Makes me laugh. Just brought in our third manager in four months and people slate someones loyalty.
Peeters first move was to bring in Buyans. We dont properly know how his preferred formation line up will be.
We've no idea as fans whether Poyet would have been suited to the style he wants to play or not. There's a good chance he would have gone back to being second fiddle to Buyans
A serious Belgian journalist and Standard fan has made it clear that Buyans is a classic box-to-box midfielder, well suited to the high tempo English game. As such he is not a like-for- like Poyet replacement. To me he sounds like an obvious replacement for Jacko, and that makes sense because much as I love Jacko I don't think he's able to deliver a full season in that role now.
I am uneasy about the some of the extreme reaction to Poyet, a 19 year old kid, however I have seen or heard not a shred of evidence that the club didn't do all reasonably possible to keep him.
I asked myself why do I feel so sour towards Poyet, and the answer is, his father. When I saw the classless way he exited Brighton I just knew we could expect something similar from his son.
Did I miss something? I thought Brighton fired Gus?
Makes me laugh. Just brought in our third manager in four months and people slate someones loyalty.
Peeters first move was to bring in Buyans. We dont properly know how his preferred formation line up will be.
We've no idea as fans whether Poyet would have been suited to the style he wants to play or not. There's a good chance he would have gone back to being second fiddle to Buyans
A serious Belgian journalist and Standard fan has made it clear that Buyans is a classic box-to-box midfielder, well suited to the high tempo English game. As such he is not a like-for- like Poyet replacement. To me he sounds like an obvious replacement for Jacko, and that makes sense because much as I love Jacko I don't think he's able to deliver a full season in that role now.
I am uneasy about the some of the extreme reaction to Poyet, a 19 year old kid, however I have seen or heard not a shred of evidence that the club didn't do all reasonably possible to keep him.
I asked myself why do I feel so sour towards Poyet, and the answer is, his father. When I saw the classless way he exited Brighton I just knew we could expect something similar from his son.
If Buyens is a box-to-box midfielder then a trio of Cousins holding, Buyens providing the energy and Moussa playmaking sounds very good to me. Still need cover for all those roles though so another defensive midfielder is a must
It keeps being repeated that Jenkinson signed a contract (in 2011). I don't think he did. My understanding is that he refused to sign one and that the reason we got a good deal is that our then chief executive acquired evidence about Arsenal's conduct that was effective leverage, but if others know better fair enough.
I'm pretty certain about Jenkinson being out of contract. It always seemed strange that we received as much as we did and recently the story emerged that he demanded decent comp to us or he would sign a contract with us, which did not seem realistic. Your tale sounds more likely.
It keeps being repeated that Jenkinson signed a contract (in 2011). I don't think he did. My understanding is that he refused to sign one and that the reason we got a good deal is that our then chief executive acquired evidence about Arsenal's conduct that was effective leverage, but if others know better fair enough.
Perhaps history repeats itself? Pure speculation on my part but I wouldn't put it beyond West Ham to induce Poyet not to accept any CAFC contract offer over the last 12 months. For a CAFC contract doesn't just increase the fee but it gives CAFC control over timing and end destination of any transfer. One has to admit that it is strange that CAFC have managed to secure the services of every youth talent coming out of the academy these last couple of years.
The outcome of negotiations or tribunal will be interesting.
With due respect to the players involved, that is obviously in part a function of how they are perceived by other clubs. It's relatively unusual not to secure academy players on their first pro contract - Defoe being the most prominent exception - if the club wants them.
It's also much easier to sign young players while they have some time to go on their existing contract, as you are offering them an immediate pay rise, often from a very low base. Unless there is competition, it's hardly a triumph to agree to pay an existing employee more, which isn't to say that it's not worth doing.
We have in fact lost a number of youngsters to other clubs in recent years, as documented in the accounts and elsewhere. Time will tell how they compare with the current crop. One example is Kasey Palmer.
Good point, Airman. Look at the raw young striker from Folkestone who had trials will us, was on fire, yet we declined and he has gone to Hull. I have suffered watching Sordell, Obika - again!- Harriott and Pigott, et al ,and none of them have the brains or technique to run back and find the ball for themselves, let alone actually score.
