Independence Referendum announced for 1 October
BREAKING: Leader of Spain's Catalonia announces independence referendum for October 1 - @AFP
— Conflict News (@Conflicts) June 9, 2017
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Chortle0
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yuck yuck!0
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Most Catalans don't want it anyway, especially those in the cities. Also very impractical to do: who votes - people living in the Catalan region, irrespective of what part of Spain they are from? Catalans living in other parts of Spain?2
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Same could be said for Scottish referendum over here.CharltonMadrid said:Most Catalans don't want it anyway, especially those in the cities. Also very impractical to do: who votes - people living in the Catalan region, irrespective of what part of Spain they are from? Catalans living in other parts of Spain?
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From what I read most Catalonians want the vote even though they don't support independence. It kills the issue for a generation.0
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Could Scots not living in Scotland vote in their referendum? I can't remember.0
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They couldn't.CharltonMadrid said:Could Scots not living in Scotland vote in their referendum? I can't remember.
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It's a very interesting subject and I am fully aware I follow it through the prism of living in Madrid and through the mainstream Spanish media. Two areas that put a lot of people off the idea of Catalan independence:
1. The nationalist parties and politicians are the worst for corruption. Some of the swindles reported are staggering.
2. The Catalan language is used very politically and to make a point. Considering that many other Spaniards live in Catalan cities, cases of doctors refusing to treat people unless they talk in Catalan has gone down very badly.1 -
What if they live in Catalonia?Friend Or Defoe said:
They couldn't.CharltonMadrid said:Could Scots not living in Scotland vote in their referendum? I can't remember.
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CharltonMadrid: Was this not seen as something that would eventually happen? I remember when I was traveling in Spain around a decade ago it was being floated even then. And from the very little I've read it seems tension between the Catalan "Government" and the Spanish Government are quite high.
It's okay, referendums called seemingly at random usually have a perfectly stabilizing outcome. Oh...0 - Sponsored links:
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Well they've been pushing and pushing for this here. The Spanish government have stated categorically this ain't gonna happen (are you going to send the troops in here @CharltonMadrid ?)
To be honest, the Madrid government could have headed this off ay the pass by being more open to dialogue - telling Spaniards (and Catalans ) not to do something oftrn makes them do it anyway.
As for the corruption CharltonMadrid, you what? The Pujol family salted away millions, in fact the son spent his pre trial liberty money laundering rather than preparing a defence, all of which came up at his trial. But that's just becaause they were really good at embezzling. The whole of Spanish politics is filled with corruption trials, and politicians desperately hanging on to power while being investigated. Both Madrid and Valencia have had big names removed from their town halls for corruption, very recently, as have Murcia and Andalucia, while the Partido Popular were recently subjected to a half assed vote of no confidence by Podemos (the 'We Can' party) as their politicians seem to spend more time lining their pockets than debating. Precious few Populares in Catalunya.2 -
It's their border with Ireland that worries me.3
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Nope, Scots not in Scotland couldn't vote, whilst non-Scots in Scotland could vote. It caused a lot of anger within the 3 million Scots living in EnglandCharltonMadrid said:Could Scots not living in Scotland vote in their referendum? I can't remember.
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Until Spain puts some money into its justice system this will continue to happen. It takes an age to get anything done and as justice delayed is justice denied most people don't bother.ken_shabby said:Well they've been pushing and pushing for this here. The Spanish government have stated categorically this ain't gonna happen (are you going to send the troops in here @CharltonMadrid ?)
To be honest, the Madrid government could have headed this off ay the pass by being more open to dialogue - telling Spaniards (and Catalans ) not to do something oftrn makes them do it anyway.
