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Match Thread: England vs Hungary 4th, Germany 7th, Italy 11th and Hungary 14th June 2022
Comments
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Personally, should have been 2nd final as we should have got past Croatia, but no point covering old ground.BR7_addick said:
Why though, he did really well, first final in 55 years, lost on penalties. History hasn’t happened since, we’ve not played in a tournament since. If we go out underwhelmed this year ill agree but until then his last major tournament was very good.SouthWest_Addicks said:
The time to sack him was straight after the Italy final. Got criticism for saying it then and think history has shown that it was not a mad as people thought back then. I dislike Southgate so much, I agree it is crazy to suggest sacking him 5 months before a tournament starts.BR7_addick said:
He’s not perfect or without criticism, but not the time to sack.SouthWest_Addicks said:
In three big games in tournaments we have taken the lead and just sat back and allowed the opposition to control the game. Croatia in WC, Holland in nations league and Italy in the final. Was at all of them and it was so obvious what was happening. Everyone of them game in a carbon copy of themselves. Southgate is painfully negative and it will show itself again at the World Cup.BR7_addick said:Southgate’s record in major tournaments and qualifiers:
P41 W30 D7 L4
I’m as embarrassed as anyone regarding last night, and twice as bored considering this break we’ve just witnessed. But Southgate is excellent in tournaments, I’ll repeat, Southgate is excellent in tournaments.And don’t gimme no “easy route to final” line, there’s no such thing, the best teams make it to the latter stages, whether they’re a nation with a tradition of winning or not is irrelevant. You can’t fluke your way to finals etc.
I’d give him Qatar, then I’d imagine the FA will get rid if it’s underwhelming.We are getting a back 5 at WC, whilst Grealish, Foden, Saka and Bellingham will be sat on the bench as we play two holding midfielders again.Have to hope we can keep those clean sheets and bore our way to success.Back in 2018, Southgate said the next evolution of the England team was to be more positive with the ball and to create more chances. 4 years on we haven’t improved in this area. I
Southgate isn’t going anywhere so zero point having this hypothetical scenario anyway. Let’s hope we enter the WC with some of our main players in form as we are going to rely on about 16 of the 23 players in our squad to win us the tournament.1 -
Just blaming managers is the reason why football is going down the shitter.
High level experienced footballers played against Hungary. It was in a 433 formation, which is set up they are used to playing.
They should be able to manage themselves to win the fixture.
Blame the players!
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Fuck - and I cannot stress this strongly enough - off.Major said:
Yes you can blame woke Southgate. How can you fire up your team for kick off, when you make them kneel first?Carter said:You cannot blame Southgate for this result or any of the performances, its ridiculous to schedule these games the way they have. No wonder clubs get pissy about players going on international duty.
We have a world cup coming up in the middle of the season because FIFA are run by corrupt maggots and toads and now the nations league which started as an honourable distraction from pointless friendlies scheduling games bang on top of each other with no time to rest, recover, train and prepare in between. In June! Fucking let them have a proper break, all this has done is let a ton of people throw mud at the most successful manager we have had in most of our lifetimes and propose we replace him rather than acknowledge the fixtures have been atrociously planned.
It's a submissive gesture. Never mind the fact he obviously knows F all about what's really behind BLM.9 -
A lot of talk about how successful Southgate has been for England but I'd contest that (and yes, people may not like it but he had easy runs in two tournaments - that's hard to argue against when looking at the quality of teams faced). Southgate's overall England record is worse than Capello's based on win % and with a far superior set of players to choose from.
The trouble with win % for England is that you have to expect it to be high for all managers given the inferior opposition we usually face. What really counts, the only thing that really matters is performance against the top tier nations. You will struggle to win a tournament without facing them, though England almost managed to do so on two occasions under Southgate. If we consider England a top tier international team, and based on quality of player they should be, then we should look at Southgate's performance against top tier nations. I have listed results below that I think fit into that category since Southgate took charge (asterisk next to competitive matches - not included Nations League as competitive except for the finals but admittedly this is open to interpretation - one or two nations i included as top tier are arguable) :
Spain - drew
Germany - lost
France - lost
Germany - drew
Brazil - drew
Netherlands - won
Italy - drew
Belgium - lost*
Colombia - drew (won on penalties)*
Croatia - lost*
Belgium - lost* (only 3rd place play off - may not be competitive)
Spain - lost
Croatia - drew
Spain - won
Croatia - won
Netherlands - lost*
Belgium - won
Belgium - lost
Croatia - won*
Germany - won*
Italy - drew (lost on penalties)*
Germany - drew
Italy - drew
These results don't fill me with confidence. The recent wins against a far weaker Croatia team than the one we faced in the World Cup and against a Germany team who were faltering badly under Low help boost the overall figures. Generally speaking though, there's little to suggest that when Southgate's England team step up to face top tier opposition, that there is much of a track record of success. The players are good enough to be more than flat track bullies but I'd argue we have underperformed against the top nations under Southgate.
