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Wayne Rooney's Derby County - not any more (p41)

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  • stoneroses19
    stoneroses19 Posts: 7,218
    Staggering how many Derby fans are on Twitter saying this is all unfair as everything the club has done is legal and within rules. If they as fans refuse to accept what the owners have done, then I give up. 
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    Eventually the rot has to be stopped though. Derby are breaking the rules it seems almost with gay abandon. Every time they break a rule they get an unfair advantage on every club not doing so. There are three clubs that are going to get relegated from the Championship this season. That’s a big deal. If there isn’t an enforced level playing field then what’s the point of the competition. I have nothing against Derby or their fans but action needs to be taken and it needs to be very tough. There has to be a sanction that acts as a real deterrent.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    Eventually the rot has to be stopped though. Derby are breaking the rules it seems almost with gay abandon. Every time they break a rule they get an unfair advantage on every club not doing so. There are three clubs that are going to get relegated from the Championship this season. That’s a big deal. If there isn’t an enforced level playing field then what’s the point of the competition. I have nothing against Derby or their fans but action needs to be taken and it needs to be very tough. There has to be a sanction that acts as a real deterrent.
    A deterrent to whom?  The owner wants out and doesn't want to pay the bills 
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    edited September 2021
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    Eventually the rot has to be stopped though. Derby are breaking the rules it seems almost with gay abandon. Every time they break a rule they get an unfair advantage on every club not doing so. There are three clubs that are going to get relegated from the Championship this season. That’s a big deal. If there isn’t an enforced level playing field then what’s the point of the competition. I have nothing against Derby or their fans but action needs to be taken and it needs to be very tough. There has to be a sanction that acts as a real deterrent.
    A deterrent to whom?  The owner wants out and doesn't want to pay the bills 
    A deterrent to all owners that see breaking the rules as a way of gaining an advantage be that financial or anything else. Their owner wants out…. So what. The football club are part of the football pyramid where they agreed to play by the rules every club helped set. It’s the club not the owner,  although I accept the two are inextricably linked. 
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    Eventually the rot has to be stopped though. Derby are breaking the rules it seems almost with gay abandon. Every time they break a rule they get an unfair advantage on every club not doing so. There are three clubs that are going to get relegated from the Championship this season. That’s a big deal. If there isn’t an enforced level playing field then what’s the point of the competition. I have nothing against Derby or their fans but action needs to be taken and it needs to be very tough. There has to be a sanction that acts as a real deterrent.
    A deterrent to whom?  The owner wants out and doesn't want to pay the bills 
    A deterrent to all owners that see breaking the rules as a way of gaining an advantage be that financial or anything else. Their owner wants out…. So what. The football club are part of the football pyramid where they agreed to play by the rules every club helped set. It’s the club not the owner,  although I accept the two are inextricably linked. 
    Surely it's the owner that needs to be punished, not the club that he no longer wants to bankroll?

    No one was happy that Wigan were punished when that happened.

    I have no idea what the answer is BTW. 
  • alangee
    alangee Posts: 398
    Derby County have managed to stay in the Championship for the last two seasons undeservedly, by breaking the rules.  When they are charged, there always seems to be an extended time before their case is resolved, which in the last two seasons has enabled them to hang on to their position in the league.  Unless the punishment period is speeded up, and fully observed (not just a slap on the wrist with a £100K fine), they will manage to appeal the various infractions and stretch it out for another season.
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    Eventually the rot has to be stopped though. Derby are breaking the rules it seems almost with gay abandon. Every time they break a rule they get an unfair advantage on every club not doing so. There are three clubs that are going to get relegated from the Championship this season. That’s a big deal. If there isn’t an enforced level playing field then what’s the point of the competition. I have nothing against Derby or their fans but action needs to be taken and it needs to be very tough. There has to be a sanction that acts as a real deterrent.
    A deterrent to whom?  The owner wants out and doesn't want to pay the bills 
    A deterrent to all owners that see breaking the rules as a way of gaining an advantage be that financial or anything else. Their owner wants out…. So what. The football club are part of the football pyramid where they agreed to play by the rules every club helped set. It’s the club not the owner,  although I accept the two are inextricably linked. 
    Surely it's the owner that needs to be punished, not the club that he no longer wants to bankroll?

    No one was happy that Wigan were punished when that happened.

