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Laurel Hubbard
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4
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I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️2 -
What about that Babs Bantia who transitioned to a man so that he could win the men's world ironing championship?kentaddick said:
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.Cafc43v3r said:
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.PaddyP17 said:
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.SporadicAddick said:
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?PaddyP17 said:
Mods plsLincsaddick said:agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
But you are free to share your thoughts?
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
It's PC gone mad I tells ya.0 -
What I was just about to say. I find the whole thing a farce. If however I’d had a daughter who lets say had dreamed all her life of being an Olympic swimmer, had been getting up at 5am since 8yrs old for pre-school pool sessions, sacrificed her teenage years and potential career prospects to try and be the best in a low paid sport, only to never have a realistic opportunity because a male elite swimmer had decided to transition, I’d be calling it more than a farce.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️21 -
This.ME14addick said:Surely there can't be any satisfaction for her if she wins the competition, when she clearly has a physical advantage over other women.
How on earth can you feel it’s fair 🤷♀️Probably why I never exceeded in all the sports I did, never had that killer competitive edge.1 -
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.19 -
That's nothing about anything I said or hinted at.kentaddick said:
Oh great, a handful of anecdotal evidence if I search specifically on google. What about hard data? Where’s the trend of this happening?Cafc43v3r said:
There are dozens of examples freely available on the Internet. It happens. I specifically said for fame, money or power. No reference to sport at all.kentaddick said:
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.Cafc43v3r said:
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.PaddyP17 said:
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.SporadicAddick said:
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?PaddyP17 said:
Mods plsLincsaddick said:agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
But you are free to share your thoughts?
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
It's nothing like saying your gay for attention.Many of the arguments against trans athletes, and trans people is identical to the rubbish said about homosexuals in the 20th century - that they’re perverts, groomers, sly and tricksters. It’s rubbish, with no hard evidence to back it up. It is exactly the same - as they’re an lgbtq group and it’s the exact same rubbish that was written about gay athletes.
The argument, as you put it, about trans athletes is one of biological advantage. I have already said I don't know what the answer is. Because put simply there isn't an easy one. Nothing to do them being perverts, groomers, sly or tricksters.
Also if you actually read what I said it was with reference to MEN assuming female gender, not being trans, which is a different subject and one I shouldn't have raised.0 -
You’d think so wouldn’t you but there are endless examples of sportsmen and women gaining an unfair advantage (cheating) by using drugs and they don’t seem to care about it until they’re caught. I’ve always thought drugs cheats should never be allowed back into their sport. As for this current discussion regarding transition athletes. I can’t help thinking that they should not be allowed to compete. I completely believe that those transitioning should be treated with total respect and supported in exactly the same way as we should all expect to be treated but I can’t see the fairness in what’s currently happening.ME14addick said:Surely there can't be any satisfaction for her if she wins the competition, when she clearly has a physical advantage over other women.3 -
Every athlete has a biological advantage - some swimmers have webbed feet which has been proven to give them an advantage - should they be banned from competing? There could be non trans atheletes that have the exact same biological advantages that a trans person supposedly has - should they be stopped from competing too?Cafc43v3r said:
That's nothing about anything I said or hinted at.kentaddick said:
Oh great, a handful of anecdotal evidence if I search specifically on google. What about hard data? Where’s the trend of this happening?Cafc43v3r said:
There are dozens of examples freely available on the Internet. It happens. I specifically said for fame, money or power. No reference to sport at all.kentaddick said:
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.Cafc43v3r said:
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.PaddyP17 said:
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.SporadicAddick said:
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?PaddyP17 said:
Mods plsLincsaddick said:agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
But you are free to share your thoughts?
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
It's nothing like saying your gay for attention.Many of the arguments against trans athletes, and trans people is identical to the rubbish said about homosexuals in the 20th century - that they’re perverts, groomers, sly and tricksters. It’s rubbish, with no hard evidence to back it up. It is exactly the same - as they’re an lgbtq group and it’s the exact same rubbish that was written about gay athletes.
The argument, as you put it, about trans athletes is one of biological advantage. I have already said I don't know what the answer is. Because put simply there isn't an easy one. Nothing to do them being perverts, groomers, sly or tricksters.2 -
Seeing as she has absolutely no feeling in her legs, hence being a para athlete, that wouldn’t matter would it.kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
All the competitors in her weight category have differing para issues they all know about before they compete & are access properly because of it.