It keeps being repeated that Jenkinson signed a contract (in 2011). I don't think he did. My understanding is that he refused to sign one and that the reason we got a good deal is that our then chief executive acquired evidence about Arsenal's conduct that was effective leverage, but if others know better fair enough.
Perhaps history repeats itself? Pure speculation on my part but I wouldn't put it beyond West Ham to induce Poyet not to accept any CAFC contract offer over the last 12 months. For a CAFC contract doesn't just increase the fee but it gives CAFC control over timing and end destination of any transfer. One has to admit that it is strange that CAFC have managed to secure the services of every youth talent coming out of the academy these last couple of years.
The outcome of negotiations or tribunal will be interesting.
With due respect to the players involved, that is obviously in part a function of how they are perceived by other clubs. It's relatively unusual not to secure academy players on their first pro contract - Defoe being the most prominent exception - if the club wants them.
It's also much easier to sign young players while they have some time to go on their existing contract, as you are offering them an immediate pay rise, often from a very low base. Unless there is competition, it's hardly a triumph to agree to pay an existing employee more, which isn't to say that it's not worth doing.
We have in fact lost a number of youngsters to other clubs in recent years, as documented in the accounts and elsewhere. Time will tell how they compare with the current crop. One example is Kasey Palmer.
I don't think the club actually expected him to stay, somehow. They no doubt really wanted him to, and would have offered him the best terms possible given their relative position but we can't compete with the money/prestige/ambition of the Premier League until we are back there. Given overtures had been made in early months of the year and presumably ever since and he didna't sign, I can't imagine the club were taken aback when he decided to move on (disappointed, yes, shocked, no - like many fans I suspect).
What's done is done, he's gone. We still have Cousins, we have a number of good propositions coming through - and RD is not likely to let the Next Big Thing slip away without one hell of a fight... it's pretty intrinsic to his apparent plan that we get the best value when we have to sell (which we will.)
Sad to see him go but looking at it from his eyes, he's moving to a premier league club where he'll have a realistic chance of first ten football. I don't see how that is evidence of being a money grabber rather than a talented young footballer looking to advance his career. Contracts are used by clubs and players to get what they want, whether that is club's using them to release players they no longer want or players taking the opportunity to move to another club. The situation wouldn't have happened if the previous board had sorted out a longer contract. Nothing we can do about it so let's move on. Good luck Diego, make us proud.
Makes me laugh. Just brought in our third manager in four months and people slate someones loyalty.
Peeters first move was to bring in Buyans. We dont properly know how his preferred formation line up will be.
We've no idea as fans whether Poyet would have been suited to the style he wants to play or not. There's a good chance he would have gone back to being second fiddle to Buyans
Mate you seem so intent on finding any excuse for what he's done the boy should have pen a 2 year deal with an agreed release fee. Why people think it's fine for him to be at the club being look after for so many years and then walk for nothing is beyond me regardless of circumstance
West Ham are where we were 10 years ago. Poyet was exactly the kind of player we would have signed. We would have seen that a a perfect fit for club and player. People need to remove their rosé-tinted spectacles!
HE GOT TAPPED UP!!!!!! by __________ (complete with your preference).
IF he had any common decency and appreciation for anything that Charlton Athletic Football Club have done for him he would of ensured that the club receive a fee for selling his services by signing some form of contract with all the clauses his little heart desired so he could extricate himself when he smelt the money. Instead the classless prick and his close advisers will leave us hanging and reliant on a system of compensation that is unfair and heavily biased towards the very clubs that benefit from that rotten system. Life and football unfair? what a shocker! From a purely football point of view, never seen him play, now never will in the flesh. He was a stand out for 20 games in a desperately poor season stuck in the nether regions of England's Division Two, move on.
Makes me laugh. Just brought in our third manager in four months and people slate someones loyalty.
Peeters first move was to bring in Buyans. We dont properly know how his preferred formation line up will be.
We've no idea as fans whether Poyet would have been suited to the style he wants to play or not. There's a good chance he would have gone back to being second fiddle to Buyans
A serious Belgian journalist and Standard fan has made it clear that Buyans is a classic box-to-box midfielder, well suited to the high tempo English game. As such he is not a like-for- like Poyet replacement. To me he sounds like an obvious replacement for Jacko, and that makes sense because much as I love Jacko I don't think he's able to deliver a full season in that role now.