    I have no idea what the answer is BTW. 
    Not trying to be deliberately contrary here but I totally disagree. Derby County Football club broke the rules. Certainly under the guidance and authority of the owner but it was the football club that broke them and it’s the football club that should pay the penalty. No other option is either possible or desirable. 
  • Redrobo
    Redrobo Posts: 11,330
    Break the rules and the punishment has to be harsh. 
    Being reckless with transfers and expenditure has to be exactly that. Reckless. You get relegated automatically. He had a punt to make millions. Hard luck, he lost. His Club should be in league 1 minimum and worth even less that he paid. If I had my way it would be non league.
    It is the only punishment that fits the crime of cheating. Cheating is the worst thing in any sport. We have to stop it.
    Yes, I would feel sorry for the fans, but Wigan are bouncing back. So are Sheffield Wednesday.
  • Redrobo
    Redrobo Posts: 11,330
    Wigan did not cheat I know.
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  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    edited September 2021
    Redrobo said:
    Wigan did not cheat I know.
    Wigan did cheat, they paid players money they didn't have.... 
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,842
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    The obvious solution is to immediately relegate Derby to L1, where they will swap places with an L1 side who will play the rest of the season in the Championship

    I'd suggest as the criteria, to pick the other side in a major game involving both sides, say the 1946 FA Cup final
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    killerandflash said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    The obvious solution is to immediately relegate Derby to L1, where they will swap places with an L1 side who will play the rest of the season in the Championship

    I'd suggest as the criteria, to pick the other side in a major game involving both sides, say the 1946 FA Cup final
    They should have been relegated last season but they could not prove they had cheated until they resubmit the accounts.  Its a farce because the EFL can't actually investigate it, they have to wait for Derby to provide the evidence!! 
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    What a great suggestion @golfaddick.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,437
    killerandflash said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    The obvious solution is to immediately relegate Derby to L1, where they will swap places with an L1 side who will play the rest of the season in the Championship

    I'd suggest as the criteria, to pick the other side in a major game involving both sides, say the 1946 FA Cup final
    Not sure they have they squad for L1 let alone the Championship!
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    golfaddick said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    If they fine the club it doesn't make much difference.  Because they can't/won't pay it. 

    Can they fine the owner/directors personally?

    If they dock them 20 points people will say its not enough.  If they dock them enough to automatically relegate them now they will be left with 40 meaningless games on their fixture list. 

    There is no appite from the EFL or the public to expel them. 

    There needs to be some sort of solution but I have no idea what it is. 


    Eventually the rot has to be stopped though. Derby are breaking the rules it seems almost with gay abandon. Every time they break a rule they get an unfair advantage on every club not doing so. There are three clubs that are going to get relegated from the Championship this season. That’s a big deal. If there isn’t an enforced level playing field then what’s the point of the competition. I have nothing against Derby or their fans but action needs to be taken and it needs to be very tough. There has to be a sanction that acts as a real deterrent.
    A deterrent to whom?  The owner wants out and doesn't want to pay the bills 
    A deterrent to all owners that see breaking the rules as a way of gaining an advantage be that financial or anything else. Their owner wants out…. So what. The football club are part of the football pyramid where they agreed to play by the rules every club helped set. It’s the club not the owner,  although I accept the two are inextricably linked. 
    Surely it's the owner that needs to be punished, not the club that he no longer wants to bankroll?

    No one was happy that Wigan were punished when that happened.

    I have no idea what the answer is BTW. 
    How about penalties based on the players involved in the non payment of transfer fees. It seems that Derby haven't paid part of the transfer fee by a certain date. Therefore the player shouldn't be theirs. And therefore the player had been playing "ineligibily". And the usual fine for playing an ineligible player is forfeit of match (usually in the cup) or loss of points gained in the match the player was involved in or a deduction of points. 

    So all the EFL have to do is name the player(s) this breach involves & the matches they have played. Then deduct points accordingly. The rules for playing ineligible players already exists. Just takes the will to take suitable action. 
     
    Good idea but I think the only player they owe money to an English club for is Beilik and he isn't playing for a while. 
  • Notts_Addick
    Notts_Addick Posts: 376
    I have a few friends who support Derby and they are pretty concerned about the state of their club and probably with good reason.

    They don't have any inside information although the rumour in the local area is the owner has essentially run out of money. It may also be that he has just lost interest and got sick of throwing money at the club although given the fact he's a local fan and has put considerable sums of cash into the club in years gone by I suspect that's unlikely.

    When you see the list of characters he has tried selling the club to recently, including a well known associate of Southall, it does tend to point towards desperate measures. None of those individuals ever looked like they were serious enough players to buy a football club and the fact they stayed in the frame so long suggested that there weren't really any other offers forthcoming from any genuine parties. 

    I think there's often a feeling that football clubs are to big to fail, and that for all the talk of numerous clubs being at risk there'll always be someone out there willing to invest in a football club. I think the issue we are now seeing is there are less and less of these prospective new owners and I have no doubt whatsoever there'll be another Bury situation in the next couple of years, I think it's almost guaranteed. My gut feeling is Derby are a big enough team that someone will come along at some point but I imagine it depends on the size of the debt they are likely to inherit.