Being a trans athlete gives you an advantage, simple as.
That doesn’t make you transphobic if you’re not happy with that.
But it doesn’t surprise me that you think it is.15 - Sponsored links:
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Who the hell lol’d @KBslittlesis post above ?0
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Funny that you're the only person on this thread who has even hinted at the words "perverts, groomers, sly and tricksters".
Clearly a male child who had gone through puberty and early adulthood, with stronger bone and muscle formation and density, is going to have a significant advantage over a female competitor, even after their transformation and reduction of testosterone levels.
Not only is it completely unfair on the other competitors it begs the question why would someone who has gone through the pain and hardship of transforming would want to shout out to the World "Look at me" under such controversial circumstances? I mean it's hardly encouraging like minded individuals to follow suit, when actions like this are bound to attract a lot of criticism and vitriol.3 -
The issue is one of categorisation more than anything else.
We separate on gender as in many events females simply can't physically compete with males. If we rename those categories then the issue is far less emotive. If you rename "men's" to "unlimited" then anybody can compete in the unlimited category. That obviously excludes those physically unable to compete, so further categorisations would be required. Trans athletes, females athletics, even many disable athletes would then fall into these further categorisations.
The problem then is naming the categories. Gender was a nice friendly categorisation system, it clearly states you are different, not superior/inferior, even if that was the practical end result in many events.1 -
I was hoping it was a mistake 🙄ShootersHillGuru said:Who the hell lol’d @KBslittlesis post above ?0 -
And Gals.....AFKABartram said:0 -
kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
That’s a pretty wild accusation.
By that standard as well you’re basically saying the olympics should be non-gendered because extreme biological advantages should be celebrated?
I can’t see that working in all honesty.0 -
I honestly missed the para part of the post - apologies, especially about the legs comment, I hope you realise I was using it as an example.KBslittlesis said:
Seeing as she has absolutely no feeling in her legs, hence being a para athlete, that wouldn’t matter would it.kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
All the competitors in her weight category have differing para issues they all know about before they compete & are access properly because of it.
Being a trans athlete gives you an advantage, simple as.
That doesn’t make you transphobic if you’re not happy with that.
But it doesn’t surprise me that you think it is.
Does it give you an advantage? Surely there are other genetic factors that also give them an advantage? Why should trans people suddenly banned because of their biology?0 -
A wild accusation, coming from KentAddick, who’d have thunk it.Laddick01 said:kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
That’s a pretty wild accusation.
By that standard as well you’re basically saying the olympics should be non-gendered because extreme biological advantages should be celebrated?
I can’t see that working in all honesty.9 -
You missed it.kentaddick said:
I honestly missed the para part of the post - apologies, especially about the legs comment.KBslittlesis said:
Seeing as she has absolutely no feeling in her legs, hence being a para athlete, that wouldn’t matter would it.kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
All the competitors in her weight category have differing para issues they all know about before they compete & are access properly because of it.
Being a trans athlete gives you an advantage, simple as.
That doesn’t make you transphobic if you’re not happy with that.
But it doesn’t surprise me that you think it is.
Does it give you an advantage? Surely there are other genetic factors that also give them an advantage? Why should trans people suddenly banned because of their biology?
Is that it?
You missed it.
Nothing gets in the way of you trying to make a point does it?
Jesus.2 -
please don't remove me mods (or rockers for that matter)SporadicAddick said:
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?PaddyP17 said:
Mods plsLincsaddick said:agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
But you are free to share your thoughts?
1 - Sponsored links:
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Does this competitor have XX or XY chromosomes?0
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Who did I accuse of what? No, I was saying what is the line you draw? Are you implying trans women are not women? Shouldn’t women be able to participate in women’s sports?Laddick01 said:kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
That’s a pretty wild accusation.
By that standard as well you’re basically saying the olympics should be non-gendered because extreme biological advantages should be celebrated?