I am uneasy about the some of the extreme reaction to Poyet, a 19 year old kid, however I have seen or heard not a shred of evidence that the club didn't do all reasonably possible to keep him.
I asked myself why do I feel so sour towards Poyet, and the answer is, his father. When I saw the classless way he exited Brighton I just knew we could expect something similar from his son.
Did I miss something? I thought Brighton fired Gus?
It sticks in the craw losing him to West Ham, although it could have been very much worse.
Subject to Big Sam's proclivity for playing the long ball game, West Ham is overall, a pretty good choice for Diego and, by extension, for us:
- we'll get some compensation, rather than the pittance we'd have received if he went abroad
- he'll become a regular in their side and we should receive a decent wedge in respect of Premier League appearances over the next two or three years
- if he continues to develop as I believe he will, we should pick up a chunky sell-on fee in a couple of years when West Ham sell him on to a Champions League team. I don't think they'll be able to hold on to him once Diego, Gus and his agent decide that the Happy Hammers have served their purpose as a stepping stone to the top (for that is all they are). I think that will make his loss a little easier, particularly as the increased capacity of the Olympic Stadium poses a threat to us going forward. I really do hope that we dig in for a 25% sell-on clause, as that's where the real money will come from. Roland's financial position at least means that we can play hardball, if necessary.
Rejection always hurts but, as others have said, what's done is done and we will be better off focusing on the new players coming in and what should be an interesting (certainly unpredictable) season.
Buyens was bought in because Diego was going and always was
It may not suit many but Dp was always only ever going to use cafc if it was still in championship as a starting point of his career
Cafc is not brand enough for DP if we had gone up.then dp would've stayed under any mgr cafc were not going up last season
I am sure you are right about everything else in this post, mate, but are you convinced that Buyens was bought as a like for like replacement for Poyet? That is not what a proper Belgian journalist believes. Sounds a different player, more in the Jacko mould, as I said above.
Needed to show some loyalty in my opinion as an effort to ensure the club who nurtured him made some money from him would have not harmed his onward career in any way. In fact, he might have been loaned back and saved himself a few years on Chelsea or Man. City's subs bench before being sold to Swansea. I think he will go on to be a good player, not a great one. Anyway, if he does play for West Ham he won't get a kick very often but will certainly get a sore neck.
Buyens was bought in because Diego was going and always was
It may not suit many but Dp was always only ever going to use cafc if it was still in championship as a starting point of his career
Cafc is not brand enough for DP if we had gone up.then dp would've stayed under any mgr cafc were not going up last season
I am sure you are right about everything else in this post, mate, but are you convinced that Buyens was bought as a like for like replacement for Poyet? That is not what a proper Belgian journalist believes. Sounds a different player, more in the Jacko mould, as I said above.
Jordan Cousins is the like for like replacement reverting to the position he filled prior to Stephens going
West Ham are where we were 10 years ago. Poyet was exactly the kind of player we would have signed. We would have seen that a a perfect fit for club and player. People need to remove their rosé-tinted spectacles
Buyens was bought in because Diego was going and always was
It may not suit many but Dp was always only ever going to use cafc if it was still in championship as a starting point of his career
Cafc is not brand enough for DP if we had gone up.then dp would've stayed under any mgr cafc were not going up last season
I am sure you are right about everything else in this post, mate, but are you convinced that Buyens was bought as a like for like replacement for Poyet? That is not what a proper Belgian journalist believes. Sounds a different player, more in the Jacko mould, as I said above.
Jordan Cousins is the like for like replacement reverting to the position he filled prior to Stephens going
Some of you diminish football and its professional skills. Let me give you an example. Chris Powell, whom you revere to this saintly elevation - a position he deliberately does not want, incidentally - played for Crystal Palace in his youth. Now do you hate him? And Bob Peeters played for Millwall. Hate him, too?
Do you really think that professional players and managers lose a game because of your sentimentality, or your prejudice, or any lack of effort? Every single player bursts a lung for his own integrity and pride.
When Danny Green curved those corners directly out of play, he wasn't trying to annoy the purse-lipped, pebble-dashed accountants from Bexleyheath. He tried his best - and failed us. As fans, it is our responsibility and our right to demand the very best.