If the FA aren't talking to Poch about a short term six month contract to get us through to the end of the World Cup, then they should. Just my opinion.1 -
Christ going for Poch would be like having Neil Harris as Charlton Manager
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Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.0
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We'll get one of Netherlands | Qatar | Ecuador | Senegal in the Last 16eaststandmike said:Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.1 -
in the Prem, the vast majority of top quality strikers and midfielders are foreigners .. Kane has to drop back and forage for himself as there is no service from midfield .. oh for a Modric or a Silva, instead we have Phillips at best a mid championship midfield sweeper. who reportedly Man Citeee are preparing to spend untold millions on .. is this all agent patter or has Pep lost his talent spotting glasses ?
Southgate's a lovely chap but a mediocre manager .. he still seems to have no idea about his best 14/15 players and what system to play .. his teams are too timid, too slow, too risk averse, too short of real talent .. the problem is who to replace him with .. I doubt any of the few English Prem managers would fancy the job and our foreign National managers never fared too well .. it will all need a good reshuffle after the World Cup (I hope)0 -
Lets hope we get Ecuador and they are ravaged by injuries and having a bad day, we might squeak through on pens.ForeverAddickted said:
We'll get one of Netherlands | Qatar | Ecuador | Senegal in the Last 16eaststandmike said:Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.
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I wonder if Garner's Charlton with mirror Hungary's football style?
Whatever their supposed weaknesses , Marco Rossi has certainly created a team greater than the sum of it's parts.
Boy did we labour to overcome them and break them down.
Poor Southgate has succeeded in creating a level of expectation and entitlement amongst the fans that is totally unreasonable imo.
Don't get me wrong we were dire last night and yet we do have a collection of talented players that should be capable of a taking us to the latter stages of major tournaments.
But having said that I believe we only have one world class player, Kane.
(Unlike for example the 3 we had in '66, Banks, Moore and Charlton).
The rest are very talented and some potentially great, but I don't think any would trouble a "best in the world" eleven at the moment.
Also fwiw, last night exposed a distinct lack of leaders. Now I get why Henderson is still around.
Fully expect Gareth to galvanise the squad for the important games later in the year.
But don't go making us favourites to win the world cup.3 - Sponsored links:
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Exactly, and we could have easily lost the shootout to Colombia in the last 16, the public might have turned on Southgate then if that happened.eaststandmike said:Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.1 -
This is a laughably unfair and in fact plain nonsensical description of England's last two major tournamentseaststandmike said:Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.10 -
No such thing as easy routes to finals. Teams that we consider footballing powerhouses were not good enough so they didn’t progress. Oh and we beat Germany, comfortably.eaststandmike said:Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.3 -
We don't crumble against decent opposition, just seems like as the match goes on we are consistently out-thought.
And that's against top opposition, not just 'decent'.0 -
Yes, and we could easily have won the shootout against Italy and been European Champions. If we're going to start saying 'if we'd lost the match we won we'd not have done as well in the tournament' then we've reached a level of pointlessness that even Charlton Life isn't ready for.CAFCTrev said:
Exactly, and we could have easily lost the shootout to Colombia in the last 16, the public might have turned on Southgate then if that happened.eaststandmike said:Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.
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England still quoted as 3rd favourite for the WC, at 13/2ish .. I have just had a wager on Germany at 10/1 .. Deutschland Deutschland Uber Alles1
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If I was England manager and had the best right back in the World available to me, he would be the first name on the team sheet. We should have been fine tuning with these Nations League games also, not experimenting.0
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That’s hilarious. I was watching the match with a mate and we literally joked that someone would use the defeat to blame taking the knee.Leroy Ambrose said:
Fuck - and I cannot stress this strongly enough - off.Major said:
Yes you can blame woke Southgate. How can you fire up your team for kick off, when you make them kneel first?Carter said:You cannot blame Southgate for this result or any of the performances, its ridiculous to schedule these games the way they have. No wonder clubs get pissy about players going on international duty.
We have a world cup coming up in the middle of the season because FIFA are run by corrupt maggots and toads and now the nations league which started as an honourable distraction from pointless friendlies scheduling games bang on top of each other with no time to rest, recover, train and prepare in between. In June! Fucking let them have a proper break, all this has done is let a ton of people throw mud at the most successful manager we have had in most of our lifetimes and propose we replace him rather than acknowledge the fixtures have been atrociously planned.
