Charlie Kirk (p68 - released by Barrow)

StrikerFirmani said:

DubaiCAFC said:

StrikerFirmani said:

DubaiCAFC said:

StrikerFirmani said:

DubaiCAFC said:

Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in more goals than any other player this season 
He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch

Statistic as often ignore the rest of the picture.  He generally plays a position where the other part of the game is non existent and out ways the good part of his game.

I wonder what his stats are for hiding in a game.  

But what is his position in the team? It is to create and score goals right? 

Good question because the last 4 managers couldn't find the answer to that one.

Started more times than not for Garner.!

So the manager who left us in 18th position is the endorsement for a player who is on the wing most of the time yet not a winger.  I grant you Kirk does have some good attributes but I would wager his lack of involvement during a game is to the detriment of the team. 

Perhaps if we had a strong all round balanced team he might have been the cherry on top. Unfortunately CAFC don't have. Perhaps that's why your stats comparing him to the other non creative crap makes him come out on top on 1 aspect of the stats. 

  

You asked the questions about the last 4 managers.. And Garner started him more often and not... Garner wasn't the issue, him and TS fell out, knew what was coming! 

The game has changed, you don't have up and down wingers that hog the touch line.!

ForeverAddickted said:

The problem with Kirk is he has no pace - He's probably the best winger we have at putting the ball into the box, but he's not an explosive player, so wont, and cant take on the Full-Back and beat him in a race, so he'll never be the type of player to get you out of your seat as you watch him make something happen.

What worked for him at Crewe, was the fact that Pickering had the pace from Full-Back, he'd overlap, take the Full-Back with him and leave Kirk the space to whip the ball into the box. Either that or Pickering would do it himself.

Basically their version of Wiggins and Jackson

Now since we've had Kirk, who have we had thats replicated the Pickering role? - Sessegnon has come closest, but as everyone berates, he has to cut back on to his right foot when he does go forward (Although as we saw on Boxing Day, it seems Holden preferred him hanging back, with Clare as the attacking Wing-Back) which slows down our attack.

Once again the larger issue is the fact that the Recruitment team looked at Charlie as a signing and thought... Yup he has the qualities to make us a better team - Unfortunately it feels as though they didnt look at the bigger picture, and work out why it worked so well for him at Crewe.

This summary is pretty much on the money why he did well at Crewe.

Yes he does have some skill but I would dispute he is a winger. As stated he doesn't have pace but nor does he have the ability to go round anyone with trickery either.  You would think he might be able to fill the whole behind 2 strikers to create but you need movement to find space. He always seems to static.    

I wonder if there are many other threads here with such poor titles.

ForeverAddickted said:

LargeAddick said:

four years too, that's more like it.

Dread the reaction when he doesnt perform to expectations

I'll just leave this here.  Prescient.

DubaiCAFC said:

StrikerFirmani said:

DubaiCAFC said:

StrikerFirmani said:

DubaiCAFC said:

StrikerFirmani said:

DubaiCAFC said:

Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in more goals than any other player this season 
He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch

Statistic as often ignore the rest of the picture.  He generally plays a position where the other part of the game is non existent and out ways the good part of his game.

I wonder what his stats are for hiding in a game.  

But what is his position in the team? It is to create and score goals right? 

Good question because the last 4 managers couldn't find the answer to that one.

Started more times than not for Garner.!

So the manager who left us in 18th position is the endorsement for a player who is on the wing most of the time yet not a winger.  I grant you Kirk does have some good attributes but I would wager his lack of involvement during a game is to the detriment of the team. 

Perhaps if we had a strong all round balanced team he might have been the cherry on top. Unfortunately CAFC don't have. Perhaps that's why your stats comparing him to the other non creative crap makes him come out on top on 1 aspect of the stats. 

  

You asked the questions about the last 4 managers.. And Garner started him more often and not... Garner wasn't the issue, him and TS fell out, knew what was coming! 

The game has changed, you don't have up and down wingers that hog the touch line.!

The point was, of the 4 managers they all tried Kirk in other positions when it wasn't working out for him in a wide position with out much luck.  Even Garner who admittedly said 'he liked Kirk as a player'  didn't have him successfully performing on a consistent basis.

Yes I am aware football has changed but if you are playing 3 up as England do for instance the players that can play as out & out wingers (Saka & Sterling) still provide pace or trickery as attributes to get beyond the central striker.  So to me Kirk doesn't have that so no he is not a winger deployed as a one of front 3 players.

My comments this morning are critical about Kirk but the reality is I have no axe per say to grind against him other than he hasn't delivered and I personally don't think he is right for us as the type of player he is.

To be fair we have less skillful players that are supposed to be creative players but you have to look at piecing the jigsaw together on a budget. Therefore I think we need players that are less restrictive than Kirk. 

I accept there are different opinions on certain players but how long are you going to keep waiting for a solution to finding the position for Kirk.  If it were my call, I would make a decision now if a club were willing to take him even if it were on loan.     


