking truth to power which would be diminished if they were to criticise a goal set for 2029, several years before the deadline. 

2030 actually. And no, I certainly don't expect them to do anything that criticizes Labour despite them declaring they are "fair game." 

"A reputation of speaking truth for power" is stretching it a bit too in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have :-)

Do you not think they do that? I don't think anyone could argue that they haven't challenged authority by revealing uncomfortable truths and held politicians accountable by displaying past statements and promises by political leaders alongside evidence of their failures; and running campaigns on Brexit, COVID-19 mismanagement, party scandals and climate change inaction. That's surely the very definition of speaking truth to power.  

They have been going for 72 months: 67 months and four PMs from the Conservative party, eight months with Starmer in charge.  It's not surprising they've campaigned more against the right than the left, given those figures.  They are allowed to pick and choose sides though.  

Incidentally, what did you mean by "in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect"? 

They don’t campaign against the left because they’re Labour staffers & lefties. Please don’t pretend otherwise. 

cantersaddick said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm sat here waiting for Led By Donkeys to put up a poster about the price cap going up by £300 instead of down, as promised by Labour.

Yeah love this. "It's all going into their mates pockets" etc when it's a Tory government (the one that brought in subsidies for taxpayers). Some people will be surprised to hear that the Labour government are still lining the Tories pockets...

Led by Donkeys (in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect) are just a bunch of bellends. 

It's almost as if a government of any colour is very weak to resist market forces. It's just one party get off without the scrutiny of the other. 

Do you think Led by Donkeys should wait until the government has either met, or failed to meet its prediction of reducing bills by £300 by 2029? Or would it be better if they decided now that it's not been met? 

I only ask because they've garnered a reputation of speaking truth to power which would be diminished if they were to criticise a goal set for 2029, several years before the deadline. 

2030 actually. And no, I certainly don't expect them to do anything that criticizes Labour despite them declaring they are "fair game." 

"A reputation of speaking truth for power" is stretching it a bit too in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have :-)

Do you not think they do that? I don't think anyone could argue that they haven't challenged authority by revealing uncomfortable truths and held politicians accountable by displaying past statements and promises by political leaders alongside evidence of their failures; and running campaigns on Brexit, COVID-19 mismanagement, party scandals and climate change inaction. That's surely the very definition of speaking truth to power.  

They have been going for 72 months: 67 months and four PMs from the Conservative party, eight months with Starmer in charge.  It's not surprising they've campaigned more against the right than the left, given those figures.  They are allowed to pick and choose sides though.  

Incidentally, what did you mean by "in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect"? 

They don’t campaign against the left because they’re Labour staffers & lefties. Please don’t pretend otherwise. 

Bit of a contradiction there as this version of labour cant really be called left by any measure.

Leroy Ambrose said:

cantersaddick said:

cafcnick1992 said:

cantersaddick said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm sat here waiting for Led By Donkeys to put up a poster about the price cap going up by £300 instead of down, as promised by Labour.

Yeah love this. "It's all going into their mates pockets" etc when it's a Tory government (the one that brought in subsidies for taxpayers). Some people will be surprised to hear that the Labour government are still lining the Tories pockets...

Led by Donkeys (in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect) are just a bunch of bellends. 

It's almost as if a government of any colour is very weak to resist market forces. It's just one party get off without the scrutiny of the other. 

Do you think Led by Donkeys should wait until the government has either met, or failed to meet its prediction of reducing bills by £300 by 2029? Or would it be better if they decided now that it's not been met? 

I only ask because they've garnered a reputation of speaking truth to power which would be diminished if they were to criticise a goal set for 2029, several years before the deadline. 

2030 actually. And no, I certainly don't expect them to do anything that criticizes Labour despite them declaring they are "fair game." 