It's a submissive gesture. Never mind the fact he obviously knows F all about what's really behind BLM.Personally I think it’s an irrelevant, badly timed tournament, and I’m not bothered about losing. Good luck to Hungary, they were massively up for it and clearly enjoyed their day. Great finishing too.WC semifinal, Euros final. That’s our best run since ‘66, and it happened under Southgate, so I’m not throwing my toys out of the pram just yet. Overall the standard of football is on a different level from what it was ten years ago.1 -
Noticeable last Summer how all of a sudden a side like Germany were considered “not that good” only once England had beaten them….4
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I find its a pretty general thing though surrounding both England and Charlton.
Amount of times I've seen comments after a Charlton game, saying we solely won because the opposition were having a poor day, or were shit and that we'll be found out against someone decent.
But wait... Wasnt that US who made them look shit, or made them have a poor day?2 - Sponsored links:
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and he is ?MuttleyCAFC said:If I was England manager and had the best right back in the World available to me, he would be the first name on the team sheet. We should have been fine tuning with these Nations League games also, not experimenting.0 -
They did only win 1 game the whole tournament.cafctom said:Noticeable last Summer how all of a sudden a side like Germany were considered “not that good” only once England had beaten them….0 -
"Ah, but "they were not the Germany of old...", "it would have been different if we didn't have home advantage" - insert your own lets-never-give-England-any-credit cliche here..."Making_all_the_noise said:A lot of talk about how successful Southgate has been for England but I'd contest that (and yes, people may not like it but he had easy runs in two tournaments - that's hard to argue against when looking at the quality of teams faced). Southgate's overall England record is worse than Capello's based on win % and with a far superior set of players to choose from.
The trouble with win % for England is that you have to expect it to be high for all managers given the inferior opposition we usually face. What really counts, the only thing that really matters is performance against the top tier nations. You will struggle to win a tournament without facing them, though England almost managed to do so on two occasions under Southgate. If we consider England a top tier international team, and based on quality of player they should be, then we should look at Southgate's performance against top tier nations. I have listed results below that I think fit into that category since Southgate took charge (asterisk next to competitive matches - not included Nations League as competitive except for the finals but admittedly this is open to interpretation - one or two nations i included as top tier are arguable) :
Spain - drew
Germany - lost
France - lost
Germany - drew
Brazil - drew
Netherlands - won
Italy - drew
Belgium - lost*
Colombia - drew (won on penalties)*
Croatia - lost*
Belgium - lost* (only 3rd place play off - may not be competitive)
Spain - lost
Croatia - drew
Spain - won
Croatia - won
Netherlands - lost*
Belgium - won
Belgium - lost
Croatia - won*
Germany - won*
Italy - drew (lost on penalties)*
Germany - drew
Italy - drew
These results don't fill me with confidence. The recent wins against a far weaker Croatia team than the one we faced in the World Cup and against a Germany team who were faltering badly under Low help boost the overall figures. Generally speaking though, there's little to suggest that when Southgate's England team step up to face top tier opposition, that there is much of a track record of success. The players are good enough to be more than flat track bullies but I'd argue we have underperformed against the top nations under Southgate.
If the FA aren't talking to Poch about a short term six month contract to get us through to the end of the World Cup, then they should. Just my opinion.
BINGO!