      

ForeverAddickted said:

DubaiCAFC said:

StrikerFirmani said:

DubaiCAFC said:

Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in more goals than any other player this season 
He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch

Statistic as often ignore the rest of the picture.  He generally plays a position where the other part of the game is non existent and out ways the good part of his game.

I wonder what his stats are for hiding in a game.  

But what is his position in the team? It is to create and score goals right? 

Your comment reminds me of something Jack Grealish said prior to the season starting.

He said a lot of people thought he didnt justify his price tag last season, based on the lack of stats

But in his eyes he was getting involved because there were countless times where he was setting up the bloke who got the assist for the goal. Or there would have been chances he did create but it doesnt go down as anything, because the bloke on the other end of the cross wasn't putting the effort away.

Now lets look at that, who is the bloke at the end of the cross... Oh yes... the equally loved Jayden Stockley...

That's a good point. At the start of the season, he put 4-5 superb crosses right on Jayden's head that were clear-cut chances and Jayden put them straight at the keeper. 

Maybe Kirk is not the kind of player we want when we're fighting relegation or in a bad run of form, but he can create more than anyone else in this team (and at times in this league), the stats don't lie there. Unfortunately he's also the least 'Charlton-like' player we've got, in that he doesn't work particularly hard and hates a tackle. (I don't think I've ever seen CBT make a tackle either, but he gets away with it for being more 'exciting.')

Players with that lack of work ethic will stand out and rightly get criticism when we're in need of backs-to-walls, diehard attitudes to pull us out of trouble.

It's what winds me up about these L1 players. They don't push themselves. If Charlie suddenly found his aggressive streak, played every game as if it was his last, pressed like a maniac and tackled hard, he'd be a Championship player without a doubt. But he seems happy where he is, plodding along. 

Probably not going to work out for him here, especially with the 352. Another symptom of our smorgasboard approach to recruitment. But even with this all being said, I still don't think he's a dud, not with the chances he creates. 

DubaiCAFC said:

Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in goals this season, he is level with JRS, but less minutes nearly 300 minutes less
He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch

Interesting looking at that. He has more goals than our centre forward and more assists than anyone, so is he really as bad as people make out?

I completely get all the opinions that he isn't cut out to be a winger, he doesn't look interested, and he's certainly not one you'd want in the trenches but if a manager was prepared to accept he will offer nothing defensively and gave him a free role maybe as a number 10, then he'd probably be quite good.

I don't imagine Holden will be doing that though, so i can see him leaving.

Chunes said:

Leuth said:

Football isn't played on a chart.

This is weak. You can do better.

Okay. Football can be played on a chart when the sample size is large. This is not. This is 3 goals and 4 assists. Kirk's generally done very, very poorly because he's not been able to impact the game, especially from the wing, where full-backs dominate him. The evidence is before our eyes. 

ForeverAddickted said:

DubaiCAFC said:

I get Kirk isn't perfect... But seems crazy you want to get rid of our biggest contributor to goals on loan or a free transfer, that is mad!! What other club will want to do that.. Clearly he is popular around the club and with team mates as well.. Would be a mistake to let him go 

The problem now is the fact that Holden has come in, and in our last couple of games, we've gone back to 3-5-2

That formation doesnt work for any of our wingers, Kirk may be able to adapt like Leuth says, with him in the No.10 role - But once again we're a mess, we've made rigid signings for a 4-4-2 | 4-3-3... and are already changing setup to something that three / four players are useless in.

Absolutely this. We attempted to build a 433 squad under Adkins, then Jacko came in and went 352. We then went back to the 433 for Garner and now back again to 352. I know you have to bring in players to suit the managers system because you don't plan to fail but like you say, it's a mess. The only hope is that we don't have long to go to January because if we're going 352 we desperately need a wing-back, centre-back and striker or two.

Leuth said:

Chunes said:

Leuth said:

Chunes said:

Leuth said:

Football isn't played on a chart.

This is weak. You can do better.

Okay. Football can be played on a chart when the sample size is large. This is not. This is 3 goals and 4 assists. Kirk's generally done very, very poorly because he's not been able to impact the game, especially from the wing, where full-backs dominate him. The evidence is before our eyes. 

The best objective evidence of whether a winger can impact a game is surely told through goals, assists and chances created...

I think Charlie's career stats (large sample size) will be up there with the best in the league.

His best work was as part of a front 2 in Garner's desperation formation change. Sadly I can't see Holden playing him ahead of even Kanu as he just won't press as he wants 

He certainly doesn't seem to have a place in this system. 

It's the Kerkar debate from a few years ago. 

Kerkar had the highest assist number at the club but was obvious to all other than the stat kids that he was a pretty average player. 

Kirk can put in a decent ball but lacks enough to actually be in a top level squad. 

Kirk drifts in and out of games but he still creates goals and chances, but is it enough to carry him for long periods of time.

Hoping having a blunt norvern type manager might give Tiberius a kick up the jacksie...  OR bin him.