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Wayne Rooney's Derby County - not any more (p41)

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  • aliwibble
    aliwibble Posts: 26,273
    But they don't own their stadium, do they?
  • Rudders22
    Rudders22 Posts: 3,864
    golfaddick said:
    SporadicAddick said:
    Addickted said:
    https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2021/09/derby-county-board-of-directors-statement-17th-september-2021
    All the fault of the EFL and Coronavirus apparently - nothing to do with them.
    Quite.

    They blame Covid as they couldn't hold face to face meetings with prospective purchasers. What crap. Even in lockdown business people were allowed to travel & no one was held prisoner in their homes.

    And blaming the EFL for investigating transgressions that were of Derby's own making. 
    Thomas managed to takeover a football club in that time, 
  • Notts_Addick
    Notts_Addick Posts: 376
    aliwibble said:
    But they don't own their stadium, do they?
    From what I can gather no they don't, it is owned my MSD holdings who have lent lots of clubs money during the pandemic. I think they did own it outright at what point but clearly through mis-management have ended up selling the family silver.

    But I think the point being made by Maguire was whoever takes over the club is going to find a way of getting the stadium, whether they buy it outright or rent it, it's still a pretty modern stadium with decent capacity. Derby are a one city club and I don't see any owners buying the club and not finding a way of still playing at Pride Park.
  • Fumbluff
    Fumbluff Posts: 10,125
    golfaddick said:
    Have they done this as they know that they have transgressed so much that they were likely to incur MORE than a 12 point deduction from the EFL (very unlikely imo) and si they thought that they would "get in there first".

    Also, what debts do they have. I thought the pount of administration was that the admusteatirs were brought in to sell assets to pay off debts.....usually a step or 2 before bankruptcy. What "assets" do Derby have  that they can sell ??  Especially as the transfer window doesnt open for another 3+ months 
    Loads of saleable assets, Training bibs, cones, chairs, knives & forks, pube-follicle re-insertion kits…..the usual
  • TelMc32
    TelMc32 Posts: 9,045
    Interesting to see the valuation on the stadium if new owners do buy it back. Gives a bit of a yardstick for Thomas and The Valley. 
  • jams
    jams Posts: 1,219
    Sick of their bollocks, should've long been relegated so if they finally get a decent points deduction it's been coming for a very long time
  • Redrobo
    Redrobo Posts: 11,330
    jams said:
    Sick of their bollocks, should've long been relegated so if they finally get a decent points deduction it's been coming for a very long time
    It should give the EFL a chance to set a precedent by giving them a 12 point deduction for the financial irregularities as they are getting relegated anyway.
  • golfaddick
    golfaddick Posts: 33,622
    jams said:
    Sick of their bollocks, should've long been relegated so if they finally get a decent points deduction it's been coming for a very long time
    Earlier Sky were talking about a double points deduction. 12 for going into administration & also 9 for the financial irregularities. Still cant see it myself. 
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 35,999
    Addickted said:
    May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
    Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.
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  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,609
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    Addickted said:
    May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
    Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.
    Didn’t Leeds do this many years ago and still got a points deduction the following season?
  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 35,999
    guinnessaddick said:
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    Addickted said:
    May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
    Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.
    Didn’t Leeds do this many years ago and still got a points deduction the following season?
    Yeah i think that was different though. I'm sure there were some issues around their CVA so they got done again.
  • se9addick
    se9addick Posts: 32,033
    TelMc32 said:
    Interesting to see the valuation on the stadium if new owners do buy it back. Gives a bit of a yardstick for Thomas and The Valley. 
    We’ll see, doubt the land values are at all comparable. From visiting a few times when we’ve played there I recall that Pride Park is rather out of the way on a commercial/retail estate type area in a part of the country where the average house price is £4.75. They do have a nearby Harvester though which will increase the asking price for the stadium somewhat. 
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    edited September 2021
    guinnessaddick said:
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    Addickted said:
    May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
    Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.
    Didn’t Leeds do this many years ago and still got a points deduction the following season?
    To be fair Leeds did it at half time on the final day.