"A reputation of speaking truth for power" is stretching it a bit too in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have :-)

Do you not think they do that? I don't think anyone could argue that they haven't challenged authority by revealing uncomfortable truths and held politicians accountable by displaying past statements and promises by political leaders alongside evidence of their failures; and running campaigns on Brexit, COVID-19 mismanagement, party scandals and climate change inaction. That's surely the very definition of speaking truth to power.  

They have been going for 72 months: 67 months and four PMs from the Conservative party, eight months with Starmer in charge.  It's not surprising they've campaigned more against the right than the left, given those figures.  They are allowed to pick and choose sides though.  

Incidentally, what did you mean by "in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect"? 

They don’t campaign against the left because they’re Labour staffers & lefties. Please don’t pretend otherwise. 

Bit of a contradiction there as this version of labour cant really be called left by any measure.

Insane comment

Go on - lay out exactly what is left about them? 

I know its not on topic but allow me this one post. This just perfectly demonstrates how warped the political conversation in the UK has become. By any independent measure this labour government on both economic and social policy are still pushing hard capitalist, go for growth, support big business, low welfare, low regulation, cuts in spending, low govt intervention, low service provision, high levels of private sector involvement, anti immigration messages and agenda. Yes they want reform and to get public services working again and yes they have raised a small amount through some taxes to do this but if you take the slightest step back you can see that whilst being to the left of what we've had since Johnson took a lurch to the hard right we are still at best being run by a centrist govt. I'd argue that socially this govt is further right that David Cameron. 

Taking that step back for some perspective. You have the US system, the European system and then way off you have proper social democracies like Scandinavia and Japan. We have historically been in the window between the US and European systems, sometimes we are closer to one than the other. We have been since 92 moving ever closer to the US system, this government have moved us a bit nearer to the European system but when you see major economies in Europe having serious conversations about introducing wealth taxes you realise just how far off we are. They have big business controls that we can only dream of, anti short-termism measure in dividend payments, employees on the board to ensure long term prospects for companies etc. controls on shareholders power, much more government intervention in key industries and sectors (energy, water, transport etc.). And even those countries and economies can barely be called left wing.

We are such a long way from even the European model (which is simply a reigned back capitalism) and millions of miles from anything that can be described as socialism or even social democracy such as Scandinavia or Japan. Get your head out of the UK drain and see some big picture here. 

That Overton Window is a motherfucker, ain't it? 

cafcnick1992 said:

cantersaddick said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm sat here waiting for Led By Donkeys to put up a poster about the price cap going up by £300 instead of down, as promised by Labour.

Yeah love this. "It's all going into their mates pockets" etc when it's a Tory government (the one that brought in subsidies for taxpayers). Some people will be surprised to hear that the Labour government are still lining the Tories pockets...

Led by Donkeys (in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect) are just a bunch of bellends. 

It's almost as if a government of any colour is very weak to resist market forces. It's just one party get off without the scrutiny of the other. 

Do you think Led by Donkeys should wait until the government has either met, or failed to meet its prediction of reducing bills by £300 by 2029? Or would it be better if they decided now that it's not been met? 

I only ask because they've garnered a reputation of speaking truth to power which would be diminished if they were to criticise a goal set for 2029, several years before the deadline. 

2030 actually. And no, I certainly don't expect them to do anything that criticizes Labour despite them declaring they are "fair game." 

"A reputation of speaking truth for power" is stretching it a bit too in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have :-)

Do you not think they do that? I don't think anyone could argue that they haven't challenged authority by revealing uncomfortable truths and held politicians accountable by displaying past statements and promises by political leaders alongside evidence of their failures; and running campaigns on Brexit, COVID-19 mismanagement, party scandals and climate change inaction. That's surely the very definition of speaking truth to power.  

They have been going for 72 months: 67 months and four PMs from the Conservative party, eight months with Starmer in charge.  It's not surprising they've campaigned more against the right than the left, given those figures.  They are allowed to pick and choose sides though.  

Incidentally, what did you mean by "in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect"? 

They don’t campaign against the left because they’re Labour staffers & lefties. Please don’t pretend otherwise. 

