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80 Years Ago Today .. Germany Invaded Poland
Lincsaddick
Posts: 32,376
and the world changed forever ..
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A horrifically wasteful six years, with dire consequences. So sad.0
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They had already invaded this country, but apparently that was kind of Ok, from a British perspective.
"Lest we forget" sometimes has a nuance of meaning, according to where in Europe you are...9 -
I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.5
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The annexing of the Sudetenland is slightly different from the invasion of Poland.PragueAddick said:They had already invaded this country, but apparently that was kind of Ok, from a British perspective.
"Lest we forget" sometimes has a nuance of meaning, according to where in Europe you are...
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I don’t believe Prague is necessarily speaking of the Sudetenland but the invasion in March of the rest of Czechoslovakia which hadn’t been ‘agreed’.Addickted said:
The annexing of the Sudetenland is slightly different from the invasion of Poland.PragueAddick said:They had already invaded this country, but apparently that was kind of Ok, from a British perspective.
"Lest we forget" sometimes has a nuance of meaning, according to where in Europe you are...1 -
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW10 -
I've just read 'The Silk Roads' by Peter Frankopan, which is a superb book. It has a brilliant chapter on the long term causes of the FWW and I think that war was coming one way or another, although there was a brief moment where it could have been UK and Germany v Russia.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW13 -
Have that book myself on my Reader... Keep meaning to get round to it as have heard rave reviewsUboat said:
I've just read 'The Silk Roads' by Peter Frankopan, which is a superb book. It has a brilliant chapter on the long term causes of the FWW and I think that war was coming one way or another, although there was a brief moment where it could have been UK and Germany v Russia.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW10 -
And sixteen days later they were invaded from the other direction by the Russians. That so many Polish soldiers and airman escaped and fought with the Allies is pretty miraculous.4
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My father's side of the family in Riga, Latvia, were stuck between the two invasions and mass cruelty. Thank goodness his mother had held on to her British passport from when she was a child in Wales, before her mother got remarried to a Latvian. So they were relocated as displaced persons to GB in 1948, with his childhood stolen like so many at the time.Yorkshireaddick said:And sixteen days later they were invaded from the other direction by the Russians. That so many Polish soldiers and airman escaped and fought with the Allies is pretty miraculous.
My father adored this country and all it stood for as the best in the world.12 -
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Not helped either by Queen Victoria's children & close family not liking each other...... being Kings in various countries & not wanting to agree on the best course of action.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW12 -
One What If that interests me from this thread
How big a super power would the United States be even now if WW1 didnt happen... Because of the reparations etc. it was probably the one country to do well out of the War
Prior to it, the European Nations were far superior0 -
I'll agree you're no historian, golfie. The Axis didn't come into being until WW2. I assume you mean the decisions of the Triple Entente (UK, France, Russia) at the end of WW1. I'd argue the reparations etc. demanded by France in particular were somewhat over the top but most of the financial stuff dropped by the wayside and then Hitler ignored the rest, like the demilitarised Rhineland and not having warships over 10,000 tons.golfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Of course, you may have meant the decisions of Germany, Italy and Japan between 1919 and 1939, which certainly did lead to WW2.0 -
there was/is an old cliché spoken about the end of WW2 ..'one hero, Russia, one villain, Germany, and one major victor, the USA' ..ForeverAddickted said:One What If that interests me from this thread
How big a super power would the United States be even now if WW1 didnt happen... Because of the reparations etc. it was probably the one country to do well out of the War
Prior to it, the European Nations were far superiorForeverAddickted said:One What If that interests me from this thread
How big a super power would the United States be even now if WW1 didnt happen... Because of the reparations etc. it was probably the one country to do well out of the War
Prior to it, the European Nations were far superior
America still has troops stationed in Germany, Japan, in fact, all across the globe .. the dollar is the international currency of choice, Hollywood still dominates movies and TV, etc. etc. .. and now of course, America at last perceives China, after years of denial, as a threat to its hegemony
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WW1 is the biggest 'what if' of them all. So much spiraled out from that war, all over the globe.ForeverAddickted said:One What If that interests me from this thread
How big a super power would the United States be even now if WW1 didnt happen... Because of the reparations etc. it was probably the one country to do well out of the War