    Edit the CVA issues were for coming out of administration without any. 
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,841
    I thought the deal was that Derby sold their stadium to Mel Morris their owner for a ludicrous £80m. If he still owns it, then it's in "friendly" hands
  • RonnieMoore
    RonnieMoore Posts: 4,496
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 
  • JustFloydRoad
    JustFloydRoad Posts: 1,611
    RonnieMoore said:
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 

    It is part the EFL rules isn’t it (that they can delay)?
  • ForeverAddickted
    ForeverAddickted Posts: 94,300
    JustFloydRoad said:
    RonnieMoore said:
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 

    It is part the EFL rules isn’t it (that they can delay)?
    Usually its a case that they'll wait and see if the club stays up regardless before issuing the deduction.

    e.g. Wigan didnt get their points deduction straight away as had they got relegated on their own, their deduction would have taken place last season, instead of finishing mid-table and being relegated with us... Of course had they been more than 12-pts from safety then they still would have had the deduction in 2019/20, they just would have survived, ironically had Bonne not scored that last minute goal then they would have survived.

    Would they do that at such an early stage of the current season though?
  • Todds_right_hook
    Todds_right_hook Posts: 10,878
    RonnieMoore said:
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 
    They are on 7 points, 2 points above Blackpool. 12 points deducted will leave them 10 from safety.
  • Notts_Addick
    Notts_Addick Posts: 376
    killerandflash said:
    I thought the deal was that Derby sold their stadium to Mel Morris their owner for a ludicrous £80m. If he still owns it, then it's in "friendly" hands
    I think that's correct however they have subsequently taken a loan out with MSD Holdings who own a charge on the stadium, now they've entered administration MSD are entitled to any proceeds from the sale of the stadium to cover their debt. I think I also heard that in theory MSD could now purchase the stadium at a knock down price given they are owed money on it and then just rent out the asset to whoever takes over.




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  • Redrobo
    Redrobo Posts: 11,330
    RonnieMoore said:
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 
    Part of me suspects that this a negotiation tactic, but I hope not. There is no doubt in my mind that the Club deserves to be relegated. They may have been cleared with regard to the ‘sale’ of their ground, but it left a nasty taste in the mouth as fans knew that they were twisting the rules to try and cheat their way into the Premiership.
    And that cheating has continued over the entire ownership of their super rich ‘fan’ and the other wealthy board members. They have not run out of money, they are fed up with throwing it away. I hate to guess what other Derby fans think of him now, as they have now been cheated themselves.
    I hope Derby break the record for points deducted and that they get another 12 points deducted for their other financial scams. There is no way that they should be allowed to escape relegation. 
    My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.
  • Notts_Addick
    Notts_Addick Posts: 376
    Notts_Addick said:
    Redrobo said:
    RonnieMoore said:
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 

    My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.
    I remember reading an article in the year Leicester were on their way to winning the Premier League. A local businessman had to shut his family business when Leicester went into administration as they owed up him about 200k. I think in the end he got offered something pathetic like 20% of that and couldn't absorb the costs. 

    Him and his family were Leicester supporters all their life and his business had been supplying the club for years. He couldn't find the stomach to get excited about their title run given how shabbily he had been treated, and quite rightly. Not only was he robbed of his family business through no fault of his own he was robbed of the opportunity to celebrate a once in a lifetime event for a club he had supported all his life.

    I remember thinking about that man when they won the Premier League, I can't recall what it was exactly, either cars or watches, but the chairman went out and bought every single player something to the tune of about 100k each I think it was and how a lot of businesses probably went under for a fraction of that amount.

    I'm not saying the new owners of Leicester had any obligation to service old debts from years before they bought the club, but listening to the radio today all the talk is about Derby County the institution as opposed to the many  staff and businesses who are going to be waking up this morning not giving a damn about the football club and actually wondering if there'll be paid at the end of the month. 