Bit of a contradiction there as this version of labour cant really be called left by any measure.

Insane comment

Go on - lay out exactly what is left about them? 

I know its not on topic but allow me this one post. This just perfectly demonstrates how warped the political conversation in the UK has become. By any independent measure this labour government on both economic and social policy are still pushing hard capitalist, go for growth, support big business, low welfare, low regulation, cuts in spending, low govt intervention, low service provision, high levels of private sector involvement, anti immigration messages and agenda. Yes they want reform and to get public services working again and yes they have raised a small amount through some taxes to do this but if you take the slightest step back you can see that whilst being to the left of what we've had since Johnson took a lurch to the hard right we are still at best being run by a centrist govt. I'd argue that socially this govt is further right that David Cameron. 

Taking that step back for some perspective. You have the US system, the European system and then way off you have proper social democracies like Scandinavia and Japan. We have historically been in the window between the US and European systems, sometimes we are closer to one than the other. We have been since 92 moving ever closer to the US system, this government have moved us a bit nearer to the European system but when you see major economies in Europe having serious conversations about introducing wealth taxes you realise just how far off we are. They have big business controls that we can only dream of, anti short-termism measure in dividend payments, employees on the board to ensure long term prospects for companies etc. controls on shareholders power, much more government intervention in key industries and sectors (energy, water, transport etc.). And even those countries and economies can barely be called left wing.

We are such a long way from even the European model (which is simply a reigned back capitalism) and millions of miles from anything that can be described as socialism or even social democracy such as Scandinavia or Japan. Get your head out of the UK drain and see some big picture here. 

cantersaddick said:

cafcnick1992 said:

cantersaddick said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm sat here waiting for Led By Donkeys to put up a poster about the price cap going up by £300 instead of down, as promised by Labour.

Yeah love this. "It's all going into their mates pockets" etc when it's a Tory government (the one that brought in subsidies for taxpayers). Some people will be surprised to hear that the Labour government are still lining the Tories pockets...

Led by Donkeys (in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect) are just a bunch of bellends. 

It's almost as if a government of any colour is very weak to resist market forces. It's just one party get off without the scrutiny of the other. 

Do you think Led by Donkeys should wait until the government has either met, or failed to meet its prediction of reducing bills by £300 by 2029? Or would it be better if they decided now that it's not been met? 

I only ask because they've garnered a reputation of speaking truth to power which would be diminished if they were to criticise a goal set for 2029, several years before the deadline. 

2030 actually. And no, I certainly don't expect them to do anything that criticizes Labour despite them declaring they are "fair game." 

"A reputation of speaking truth for power" is stretching it a bit too in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have :-)

Do you not think they do that? I don't think anyone could argue that they haven't challenged authority by revealing uncomfortable truths and held politicians accountable by displaying past statements and promises by political leaders alongside evidence of their failures; and running campaigns on Brexit, COVID-19 mismanagement, party scandals and climate change inaction. That's surely the very definition of speaking truth to power.  

They have been going for 72 months: 67 months and four PMs from the Conservative party, eight months with Starmer in charge.  It's not surprising they've campaigned more against the right than the left, given those figures.  They are allowed to pick and choose sides though.  

Incidentally, what did you mean by "in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect"? 

They don’t campaign against the left because they’re Labour staffers & lefties. Please don’t pretend otherwise. 

Bit of a contradiction there as this version of labour cant really be called left by any measure.

Insane comment

Go on - lay out exactly what is left about them? 

I know its not on topic but allow me this one post. This just perfectly demonstrates how warped the political conversation in the UK has become. By any independent measure this labour government on both economic and social policy are still pushing hard capitalist, go for growth, support big business, low welfare, low regulation, cuts in spending, low govt intervention, low service provision, high levels of private sector involvement, anti immigration messages and agenda. Yes they want reform and to get public services working again and yes they have raised a small amount through some taxes to do this but if you take the slightest step back you can see that whilst being to the left of what we've had since Johnson took a lurch to the hard right we are still at best being run by a centrist govt. I'd argue that socially this govt is further right that David Cameron. 