Prior to it, the European Nations were far superior1 -
a major and largely undiscussed, at least by the mainstream media, cause of European friction at the start of the 20th Centurygolfaddick said:
Not helped either by Queen Victoria's children & close family not liking each other...... being Kings in various countries & not wanting to agree on the best course of action.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW1golfaddick said:
Not helped either by Queen Victoria's children & close family not liking each other...... being Kings in various countries & not wanting to agree on the best course of action.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW1golfaddick said:
Not helped either by Queen Victoria's children & close family not liking each other...... being Kings in various countries & not wanting to agree on the best course of action.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW1golfaddick said:
Not helped either by Queen Victoria's children & close family not liking each other...... being Kings in various countries & not wanting to agree on the best course of action.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW1
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Yes I meant the Big 3. Germany were given no say in any of the reparations & basically forced to sign it at the meeting at Versailles. Hitler fed off this & what the German public saw as being very harshly treated by the rest of the world. This is just my take on the little knowledge I have mind.AddicksAddict said:
I'll agree you're no historian, golfie. The Axis didn't come into being until WW2. I assume you mean the decisions of the Triple Entente (UK, France, Russia) at the end of WW1. I'd argue the reparations etc. demanded by France in particular were somewhat over the top but most of the financial stuff dropped by the wayside and then Hitler ignored the rest, like the demilitarised Rhineland and not having warships over 10,000 tons.golfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Of course, you may have meant the decisions of Germany, Italy and Japan between 1919 and 1939, which certainly did lead to WW2.0 -
Let's hope the "split" between William & Kate and Harry & Meghan doesn't eventually lead to WW3...golfaddick said:
Not helped either by Queen Victoria's children & close family not liking each other...... being Kings in various countries & not wanting to agree on the best course of action.ForeverAddickted said:
You can probably date back all the troubles from today to the moment that Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinandgolfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Had that event not happened then I imagine the world today would be very different
Thats not to say though that another death wouldnt have triggered it all what with the World Powers just itching to start WW11 -
The War, by Ken Burns on Netflix is well worth watching, it shows how America profited due to the war , but also suffered due to huge casualty figures.1
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My uncle was in France the day the first shot was fired.....he was back home when the second one was fired...............but that’s another story!0
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How do the reparations imposed on Germany compare to the war debt the British had to pay after world war 2.golfaddick said:
Yes I meant the Big 3. Germany were given no say in any of the reparations & basically forced to sign it at the meeting at Versailles. Hitler fed off this & what the German public saw as being very harshly treated by the rest of the world. This is just my take on the little knowledge I have mind.AddicksAddict said:
I'll agree you're no historian, golfie. The Axis didn't come into being until WW2. I assume you mean the decisions of the Triple Entente (UK, France, Russia) at the end of WW1. I'd argue the reparations etc. demanded by France in particular were somewhat over the top but most of the financial stuff dropped by the wayside and then Hitler ignored the rest, like the demilitarised Rhineland and not having warships over 10,000 tons.golfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Of course, you may have meant the decisions of Germany, Italy and Japan between 1919 and 1939, which certainly did lead to WW2.
I know we British paid in full with tbevlast payment made in 2009.
How much did the Germans pay and when did they stop paying?
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269 billion marks were paid off in 2010 by the Germans - that was from the First World War thoughsmudge7946 said:
How do the reparations imposed on Germany compare to the war debt the British had to pay after world war 2.golfaddick said:
Yes I meant the Big 3. Germany were given no say in any of the reparations & basically forced to sign it at the meeting at Versailles. Hitler fed off this & what the German public saw as being very harshly treated by the rest of the world. This is just my take on the little knowledge I have mind.AddicksAddict said:
I'll agree you're no historian, golfie. The Axis didn't come into being until WW2. I assume you mean the decisions of the Triple Entente (UK, France, Russia) at the end of WW1. I'd argue the reparations etc. demanded by France in particular were somewhat over the top but most of the financial stuff dropped by the wayside and then Hitler ignored the rest, like the demilitarised Rhineland and not having warships over 10,000 tons.golfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Of course, you may have meant the decisions of Germany, Italy and Japan between 1919 and 1939, which certainly did lead to WW2.
