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Laurel Hubbard
KBslittlesis
Posts: 8,596
Laurel Hubbard is a New Zealand weightlifter. She is the first transgender athlete who will compete at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.
This has really made me stop in my tracks today.
I’m all for folks identifying themselves as whatever they please but how is this a level playing field?
And why then is Caster, who was born female hounded for having too much testosterone, yet Laurel is free to compete?
Can of worms I feel.
But I mainly feel for the other women athletes competing in the games.
This has really made me stop in my tracks today.
I’m all for folks identifying themselves as whatever they please but how is this a level playing field?
And why then is Caster, who was born female hounded for having too much testosterone, yet Laurel is free to compete?
Can of worms I feel.
But I mainly feel for the other women athletes competing in the games.
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this will rumble on I suspect. grossly unfair.
physiologically Laurel was not female until recently so it’s just unfair to compete against women.
what’s to stop someone claiming they identify as a child and cleaning up at kids events?As you say if people want to transition that’s their prerogative but surely they can’t then compete as their new gender if their body is/was fundamentally different2 -
This thread is going to attract some massively transphobic comments so hopefully the mods will keep an eye.
Though I say that... when it comes to sport, I really don't know how to reconcile trans women competing when there appears to be an unequal playing field, with the evident social progress this signals. I understand a woman (as Hubbard is) competing as a woman - fair enough, but surely she recognises she in all probability has a genetic advantage inherently unavailable to the other competitors? After all, for example, she's 43 - 20 years older than the average age of an Olympic weightlifter.
I also want to get ahead of "men who aren't good enough will transition" - no, being trans is far more of an identity than just sport. Also, please don't misgender Hubbard (who goes by she/her).
Also, in the cases of Semenya and Chand - that they're not allowed to compete without suppressing testosterone levels is pretty appalling. Michael Phelps has always been labelled a genetic freak because he has some sort of thing that means he can build up more lactic acid with less pain, or something (not sure exactly what).
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Many people cheat in sport ( and to me this is beyond cheating) used to love the Olympics but now it’s a joke.5
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Personally just think its unfair. No problem identifying and transitioning to a different sex but genetically she will have a massive advantage over the other competitors.5
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Imagine training for an event for 4 years and then this just before you compete8
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One of those situations where I don’t agree with it, but I don’t know how you fix it.
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agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.3
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Sport uniquely has categories to ensure even competition, and to give more people a chance of competing and winning. You can't compare sport with other professions.
Hence men and women compete separately unless in a sport where the physical differences are irrelevant (e.g. equestrian events), weightlifters, boxers and wrestlers all have separate weight classes, Paralympians have a mass of separate categories etc
In this case, I don't think it's fair on the other competitors as Hubbard will still have the benefit of a male physique.
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Insisting that trans women are to all intents and purposes just like any other women is a classic Emporer's New Clothes situation. Sporting organisations need to grow a pair (sorry) and tell the shouty trans lobby to fuck off and set up their own competitions.7
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😬Lincsaddick said:agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.0 -
Absolutely spot-on, Paddy
Had to be a bloody weightlifter didn't it? Grist to the reactionary mill. In a way, better if she competes and doesn't win2 -
Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.14 -
If she really wants to make a statement she should compete in the men's3
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Facebook now has over 50 Gender labels - do the Olympics really cater for this?
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To be fair it's more that there is a potential precedent to be set now which could have a very big impact on a lot of other Olympic sports and competitions.Chizz said:Good luck to her.
And I am surprised and delighted to see so many people interested in women's weightlifting. It's not a subject many on CL have shown much interest in, in the past.