I can’t see that working in all honesty.0 -
Yeah, I missed it and apologised. I’m sorry.KBslittlesis said:
You missed it.kentaddick said:
I honestly missed the para part of the post - apologies, especially about the legs comment.KBslittlesis said:
Seeing as she has absolutely no feeling in her legs, hence being a para athlete, that wouldn’t matter would it.kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
All the competitors in her weight category have differing para issues they all know about before they compete & are access properly because of it.
Being a trans athlete gives you an advantage, simple as.
That doesn’t make you transphobic if you’re not happy with that.
But it doesn’t surprise me that you think it is.
Does it give you an advantage? Surely there are other genetic factors that also give them an advantage? Why should trans people suddenly banned because of their biology?
Is that it?
You missed it.
Nothing gets in the way of you trying to make a point does it?
Jesus.0 -
I didn't fucking say she should be banded I said I don't know the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!kentaddick said:
Every athlete has a biological advantage - some swimmers have webbed feet which has been proven to give them an advantage - should they be banned from competing? There could be non trans atheletes that have the exact same biological advantages that a trans person supposedly has - should they be stopped from competing too?Cafc43v3r said:
That's nothing about anything I said or hinted at.kentaddick said:
Oh great, a handful of anecdotal evidence if I search specifically on google. What about hard data? Where’s the trend of this happening?Cafc43v3r said:
There are dozens of examples freely available on the Internet. It happens. I specifically said for fame, money or power. No reference to sport at all.kentaddick said:
When has that ever happened, and why would that ever be so? There’s no consistent trend of this ever happening and would only ever be in isolated cases anyway.Cafc43v3r said:
But sex is a protected characteristic, the same as race.PaddyP17 said:
If I'd have seriously wanted the mods to step at that point, I'd have messaged one.SporadicAddick said:
Do you want Lincs comment removed (or Lincs himself removed) because you don't agree with him?PaddyP17 said:
Mods plsLincsaddick said:agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc
But you are free to share your thoughts?
As it stands though, I think this sort of erasure of trans people is much the same as making a homophobic or racist comment - ie there should be no tolerance for such. To say "trans women are not real women" (or trans men not real men etc) is undeniably transphobic. It's not a matter of "agreement", in my view - if someone came out with a similar view against another group e.g. race/skin colour, they'd be warned.
Besides, we're on a football message board, so freedom of speech is hardly applicable - mods are free to do what they want in terms of what stays up/who stays on.
It's not transphobic to ask the question when trans rights conflict with women's rights which one one trumps or, without making accusations against anyone named on this thread, how do you stop men (it is nearly always men) abusing the right to self determination for personal gain?
Through out history people have done all sorts of things for fame, money and power and it's wrong to suggest that no one has ever changed their gender identification purely for personal gain.
I have no idea what the answer is but I know these questions exist.Again, it’s like when people used to think people who came out as gay were just doing it for attention.
I also specifically said change their gender identification, not transition.
It's nothing like saying your gay for attention.Many of the arguments against trans athletes, and trans people is identical to the rubbish said about homosexuals in the 20th century - that they’re perverts, groomers, sly and tricksters. It’s rubbish, with no hard evidence to back it up. It is exactly the same - as they’re an lgbtq group and it’s the exact same rubbish that was written about gay athletes.
The argument, as you put it, about trans athletes is one of biological advantage. I have already said I don't know what the answer is. Because put simply there isn't an easy one. Nothing to do them being perverts, groomers, sly or tricksters.
Read the posts before spouting your prepared nonsense.4 -
Made it quite clear why I said that and it wasn't in reference to opinion on trans women in* sport but as a reference to someone's opinions on "real women".ValleyGary said:
Mods pls.AFKABartram said:Farce
If this site is going to tolerate transphobia then fair fucks, I'll fuck off, but don't be deliberately disingenuous when it's clear as day what I'm saying.
(*edit - previously said "reference to opinion on sport", ETA "trans women in sport" to be clearer)2 -
You’ve literally just said her daughter would be transphobic if she wasn’t happy competing against a trans woman?kentaddick said:
Who did I accuse of what? No, I was saying what is the line you draw? Are you implying trans women are not women? Shouldn’t women be able to participate in women’s sports?Laddick01 said:kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
That’s a pretty wild accusation.
By that standard as well you’re basically saying the olympics should be non-gendered because extreme biological advantages should be celebrated?