Callum Harriott has just been sent a thirty-yard fizzing ball, tight on the wing. During the trajectory, four Middlesbrough players converge on his ear - I have watched this. Harriott actually controls the ball, but needs help - yet his team-mates are thirty yards away, staring at him.
We need quickness. And strength. We need rehearsed intelligence around the box. As paying spectators, we demand it. What exactly goes on at Sparrows Lane?
Buyens was bought in because Diego was going and always was
It may not suit many but Dp was always only ever going to use cafc if it was still in championship as a starting point of his career
Cafc is not brand enough for DP if we had gone up.then dp would've stayed under any mgr cafc were not going up last season
I am sure you are right about everything else in this post, mate, but are you convinced that Buyens was bought as a like for like replacement for Poyet? That is not what a proper Belgian journalist believes. Sounds a different player, more in the Jacko mould, as I said above.
Jordan Cousins is the like for like replacement reverting to the position he filled prior to Stephens going
Yes, that is also what I have supposed. In that sense Buyens could have been a pre-planned replacement. To which i would say, sensible move, since I have never expected Poyet to stay.
I really do hope that we dig in for a 25% sell-on clause, as that's where the real money will come from. Roland's financial position at least means that we can play hardball, if necessary.
Blucher - what leads you to believe there is any room to negotiate a sell-on clause ? I thought the whole compensation package was based on the EPPL rate of £150k per 10 appearances. Surely, Bournemouth only got the Lallana percentage because his move to Southampton pre-dated EPPL ? Or am I missing something ?
@Pico - if we can't do a satisfactory deal with West Ham, the compensation will be determined by the Professional Football Compensation Committee, who would take into account factors such as the costs of training and development, the player's age and playing record, the length of time he was registered with his former club, the terms offered by both clubs, the status of the two clubs and the interest shown by other clubs in acquiring the registration of the player. Here's a link to the Regulations, which appear to be current as at 4 July 2014. See, in particular, Regulation 3 - http://www.football-league.co.uk/regulations/20130704/appendix-4_2293633_2128219
West Ham sold a young winger, Robert Hall, to Bolton last Summer (he had played 4 times for West Ham, including twice in the League Cup, and went on to play 23 times for Bolton last season, scoring one goal). The initial fee awarded by the Tribunal in August 2013 was £450,000 plus the following: £2,500 per appearance for his first 100 games for Bolton in the Championship (or £10,000 per appearance for Bolton in the Premier League); £250,000 if Bolton are promoted within three seasons; and 20% of any profit on a future sale. http://www.footballleague.co.uk/championship/news/20130830/pfcc-decision-robert-hall_2293322_3442193 Also in August 2013, the PFCC determined that Norwich should pay Villa £450,000 plus add-ons for a young goalie, Jed Steer. Someone else commented elsewhere on CL that Chelsea had to pay £3.5million substantial plus add-ons to Manchester City for Daniel Sturridge, following his transfer in 2009.
On the basis of past decisions, we could expect the Tribunal to award a lump sum payment now, further amounts based on Premier League appearances and an international cap or caps and a percentage of any sell-on profit. West Ham and Charlton will have a fair idea of the range of outcomes and that will inform any negotiations in the absence of a settlement between the clubs. Given the premium transfer value of English players, I'd like to see us really push hard this one. I'm sure, in any event, that Katrien and Roland will do a better job with Sullivan, Gold and Brady than Boris did on the conversion costs of the Olympic Stadium (not that that would be too hard)..
As Callum says, the fixed tariff of the EPPP scheme does not apply in the case of Diego Poyet, unlike (as matters stand) in the case of Joe Gomez.
Comments
Buyens was bought in because Diego was going and always was
It may not suit many but Dp was always only ever going to use cafc if it was still in championship as a starting point of his career
Cafc is not brand enough for DP if we had gone up.then dp would've stayed under any mgr cafc were not going up last season
There
What's done is done, he's gone. We still have Cousins, we have a number of good propositions coming through - and RD is not likely to let the Next Big Thing slip away without one hell of a fight... it's pretty intrinsic to his apparent plan that we get the best value when we have to sell (which we will.)