Taking that step back for some perspective. You have the US system, the European system and then way off you have proper social democracies like Scandinavia and Japan. We have historically been in the window between the US and European systems, sometimes we are closer to one than the other. We have been since 92 moving ever closer to the US system, this government have moved us a bit nearer to the European system but when you see major economies in Europe having serious conversations about introducing wealth taxes you realise just how far off we are. They have big business controls that we can only dream of, anti short-termism measure in dividend payments, employees on the board to ensure long term prospects for companies etc. controls on shareholders power, much more government intervention in key industries and sectors (energy, water, transport etc.). And even those countries and economies can barely be called left wing.

We are such a long way from even the European model (which is simply a reigned back capitalism) and millions of miles from anything that can be described as socialism or even social democracy such as Scandinavia or Japan. Get your head out of the UK drain and see some big picture here. 

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Japan sontcantersaddick said:

cafcnick1992 said:

cantersaddick said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm sat here waiting for Led By Donkeys to put up a poster about the price cap going up by £300 instead of down, as promised by Labour.

Yeah love this. "It's all going into their mates pockets" etc when it's a Tory government (the one that brought in subsidies for taxpayers). Some people will be surprised to hear that the Labour government are still lining the Tories pockets...

Led by Donkeys (in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect) are just a bunch of bellends. 

It's almost as if a government of any colour is very weak to resist market forces. It's just one party get off without the scrutiny of the other. 

Do you think Led by Donkeys should wait until the government has either met, or failed to meet its prediction of reducing bills by £300 by 2029? Or would it be better if they decided now that it's not been met? 

I only ask because they've garnered a reputation of speaking truth to power which would be diminished if they were to criticise a goal set for 2029, several years before the deadline. 

2030 actually. And no, I certainly don't expect them to do anything that criticizes Labour despite them declaring they are "fair game." 

"A reputation of speaking truth for power" is stretching it a bit too in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have :-)

Do you not think they do that? I don't think anyone could argue that they haven't challenged authority by revealing uncomfortable truths and held politicians accountable by displaying past statements and promises by political leaders alongside evidence of their failures; and running campaigns on Brexit, COVID-19 mismanagement, party scandals and climate change inaction. That's surely the very definition of speaking truth to power.  

They have been going for 72 months: 67 months and four PMs from the Conservative party, eight months with Starmer in charge.  It's not surprising they've campaigned more against the right than the left, given those figures.  They are allowed to pick and choose sides though.  

Incidentally, what did you mean by "in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect"? 

They don’t campaign against the left because they’re Labour staffers & lefties. Please don’t pretend otherwise. 

Bit of a contradiction there as this version of labour cant really be called left by any measure.

Insane comment

Go on - lay out exactly what is left about them? 

I know its not on topic but allow me this one post. This just perfectly demonstrates how warped the political conversation in the UK has become. By any independent measure this labour government on both economic and social policy are still pushing hard capitalist, go for growth, support big business, low welfare, low regulation, cuts in spending, low govt intervention, low service provision, high levels of private sector involvement, anti immigration messages and agenda. Yes they want reform and to get public services working again and yes they have raised a small amount through some taxes to do this but if you take the slightest step back you can see that whilst being to the left of what we've had since Johnson took a lurch to the hard right we are still at best being run by a centrist govt. I'd argue that socially this govt is further right that David Cameron. 

Taking that step back for some perspective. You have the US system, the European system and then way off you have proper social democracies like Scandinavia and Japan. We have historically been in the window between the US and European systems, sometimes we are closer to one than the other. We have been since 92 moving ever closer to the US system, this government have moved us a bit nearer to the European system but when you see major economies in Europe having serious conversations about introducing wealth taxes you realise just how far off we are. They have big business controls that we can only dream of, anti short-termism measure in dividend payments, employees on the board to ensure long term prospects for companies etc. controls on shareholders power, much more government intervention in key industries and sectors (energy, water, transport etc.). And even those countries and economies can barely be called left wing.