    On the plus side the Directors of Derby should be OK.
  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,609
    Notts_Addick said:
    Redrobo said:
    RonnieMoore said:
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 

    My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.
    I remember reading an article in the year Leicester were on their way to winning the Premier League. A local businessman had to shut his family business when Leicester went into administration as they owed up him about 200k. I think in the end he got offered something pathetic like 20% of that and couldn't absorb the costs. 




     When Ipswich went into admin, they were paying 6p in the pound.
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club. 
  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 35,999
    Redrobo said:
    RonnieMoore said:
    The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL 
    Part of me suspects that this a negotiation tactic, but I hope not. There is no doubt in my mind that the Club deserves to be relegated. They may have been cleared with regard to the ‘sale’ of their ground, but it left a nasty taste in the mouth as fans knew that they were twisting the rules to try and cheat their way into the Premiership.
    And that cheating has continued over the entire ownership of their super rich ‘fan’ and the other wealthy board members. They have not run out of money, they are fed up with throwing it away. I hate to guess what other Derby fans think of him now, as they have now been cheated themselves.
    I hope Derby break the record for points deducted and that they get another 12 points deducted for their other financial scams. There is no way that they should be allowed to escape relegation. 
    My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.
    They'll have to go some to catch Luton. They were deducted 10 points one season for going into admin and then the next season they were deducted 30.

    Not surprisingly they went down both seasons, league one to the National league.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club. 
    I don't disagree but you have got to prove it.  Most of the irregularities are basically accounting methods to pass FFP.  If these were done to avoid tax it would take nearly 10 years to exhaust all the possible appeals.  The EFL don't have the powers of discovery or the resource and expertise, nor can they retrospectively change the law, like HMRC can/has.

    The one change that would stop all this nonsense is to say you can spend as much as you like but it has to be in equity, not loans, from the owner/investers. 
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    edited September 2021
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club. 
    I don't disagree but you have got to prove it.  Most of the irregularities are basically accounting methods to pass FFP.  If these were done to avoid tax it would take nearly 10 years to exhaust all the possible appeals.  The EFL don't have the powers of discovery or the resource and expertise, nor can they retrospectively change the law, like HMRC can/has.

    The one change that would stop all this nonsense is to say you can spend as much as you like but it has to be in equity, not loans, from the owner/investers. 
    That’s a very fair point. My only response is that if and when the irregularities are proven, even if that’s years from the start of the irregularity occurring and even under different ownership, then the penalty should not involve points deductions negotiable with the club but automatic relegation two divisions. Any business can fail without irregularities and of course that needs to be recognised but it’s the shenanigans Derby and others have been engaged in that has to be completely stopped.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    edited September 2021
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club. 
    I don't disagree but you have got to prove it.  Most of the irregularities are basically accounting methods to pass FFP.  If these were done to avoid tax it would take nearly 10 years to exhaust all the possible appeals.  The EFL don't have the powers of discovery or the resource and expertise, nor can they retrospectively change the law, like HMRC can/has.

    The one change that would stop all this nonsense is to say you can spend as much as you like but it has to be in equity, not loans, from the owner/investers. 
    That’s a very fair point. My only response is that if and when the irregularities are proven, even if that’s years from the start of the irregularity occurring and even under different ownership, then the penalty should not involve points deductions negotiable with the club but automatic relegation two divisions. Any business can fail without irregularities and of course that needs to be recognised but it’s the shenanigans Derby and others have been engaged in that has to be completely stopped.
    But that's the point, they can't prove them without the cooperation of the club.  They don't have anyway of doing it. 

    They can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt, nor the lower threshold of civil law, without negotiating.  The only leverage they have is on a quip pro quo basis else the whole thing would be tied up in the courts, with a massive back log, for years.

    If you waited until it was proven who would you actually be punishing?  
  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    Could this mean players available cheap in January? 

    I know it's a bit like vultures at a dead carcass... But we could do with a few January signings to strengthen our squad further.

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