I know we British paid in full with tbevlast payment made in 2009.
How much did the Germans pay and when did they stop paying?0 -
I thought we won it last week, and Mark Francois lead the battalions to the final victory4
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The reparations forced on Germany in 1919 were, if anything, less harsh than those forced on Russia by Germany in 1917.golfaddick said:
Yes I meant the Big 3. Germany were given no say in any of the reparations & basically forced to sign it at the meeting at Versailles. Hitler fed off this & what the German public saw as being very harshly treated by the rest of the world. This is just my take on the little knowledge I have mind.AddicksAddict said:
I'll agree you're no historian, golfie. The Axis didn't come into being until WW2. I assume you mean the decisions of the Triple Entente (UK, France, Russia) at the end of WW1. I'd argue the reparations etc. demanded by France in particular were somewhat over the top but most of the financial stuff dropped by the wayside and then Hitler ignored the rest, like the demilitarised Rhineland and not having warships over 10,000 tons.golfaddick said:I'm no historian but WW2 stemed from the axis powers decisions after WW1. I saw a TV programme recently that said the French wanted even more draconian measures but the USA werent happy. The treaty of Versailles was the start of it all.
Of course, you may have meant the decisions of Germany, Italy and Japan between 1919 and 1939, which certainly did lead to WW2.
Did Hitler exploit the Versailles treaty to whip up a victim mentality and racism? Certainly. Thankfully, we don't see that in European politics nowadays.
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Versailles is overstated as a cause of Hitler/WW2.
The Nazis got 2.6% in 1928 and 18% in 1930. It was unemployment, not Versailles that changed everything.0 -
unemployment & Nazi propaganda .. probably the first time a nationwide and well constructed propaganda campaign, especially movies, newspapers and the radio, allied to anti-Jewish hatred, really stirred up the German public reeling from the 1929 crash and the 'humiliation' still latent from the outcome of WW1Uboat said:Versailles is overstated as a cause of Hitler/WW2.
The Nazis got 2.6% in 1928 and 18% in 1930. It was unemployment, not Versailles that changed everything.
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Hard to measure the effectiveness of propaganda, but it certainly was ahead of it's time in terms on reach and sophistication.Lincsaddick said:
unemployment & Nazi propaganda .. probably the first time a nationwide and well constructed propaganda campaign, especially movies, newspapers and the radio, allied to anti-Jewish hatred, really stirred up the German public reeling from the 1929 crash and the 'humiliation' still latent from the outcome of WW1Uboat said:Versailles is overstated as a cause of Hitler/WW2.
The Nazis got 2.6% in 1928 and 18% in 1930. It was unemployment, not Versailles that changed everything.
Like Versailles, I think anti-semitism was not a major factor and has been given significance because of what happened later. Just before Hitler came to power only 12% of Nazi supporters cited anti-Semitism as a reason for supporting the Nazis, compared to 60% who cited fear of Marxism.0 -
Hitler hated Jews, but Mussolini didn't and actually had Jewish supporters. Of course when he went to bed with Hitler, he was happy enough to cut them adrift. Anti-semitism wasn't a fascist requirement. It helps to give ignorant people real targets to blame, but nobody can be under any illusions that Hitler's hatred was genuine. Hitler had views about the purity and superiority of the Aryan race - so other races were inferior, some more inferior than others. Mussolini's fascism was around converting, by force, uncivilised people to be civilised like the Italians, much like the Romans did by creating British and French Romans etc...1
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A lot of Hitlers hatred of the Jews was centred around the art world.
As we know, he was an aspiring artist but was rejected twice by The Vienna Academy of Fine Arts and thereafter spent a great deal of time whilst in Vienna trying to establish himself but was rejected time and again by art dealers and agents who were almost exclusively Jewish.
Their collective rejection and disinterest in him undoubtedly fuelled his hatred on a very personal level, something which he never forgot and was never going to forgive them for............and how!
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