Not that I know what the solution is/should be mind you.0 -
Leuth and Paddy are working on it.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Facebook now has over 50 Gender labels - do the Olympics really cater for this?2 -
Will there be a separate non binary event?SantaClaus said:
Leuth and Paddy are working on it.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Facebook now has over 50 Gender labels - do the Olympics really cater for this?0 -
Mods plsLincsaddick said:agree with all the above .. the only fair way out is to have separate competitions for trans men and trans women .. this of course will upset the many who believe, or at worst maintain, that a trans woman is a 'real' woman etc. .. I agree with (amongst others) J K Rowling, only those born with a womb can truly be called female.
I don't think there are enough trans sportspeople for a start. So while this (sport) is an issue I'm less aligned with trans folk on, the rest of your comment is rubbish. What is a "real" woman, in any case? And what about women born without a womb? Etc etc etc5 - Sponsored links:
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For all the pain, perseverance and soul searching anyone must go through to transition..I think that competing in sport against your new gender should be something you should sacrifice3
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I immediately thought of the Semanya case here. The way she has been treated is outrageous imo. Like Paddy says - she is (sorry - I don't know the correct term) and always has been a woman who just happens to have some physiological advantages - albeit different to the physiological advantages as the other mentioned athlete (and many more besides). In a sport that is supposedly against doping - she is effectively being asked to engage in doping to reduce her testosterone levels. It is 100% wrong and very dodgy path to be going down.PaddyP17 said:This thread is going to attract some massively transphobic comments so hopefully the mods will keep an eye.
Though I say that... when it comes to sport, I really don't know how to reconcile trans women competing when there appears to be an unequal playing field, with the evident social progress this signals. I understand a woman (as Hubbard is) competing as a woman - fair enough, but surely she recognises she in all probability has a genetic advantage inherently unavailable to the other competitors? After all, for example, she's 43 - 20 years older than the average age of an Olympic weightlifter.
I also want to get ahead of "men who aren't good enough will transition" - no, being trans is far more of an identity than just sport. Also, please don't misgender Hubbard (who goes by she/her).
Also, in the cases of Semenya and Chand - that they're not allowed to compete without suppressing testosterone levels is pretty appalling. Michael Phelps has always been labelled a genetic freak because he has some sort of thing that means he can build up more lactic acid with less pain, or something (not sure exactly what).
Similarly it appears that Hubbard is only able to complete if her testosterone levels fall within an 'acceptable' range - which it currently does. There are arguments around unfair advantages outside of testosterone levels to do with completing puberty as a male.
I just don't see how this can be safely and consistently reconciled within elite sport where competition is to be 'fair' and 'on a level playing field'. It often isn't in a number of areas - usually to do with available finances or facilities....but this just seems to be a step too far.
I don't know what the answer is - but need to be careful that in trying to accommodate everyone, we end up accommodating noone (or at the most very few).
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Hubbard made the massive decision to identify as a woman. No one can ever suggest that this was a straight forward decision to make or anything other than an extremely painful metal and physical process either. But she should now make another big decision and that is to withdraw from the Olympics because her participation serves to undermine all the efforts of those who were born a woman. They have not been afforded the significant advantage she has given that she went through puberty and remained a man for the first 35 years of her life. Suppressing hormone levels, according to recent scientific papers, will not reduce her power and strength advantages.
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The physical development of a trans woman and a biological woman will be different - a trans female athlete will potentially have a significant physical advantage. It will be very difficult to come up with a satisfactory solution which is seen as fair.2
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I’m convinced that there is no solution to this issue.10
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There a lots of solutions.......but there won't be one that is seen to be fair by all.ShootersHillGuru said:I’m convinced that there is no solution to this issue.
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Just posting here so I will be alerted when new comments are posted. Popcorn at the ready.
Carry on everyone1 -
This is a massively challenging issue for anyone with a balanced perspective. Such strong arguments about this from both sides. I just can’t see how a consensus can ever be reached. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try though …2
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That’s hardly a solution then.SuedeAdidas said:
There a lots of solutions.......but there won't be one that is seen to be fair by all.ShootersHillGuru said:I’m convinced that there is no solution to this issue.1 -
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