I can’t see that working in all honesty.That’s absolutely insane to suggest. That’s not a definition of transphobia, it’s just not wanting to compete against a competitor with a serious advantage.
I think you know as well as I do that the majority of trans women have superior biological composition. It’s not a debate, it’s a fact.
Its a shame because this is an interesting debate. As per usual though you are going to crucify others for not holding the same views as yourself.11 -
The best solution would be for transgenders to compete with transgenders.2
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Paddy, As if you wouldn’t know I’m fucking about.
2 -
I thought of Semenya too in relation to this, but my understanding is she is intersex; a person born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't fit the boxes of “female” or “male. She has XY chromosomes not XX as well as having significantly higher testosterone levelsSuedeAdidas said:
I immediately thought of the Semanya case here. The way she has been treated is outrageous imo. Like Paddy says - she is (sorry - I don't know the correct term) and always has been a woman who just happens to have some physiological advantages - albeit different to the physiological advantages as the other mentioned athlete (and many more besides). In a sport that is supposedly against doping - she is effectively being asked to engage in doping to reduce her testosterone levels. It is 100% wrong and very dodgy path to be going down.PaddyP17 said:This thread is going to attract some massively transphobic comments so hopefully the mods will keep an eye.
Though I say that... when it comes to sport, I really don't know how to reconcile trans women competing when there appears to be an unequal playing field, with the evident social progress this signals. I understand a woman (as Hubbard is) competing as a woman - fair enough, but surely she recognises she in all probability has a genetic advantage inherently unavailable to the other competitors? After all, for example, she's 43 - 20 years older than the average age of an Olympic weightlifter.
I also want to get ahead of "men who aren't good enough will transition" - no, being trans is far more of an identity than just sport. Also, please don't misgender Hubbard (who goes by she/her).
Also, in the cases of Semenya and Chand - that they're not allowed to compete without suppressing testosterone levels is pretty appalling. Michael Phelps has always been labelled a genetic freak because he has some sort of thing that means he can build up more lactic acid with less pain, or something (not sure exactly what).
Similarly it appears that Hubbard is only able to complete if her testosterone levels fall within an 'acceptable' range - which it currently does. There are arguments around unfair advantages outside of testosterone levels to do with completing puberty as a male.
I just don't see how this can be safely and consistently reconciled within elite sport where competition is to be 'fair' and 'on a level playing field'. It often isn't in a number of areas - usually to do with available finances or facilities....but this just seems to be a step too far.
I don't know what the answer is - but need to be careful that in trying to accommodate everyone, we end up accommodating noone (or at the most very few).1 -
and this is where i personally lose sympathy with the trans argument as some trans people and some of their allies present it.kentaddick said:
If she was transphobic she would have a problem with it, if she wasn’t, she won’t. Pretty simple really.KBslittlesis said:
I have recently become interested because our niece competes in para weightlifting tournaments for Wales.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.I was wondering how she would feel if she had been training all this time, finally got to an Olympics only to find one of the competitors was a trans woman 🤷♀️What if she went to the olympics only to find a competitor had longer legs, so had more muscles on her legs? It’s the same thing, different genetics give you an advantage and a disadvantage.
Not everyone who questions the role/position of transmen and transwomen is transphobic.
Many of those most uncomfortable with the positioning of trans-women and their rights are not the usual bigots (some of whom have predictably raised their heads on this thread) but feminists who see women's rights and spaces being eroded by demands, and they are often demands not requests, for unlimited access into female spaces (of which female sport is clearly one).
It's a difficult issue that requires a lot of reflection and re-thinking of long held prejudices on all sides. Dismissing transpeople as freaks or doing things for ulterior motives is no more helpful than labeling all people who question access for transpeople as TERFs (a stupid elitist term) or transphobic.
Personally, I know that when I see a transwomen in the street or on TV my initial reaction is "That's a bloke dressed up as a woman", that's my prejudice, but in the next instant I think "so what? It's their life and they can dress as they like. I wouldn't want them telling me how to dress so why the hell should I tell them or even care." That's me challenging my prejudgement/prejudice.
But as I quoted Wendell-Homes above "my fist's freedom ends where someone else's nose begins" or to put it another way I can do what I want until my actions impact on others be that swinging my fists or driving on the wrong side of the road. Or in this case competing in women's sport.
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