    In terms of these latest breaches surely a points deduction must be forthcoming. I read today that Derby and the EFL were in 'negotiations' around potential punishments, quite how that works i dont know. They have either breached the rules or they haven't, and I think its pretty clear they have breached the rules, but nobody knows how many and by how much. Whilst I do have sympathy with the fans of the club, it is hard to sympathise with the club itself when they are currently paying their manager 90k a week. The fact any member of playing or coaching staff at a championship club can earn 90k a week defies belief.


  • Huskaris
    Huskaris Posts: 9,844
    Think they'll struggle to sell it if they don't have audited accounts prepared!

    The non payment of transfer installments is worrying, but non payment of HMRC bills could end very very badly for them, although I'm sure with COVID, HMRC won't be as harsh as they would be otherwise. 
  • killerandflash
    killerandflash Posts: 69,842
    Notts_Addick said:
    I have a few friends who support Derby and they are pretty concerned about the state of their club and probably with good reason.

    They don't have any inside information although the rumour in the local area is the owner has essentially run out of money. It may also be that he has just lost interest and got sick of throwing money at the club although given the fact he's a local fan and has put considerable sums of cash into the club in years gone by I suspect that's unlikely.

    When you see the list of characters he has tried selling the club to recently, including a well known associate of Southall, it does tend to point towards desperate measures. None of those individuals ever looked like they were serious enough players to buy a football club and the fact they stayed in the frame so long suggested that there weren't really any other offers forthcoming from any genuine parties. 

    I think there's often a feeling that football clubs are to big to fail, and that for all the talk of numerous clubs being at risk there'll always be someone out there willing to invest in a football club. I think the issue we are now seeing is there are less and less of these prospective new owners and I have no doubt whatsoever there'll be another Bury situation in the next couple of years, I think it's almost guaranteed. My gut feeling is Derby are a big enough team that someone will come along at some point but I imagine it depends on the size of the debt they are likely to inherit.

    In terms of these latest breaches surely a points deduction must be forthcoming. I read today that Derby and the EFL were in 'negotiations' around potential punishments, quite how that works i dont know. They have either breached the rules or they haven't, and I think its pretty clear they have breached the rules, but nobody knows how many and by how much. Whilst I do have sympathy with the fans of the club, it is hard to sympathise with the club itself when they are currently paying their manager 90k a week. The fact any member of playing or coaching staff at a championship club can earn 90k a week defies belief.


    The owner has run out of money to invest in the club, the Rooney signing was the final gamble. Of course things could have been different if Derby had beaten Villa in the playoffs, as Villa themselves were in a financial mess.

    It's really hard for decent buyers to come forward as financially there are so many unknowns that a potential buyer could be letting themselves become liable for. Hence only the spivs and crooks coming forward. Plus the potential for EFL punishments for all their transgressions, if the EFL have any balls, then Derby will be severely punished, which could immediately make your investment worth far less
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  • cafc999
    cafc999 Posts: 4,967
    edited September 2021
    SELR_addicks said:


    Imagine being so weak you have to negotiate with a club about their own punishment. 
    In a competition that they run
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    So they can pretty much break the rules again with only an additional three point deduction. EFL are pathetic. 
  • Fumbluff
    Fumbluff Posts: 10,125
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    So they can pretty much break the rules again with only an additional three point deduction. EFL are pathetic. 
    I mean you’d hope that if they break the rules again similarly they’d get the three suspended points plus nine fresh points plus another fresh three points suspended for another year but they’ll probably just get a bag of chipsticks…
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,219
    I can understand why but it's still ridiculous.

    The EFL want agreement in advice so it doesn't get appealed and dragged out for another season.

    But that just shows how weak they are.


  • golfaddick
    golfaddick Posts: 33,622
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    So they can pretty much break the rules again with only an additional three point deduction. EFL are pathetic. 
    I would like to think the suspended 3 points would be enforced if the accounts weren't sent to CH within a certain time period and/or HMRC being paid by a certain time.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    Henry Irving said:
    I can understand why but it's still ridiculous.

    The EFL want agreement in advice so it doesn't get appealed and dragged out for another season.

    But that just shows how weak they are.


    What do the rules say should happen?

    The EFL are very weak, that isn't the fault of the EFL though.  We often hear the slogan "by fans, for fans" the EFL should use "by owners, for owners" because that's what it is. 
  • RickAddick
    RickAddick Posts: 1,198
    Henry Irving said:
    I can understand why but it's still ridiculous.

    The EFL want agreement in advice so it doesn't get appealed and dragged out for another season.

    But that just shows how weak they are.


    Starting to feel quite emotional for the EFL...
    Bless them!
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,441
    I would like to see Derby given extra points to help them survive this season - we need to support the bigger clubs and Wayne Rooney.
  • thickandthin63
    thickandthin63 Posts: 2,952
    Dont know why a man as rich as Rooney is putting up with this,he is on hiding to nothing,he will walk before long.

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