As for the corruption CharltonMadrid, you what? The Pujol family salted away millions, in fact the son spent his pre trial liberty money laundering rather than preparing a defence, all of which came up at his trial. But that's just becaause they were really good at embezzling. The whole of Spanish politics is filled with corruption trials, and politicians desperately hanging on to power while being investigated. Both Madrid and Valencia have had big names removed from their town halls for corruption, very recently, as have Murcia and Andalucia, while the Partido Popular were recently subjected to a half assed vote of no confidence by Podemos (the 'We Can' party) as their politicians seem to spend more time lining their pockets than debating. Precious few Populares in Catalunya.0 -
If they want independence from England, isn't it a bit off to live in England? If they wanted to leave that much, perhaps they should have fecked off north of the border beforehand...randy andy said:
Nope, Scots not in Scotland couldn't vote, whilst non-Scots in Scotland could vote. It caused a lot of anger within the 3 million Scots living in EnglandCharltonMadrid said:Could Scots not living in Scotland vote in their referendum? I can't remember.
I can't see this leading to an independent Catalonia, at least not in the short term0 -
I did not realise non scots up the could vote. Was that all non scots or just British passport holders ?randy andy said:
Nope, Scots not in Scotland couldn't vote, whilst non-Scots in Scotland could vote. It caused a lot of anger within the 3 million Scots living in EnglandCharltonMadrid said:Could Scots not living in Scotland vote in their referendum? I can't remember.
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Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)0
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So one party tried rigging their refferendum and lost, the other party complacently took no steps to rig their refferendum and lost - I love Britain !randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
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Yep, though it least it shows the relative levels of competence. The SNP were rightly not confident, so framed the referendum to best get the result they wanted. Cameron was massively over-confident, and ignored simple steps to ensure he got the result he wanted.se9addick said:
So one party tried rigging their refferendum and lost, the other party complacently took no steps to rig their refferendum and lost - I love Britain !randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
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How did the SNP know how anyone outside Scotland would vote, Sean Connery would have voted out...randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
? Also - what a logistical nightmare, every single one of those 3 millions Scots having to prove their right to vote (and on what criteria?) - plus those outside the rest of the UK; how could you allow Scots in the UK a vote without allowing those that live elsewhere the same right?
Brits living in the EU were allowed to vote in the referendum, as long as they fitted the criteria for voting in a normal election, Andy.0 - Sponsored links:
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Well they didn't know how they would vote, but the presumption was that Scots leaving in the UK outside of Scotland would be more likely to vote for Scotland to remain in the UK.Algarveaddick said:
How did the SNP know how anyone outside Scotland would vote, Sean Connery would have voted out...randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
? Also - what a logistical nightmare, every single one of those 3 millions Scots having to prove their right to vote (and on what criteria?) - plus those outside the rest of the UK; how could you allow Scots in the UK a vote without allowing those that live elsewhere the same right?
Brits living in the EU were allowed to vote in the referendum, as long as they fitted the criteria for voting in a normal election, Andy.
I'd need to do more research, but the numbers mentioned at the time was around 1.5 million Brits living in the EU who couldn't vote for one reason or another and will be significantly impacted by Brexit. Again, the presumption is the majority of those would have voted remain, which would have swung the vote back the other way.0 -
I tend to agree with both your presumptions Andy, but I am sure you would agree about the difficulty of administering every emigrant Scot's right to vote? As for my fellow immigrants? Well I know of some who have been a bit reticent about how they voted (or if they did) and I certainly know several holiday home owners with aspirations to either move out here or spend a lot more time here after retirement who voted to (potentially) make their own lives more difficult. There were certainly a number of people in Spain who live there who voted out...randy andy said:
Well they didn't know how they would vote, but the presumption was that Scots leaving in the UK outside of Scotland would be more likely to vote for Scotland to remain in the UK.Algarveaddick said:
How did the SNP know how anyone outside Scotland would vote, Sean Connery would have voted out...randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
? Also - what a logistical nightmare, every single one of those 3 millions Scots having to prove their right to vote (and on what criteria?) - plus those outside the rest of the UK; how could you allow Scots in the UK a vote without allowing those that live elsewhere the same right?
Brits living in the EU were allowed to vote in the referendum, as long as they fitted the criteria for voting in a normal election, Andy.