We are such a long way from even the European model (which is simply a reigned back capitalism) and millions of miles from anything that can be described as socialism or even social democracy such as Scandinavia or Japan. Get your head out of the UK drain and see some big picture here. 

cantersaddick said:

cafcnick1992 said:

cantersaddick said:

stop_shouting said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

Chizz said:

Huskaris said:

cafcnick1992 said:

I'm sat here waiting for Led By Donkeys to put up a poster about the price cap going up by £300 instead of down, as promised by Labour.

Yeah love this. "It's all going into their mates pockets" etc when it's a Tory government (the one that brought in subsidies for taxpayers). Some people will be surprised to hear that the Labour government are still lining the Tories pockets...

Led by Donkeys (in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect) are just a bunch of bellends. 

It's almost as if a government of any colour is very weak to resist market forces. It's just one party get off without the scrutiny of the other. 

Do you think Led by Donkeys should wait until the government has either met, or failed to meet its prediction of reducing bills by £300 by 2029? Or would it be better if they decided now that it's not been met? 

I only ask because they've garnered a reputation of speaking truth to power which would be diminished if they were to criticise a goal set for 2029, several years before the deadline. 

2030 actually. And no, I certainly don't expect them to do anything that criticizes Labour despite them declaring they are "fair game." 

"A reputation of speaking truth for power" is stretching it a bit too in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have :-)

Do you not think they do that? I don't think anyone could argue that they haven't challenged authority by revealing uncomfortable truths and held politicians accountable by displaying past statements and promises by political leaders alongside evidence of their failures; and running campaigns on Brexit, COVID-19 mismanagement, party scandals and climate change inaction. That's surely the very definition of speaking truth to power.  

They have been going for 72 months: 67 months and four PMs from the Conservative party, eight months with Starmer in charge.  It's not surprising they've campaigned more against the right than the left, given those figures.  They are allowed to pick and choose sides though.  

Incidentally, what did you mean by "in itself a phrase which is factually and demonstrably incorrect"? 

They don’t campaign against the left because they’re Labour staffers & lefties. Please don’t pretend otherwise. 

Bit of a contradiction there as this version of labour cant really be called left by any measure.

Insane comment

Go on - lay out exactly what is left about them? 

I know its not on topic but allow me this one post. This just perfectly demonstrates how warped the political conversation in the UK has become. By any independent measure this labour government on both economic and social policy are still pushing hard capitalist, go for growth, support big business, low welfare, low regulation, cuts in spending, low govt intervention, low service provision, high levels of private sector involvement, anti immigration messages and agenda. Yes they want reform and to get public services working again and yes they have raised a small amount through some taxes to do this but if you take the slightest step back you can see that whilst being to the left of what we've had since Johnson took a lurch to the hard right we are still at best being run by a centrist govt. I'd argue that socially this govt is further right that David Cameron. 

Taking that step back for some perspective. You have the US system, the European system and then way off you have proper social democracies like Scandinavia and Japan. We have historically been in the window between the US and European systems, sometimes we are closer to one than the other. We have been since 92 moving ever closer to the US system, this government have moved us a bit nearer to the European system but when you see major economies in Europe having serious conversations about introducing wealth taxes you realise just how far off we are. They have big business controls that we can only dream of, anti short-termism measure in dividend payments, employees on the board to ensure long term prospects for companies etc. controls on shareholders power, much more government intervention in key industries and sectors (energy, water, transport etc.). And even those countries and economies can barely be called left wing.

We are such a long way from even the European model (which is simply a reigned back capitalism) and millions of miles from anything that can be described as socialism or even social democracy such as Scandinavia or Japan. Get your head out of the UK drain and see some big picture here. 

Is this the same Japan that doesn’t offer universal free health care, or free education beyond junior high school? The LDP is absolutely centre right and that’s before you consider their non existent immigration policy!