IF he had any common decency and appreciation for anything that Charlton Athletic Football Club have done for him he would of ensured that the club receive a fee for selling his services by signing some form of contract with all the clauses his little heart desired so he could extricate himself when he smelt the money. Instead the classless prick and his close advisers will leave us hanging and reliant on a system of compensation that is unfair and heavily biased towards the very clubs that benefit from that rotten system. Life and football unfair? what a shocker! From a purely football point of view, never seen him play, now never will in the flesh. He was a stand out for 20 games in a desperately poor season stuck in the nether regions of England's Division Two, move on.
Subject to Big Sam's proclivity for playing the long ball game, West Ham is overall, a pretty good choice for Diego and, by extension, for us:
- we'll get some compensation, rather than the pittance we'd have received if he went abroad
- he'll become a regular in their side and we should receive a decent wedge in respect of Premier League appearances over the next two or three years
- if he continues to develop as I believe he will, we should pick up a chunky sell-on fee in a couple of years when West Ham sell him on to a Champions League team. I don't think they'll be able to hold on to him once Diego, Gus and his agent decide that the Happy Hammers have served their purpose as a stepping stone to the top (for that is all they are). I think that will make his loss a little easier, particularly as the increased capacity of the Olympic Stadium poses a threat to us going forward. I really do hope that we dig in for a 25% sell-on clause, as that's where the real money will come from. Roland's financial position at least means that we can play hardball, if necessary.
Rejection always hurts but, as others have said, what's done is done and we will be better off focusing on the new players coming in and what should be an interesting (certainly unpredictable) season.
Do you really think that professional players and managers lose a game because of your sentimentality, or your prejudice, or any lack of effort? Every single player bursts a lung for his own integrity and pride.
When Danny Green curved those corners directly out of play, he wasn't trying to annoy the purse-lipped, pebble-dashed accountants from Bexleyheath. He tried his best - and failed us. As fans, it is our responsibility and our right to demand the very best.
Callum Harriott has just been sent a thirty-yard fizzing ball, tight on the wing. During the trajectory, four Middlesbrough players converge on his ear - I have watched this. Harriott actually controls the ball, but needs help - yet his team-mates are thirty yards away, staring at him.
We need quickness. And strength. We need rehearsed intelligence around the box. As paying spectators, we demand it. What exactly goes on at Sparrows Lane?
Clearly he thinks he is too good for us and he probably is
Players come and go, move on
Loyalty, or not loyalty, is a two way thing.
Shows how much they rate Poyet currently.
As Diego was already on pro terms, EPPP compensation ruling does not come into this equation like it has done previously eg Kasey Palmer.
If Diego was over 24 or we had not offered him a better contract in an attempt to keep him, we would not be entitled to any compensation.
Both of the above conditions apply to Diego however, so his new club are required to pay a yet undetermined amount of compensation for his signing.
The clubs will negotiate that amount (with clauses and add ons) in the hope of avoiding a tribunal ruling.
West Ham sold a young winger, Robert Hall, to Bolton last Summer (he had played 4 times for West Ham, including twice in the League Cup, and went on to play 23 times for Bolton last season, scoring one goal). The initial fee awarded by the Tribunal in August 2013 was £450,000 plus the following: £2,500 per appearance for his first 100 games for Bolton in the Championship (or £10,000 per appearance for Bolton in the Premier League); £250,000 if Bolton are promoted within three seasons; and 20% of any profit on a future sale. http://www.footballleague.co.uk/championship/news/20130830/pfcc-decision-robert-hall_2293322_3442193 Also in August 2013, the PFCC determined that Norwich should pay Villa £450,000 plus add-ons for a young goalie, Jed Steer. Someone else commented elsewhere on CL that Chelsea had to pay £3.5million substantial plus add-ons to Manchester City for Daniel Sturridge, following his transfer in 2009.
On the basis of past decisions, we could expect the Tribunal to award a lump sum payment now, further amounts based on Premier League appearances and an international cap or caps and a percentage of any sell-on profit. West Ham and Charlton will have a fair idea of the range of outcomes and that will inform any negotiations in the absence of a settlement between the clubs. Given the premium transfer value of English players, I'd like to see us really push hard this one. I'm sure, in any event, that Katrien and Roland will do a better job with Sullivan, Gold and Brady than Boris did on the conversion costs of the Olympic Stadium (not that that would be too hard)..
As Callum says, the fixed tariff of the EPPP scheme does not apply in the case of Diego Poyet, unlike (as matters stand) in the case of Joe Gomez.