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We just let him go!!Lincsaddick said:
and he is ?MuttleyCAFC said:If I was England manager and had the best right back in the World available to me, he would be the first name on the team sheet. We should have been fine tuning with these Nations League games also, not experimenting.1 -
Right. So other strong footballing nations like France, Germany, Portugal and Belgium all faltered early-ish in the tournament but we didn’t.SELR_addicks said:
They did only win 1 game the whole tournament.cafctom said:Noticeable last Summer how all of a sudden a side like Germany were considered “not that good” only once England had beaten them….We didn’t get shown up by anybody, regardless of whatever revisionist nonsense comes out about the Final itself - where everybody became a tactical expert in the aftermath.This is the first proper bump in the road in Southgate’s 5 years - and if it comes in the Nations League then so be it.He’s not beyond criticism, but he’s well in credit. And for somebody to come in and better him then they need to win the World Cup - simple as that.3 -
Because debating the could haves shouldn't happen on a football forum?Garrymanilow said:
Yes, and we could easily have won the shootout against Italy and been European Champions. If we're going to start saying 'if we'd lost the match we won we'd not have done as well in the tournament' then we've reached a level of pointlessness that even Charlton Life isn't ready for.CAFCTrev said:
Exactly, and we could have easily lost the shootout to Colombia in the last 16, the public might have turned on Southgate then if that happened.eaststandmike said:Why are people so shocked? We had easy routes to semi's and the final in the last two tournaments making us look better than we are. As soon as we come up against a decent side we crumble. Not looked at the next world cup but if the route to the final is tougher than the last two I expect an exit in the last 16.0 -
Because it was his fault those players missed penalties.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
On what grounds would you have sacked a guy after reaching our first major final for 55 years?SouthWest_Addicks said:
The time to sack him was straight after the Italy final. Got criticism for saying it then and think history has shown that it was not a mad as people thought back then. I dislike Southgate so much, I agree it is crazy to suggest sacking him 5 months before a tournament starts.BR7_addick said:
He’s not perfect or without criticism, but not the time to sack.SouthWest_Addicks said:
In three big games in tournaments we have taken the lead and just sat back and allowed the opposition to control the game. Croatia in WC, Holland in nations league and Italy in the final. Was at all of them and it was so obvious what was happening. Everyone of them game in a carbon copy of themselves. Southgate is painfully negative and it will show itself again at the World Cup.BR7_addick said:Southgate’s record in major tournaments and qualifiers:
P41 W30 D7 L4
I’m as embarrassed as anyone regarding last night, and twice as bored considering this break we’ve just witnessed. But Southgate is excellent in tournaments, I’ll repeat, Southgate is excellent in tournaments.And don’t gimme no “easy route to final” line, there’s no such thing, the best teams make it to the latter stages, whether they’re a nation with a tradition of winning or not is irrelevant. You can’t fluke your way to finals etc.
I’d give him Qatar, then I’d imagine the FA will get rid if it’s underwhelming.We are getting a back 5 at WC, whilst Grealish, Foden, Saka and Bellingham will be sat on the bench as we play two holding midfielders again.Have to hope we can keep those clean sheets and bore our way to success.3 -
Kind of the point, it was our tournament to win it. We had the form, we had the best squad in the competition.cafctom said:
Right. So other strong footballing nations like France, Germany, Portugal and Belgium all faltered early-ish in the tournament but we didn’t.SELR_addicks said:
They did only win 1 game the whole tournament.cafctom said:Noticeable last Summer how all of a sudden a side like Germany were considered “not that good” only once England had beaten them….We didn’t get shown up by anybody, regardless of whatever revisionist nonsense comes out about the Final itself - where everybody became a tactical expert in the aftermath.This is the first proper bump in the road in Southgate’s 5 years - and if it comes in the Nations League then so be it.He’s not beyond criticism, but he’s well in credit. And for somebody to come in and better him then they need to win the World Cup - simple as that.
We took the early lead in the final....then just faded away and let Italy dominate for 60 minutes + ET.3 -
I think the third option, that you are wrong, is the most likelyLincsaddick said:in the Prem, the vast majority of top quality strikers and midfielders are foreigners .. Kane has to drop back and forage for himself as there is no service from midfield .. oh for a Modric or a Silva, instead we have Phillips at best a mid championship midfield sweeper. who reportedly Man Citeee are preparing to spend untold millions on .. is this all agent patter or has Pep lost his talent spotting glasses ?
Southgate's a lovely chap but a mediocre manager .. he still seems to have no idea about his best 14/15 players and what system to play .. his teams are too timid, too slow, too risk averse, too short of real talent .. the problem is who to replace him with .. I doubt any of the few English Prem managers would fancy the job and our foreign National managers never fared too well .. it will all need a good reshuffle after the World Cup (I hope)
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It wasn't a World Cup game.Manic_mania said:
Errr yes.. you can do exactly that.Carter said:You cannot blame Southgate for this result or any of the performances, its ridiculous to schedule these games the way they have. No wonder clubs get pissy about players going on international duty.
We have a world cup coming up in the middle of the season because FIFA are run by corrupt maggots and toads and now the nations league which started as an honourable distraction from pointless friendlies scheduling games bang on top of each other with no time to rest, recover, train and prepare in between. In June! Fucking let them have a proper break, all this has done is let a ton of people throw mud at the most successful manager we have had in most of our lifetimes and propose we replace him rather than acknowledge the fixtures have been atrociously planned.
If this was a normal world cup year, THIS is the fucking garbage we would be served up right now. How much recovery would they have had? stop making excuses
the world cup has been played for decades after the normal season in june/july
It was the 4th friendly (dressed up as a competition) in 11 days in June when the players should have been on the beach recovering from a 10 month season.
I'm surprised some people think friendlies against Hungary hold the same importance as a World Cup.3