I'd need to do more research, but the numbers mentioned at the time was around 1.5 million Brits living in the EU who couldn't vote for one reason or another and will be significantly impacted by Brexit. Again, the presumption is the majority of those would have voted remain, which would have swung the vote back the other way.1 -
Would independence for Catalonia mean that it would need to apply for EU membership ? Based upon what was being said about the same issue should Scotland have voted for independence i imagine it would.
As Catalonia already uses the euro would that complicate matters should eu membership not be a quick process ?
A yes vote would be a complication the eu could do without during the 15 year Brexit negotiations.0 -
Yes, it is why Spain would always veto a move that would get Scotland automatically into the EU. Rather like the way the UK could have vetoed the accession of Turkey to the EU.ShootersHillGuru said:Would independence for Catalonia mean that it would need to apply for EU membership ? Based upon what was being said about the same issue should Scotland have voted for independence i imagine it would.
As Catalonia already uses the euro would that complicate matters should eu membership not be a quick process ?
A yes vote would be a complication the EU could do without during the 15 year Brexit negotiations.
I like Salmond and Sturgeon and think the Scottish people deserve to decide how their country is run but the claim that they would not have to start a new application was disingenuous.0 -
I think the administration of Scots living in the UK outside of Scotland would be fairly simple, everybody's place of birth is know, so it'd just be a case of resident in Scotland or born in Scotland. Though it's the later that would cause difficulties, of a purely political nature. Would having been born in Scotland be enough, or would it be a certain number of years residency, or having completed education,etc.Algarveaddick said:
I tend to agree with both your presumptions Andy, but I am sure you would agree about the difficulty of administering every emigrant Scot's right to vote? As for my fellow immigrants? Well I know of some who have been a bit reticent about how they voted (or if they did) and I certainly know several holiday home owners with aspirations to either move out here or spend a lot more time here after retirement who voted to (potentially) make their own lives more difficult. There were certainly a number of people in Spain who live there who voted out...randy andy said:
Well they didn't know how they would vote, but the presumption was that Scots leaving in the UK outside of Scotland would be more likely to vote for Scotland to remain in the UK.Algarveaddick said:
How did the SNP know how anyone outside Scotland would vote, Sean Connery would have voted out...randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
? Also - what a logistical nightmare, every single one of those 3 millions Scots having to prove their right to vote (and on what criteria?) - plus those outside the rest of the UK; how could you allow Scots in the UK a vote without allowing those that live elsewhere the same right?
Brits living in the EU were allowed to vote in the referendum, as long as they fitted the criteria for voting in a normal election, Andy.
I'd need to do more research, but the numbers mentioned at the time was around 1.5 million Brits living in the EU who couldn't vote for one reason or another and will be significantly impacted by Brexit. Again, the presumption is the majority of those would have voted remain, which would have swung the vote back the other way.0 -
We are failing to remember that the French have skin in this game as well. Catalonia stretches into France with the city of Perpignan and much of the territory that is in the department of Pyrenees Orientale classifying itself as Catalan (and speaking the language). The Catalan flag is often flown rather than the tricolour and the French will definitely not be happy if the Spanish allow Catalonia independence.
The Spanish economy (however corrupt) would also suffer since Catalonia is one of the most wealthy parts of Spain which is why I don't foresee this being allowed to happen... but Trump won in the US, Brexit happened and the bewildered Tory party then went out and staked the house on red in a bizarre game of election roulette.0 -
You have kind of talked your way round to my way of thinking in the last sentence mate - LOL. That's just what I was getting at, where would you draw the line? I am not sure about the place of birth always being known either, especially for those born pre-war, records were destroyed and lost from time to time. Sure you may well know that you were born at 37 Long Lane, Kilmarnock, but it might be harder proving it? Even if the records were there, checking up on 3 million people is a massive task!randy andy said:
I think the administration of Scots living in the UK outside of Scotland would be fairly simple, everybody's place of birth is know, so it'd just be a case of resident in Scotland or born in Scotland. Though it's the later that would cause difficulties, of a purely political nature. Would having been born in Scotland be enough, or would it be a certain number of years residency, or having completed education,etc.Algarveaddick said:
I tend to agree with both your presumptions Andy, but I am sure you would agree about the difficulty of administering every emigrant Scot's right to vote? As for my fellow immigrants? Well I know of some who have been a bit reticent about how they voted (or if they did) and I certainly know several holiday home owners with aspirations to either move out here or spend a lot more time here after retirement who voted to (potentially) make their own lives more difficult. There were certainly a number of people in Spain who live there who voted out...randy andy said:
Well they didn't know how they would vote, but the presumption was that Scots leaving in the UK outside of Scotland would be more likely to vote for Scotland to remain in the UK.Algarveaddick said:
How did the SNP know how anyone outside Scotland would vote, Sean Connery would have voted out...randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
? Also - what a logistical nightmare, every single one of those 3 millions Scots having to prove their right to vote (and on what criteria?) - plus those outside the rest of the UK; how could you allow Scots in the UK a vote without allowing those that live elsewhere the same right?
Brits living in the EU were allowed to vote in the referendum, as long as they fitted the criteria for voting in a normal election, Andy.
I'd need to do more research, but the numbers mentioned at the time was around 1.5 million Brits living in the EU who couldn't vote for one reason or another and will be significantly impacted by Brexit. Again, the presumption is the majority of those would have voted remain, which would have swung the vote back the other way.0 -
Yeah but we have a penchant for fruitless and expensive political tasks in the UK at the moment!Algarveaddick said:
You have kind of talked your way round to my way of thinking in the last sentence mate - LOL. That's just what I was getting at, where would you draw the line? I am not sure about the place of birth always being known either, especially for those born pre-war, records were destroyed and lost from time to time. Sure you may well know that you were born at 37 Long Lane, Kilmarnock, but it might be harder proving it? Even if the records were there, checking up on 3 million people is a massive task!randy andy said:
I think the administration of Scots living in the UK outside of Scotland would be fairly simple, everybody's place of birth is know, so it'd just be a case of resident in Scotland or born in Scotland. Though it's the later that would cause difficulties, of a purely political nature. Would having been born in Scotland be enough, or would it be a certain number of years residency, or having completed education,etc.Algarveaddick said:
I tend to agree with both your presumptions Andy, but I am sure you would agree about the difficulty of administering every emigrant Scot's right to vote? As for my fellow immigrants? Well I know of some who have been a bit reticent about how they voted (or if they did) and I certainly know several holiday home owners with aspirations to either move out here or spend a lot more time here after retirement who voted to (potentially) make their own lives more difficult. There were certainly a number of people in Spain who live there who voted out...randy andy said:
Well they didn't know how they would vote, but the presumption was that Scots leaving in the UK outside of Scotland would be more likely to vote for Scotland to remain in the UK.Algarveaddick said:
How did the SNP know how anyone outside Scotland would vote, Sean Connery would have voted out...randy andy said:Basically the SNP tried to rig it as much as possible to get a Yes vote. So they banned Scost living elsewhere in the UK from voting and lowered the voting age to 16. It shows the level of confidence Cameron and co. had in a remain vote that they didn't try similar tricks (i.e. lowering the voting age and allowing Brits living in the EU to vote)
? Also - what a logistical nightmare, every single one of those 3 millions Scots having to prove their right to vote (and on what criteria?) - plus those outside the rest of the UK; how could you allow Scots in the UK a vote without allowing those that live elsewhere the same right?
Brits living in the EU were allowed to vote in the referendum, as long as they fitted the criteria for voting in a normal election, Andy.
I'd need to do more research, but the numbers mentioned at the time was around 1.5 million Brits living in the EU who couldn't vote for one reason or another and will be significantly impacted by Brexit. Again, the presumption is the majority of those would have voted remain, which would have swung the vote back the other way.2
