Trust committee members tend to get to most Branch meetings - part of how the trust built so quickly - we had to mainly because Charlton Life admin kept deleting our threads on here lol
Any Trust is only as strong as the membership, its vision and its ability to deliver... the vision is based on what the members want. 250 members and 1,000 contacts got us an invite into the directors area. But it is continued growth each and every quarter which will keep us in touch as a respected partner. And once we have real numbers in the thousands then perhaps we can make a difference?
Read Trust News on Saturday - some donations have enabled us to ramp up the print run so we can reach out to more fans.
The point of the trust is to bring together Charlton fans with one independent voice - We had that once not so long ago but it fell away and then the supporters equity was wiped out overnight... people got complacent on and off the pitch but now we have another chance so let's make it happen! Next season there are some ideas about activities with the club and with other groups of fans - anyone with ideas or energy? Great if they can contribute to the next phase because the next one is always the hardest! And it will be hard to maintain momentum at this rate...
And we have different views within the Trust! I recognise Prague's points about financing and TV deals but fundamentally disagree in that I believe we should help Charlton to play the system for now as it is... rather than put energies into reforming footy as a whole - p'raps we can do both and p'raps a question or two in the forthcoming survey?
The donation that seriously_red refers to has enabled me to send out a copy to all NWKA members - postage & envelopes covered by the Trust. Hopefully the decent articles contained therein plus the general info about the Trust will mean that more fans, who are already paying a minimal sum each year to be part of a Supporter Group will realise that we are singing from the same hymn sheet, albeit with differing strengths and capabilities. But both with the future wellbeing of our Club at heart.
Can't have too much of that type of trilling IMHO..
Regarding the difference between the FF and the Trust, I'd say that , with the level of membership in all SGs falling over recent years ( no requirement to be a member to travel on coaches / ease of obtaining match tickets in our current position etc) the representatives of the various groups on said committee now represent the views of a minority of supporters...sad but true. The Trust has the opportunity to speak on behalf of far more fans with a clearly defined statement of its intent and raison d'etre. As has previously been pointed out, a Trust official now attends FF meetings so we are working together to present fans' views to the COO / Chairman and I believe that the Board is increasingly open to those views at this moment in time and with the new structure in place.
A very positive meeting was held last week with 2 more diarised for late August and November. This in itself is a step forward with dialogue between the Club and its paying customers being high on the agenda again. I don't believe that I would be breaking any confidences if I said that those of us present last Tuesday evening were told that the vision for the future of our Club will be articulated more clearly during the first part of next season.
I think some people are trying to put words in my mouth or take what I am saying out of context. It's not about whether or not I want to part with a fiver, it's just a fiver - the cost of a McDonalds. Its about what that fiver represents and I am not sure if I want to invest in the concept yet. And it's not about what other people do or as Davo seems to be implying disrespecting those who have signed up or got involved. For every new idea there are those that sign up because of the potential of an idea, those who sign up when the idea has some basis in reality and those who will not sign up until something is a proven success. There is no right or wrong in any of these - different people have a different attitude to 'risk'.
If I'm honest my main concern is that we fracture the support of the fans with some staying behind the FF and some going towards the Supporters Trust and different messages getting to different fans. Coming from a trade union background, nothing makes it is for 'those in charge' than a fractured base. By having both a fans forum and a trust, can the board at some point claim to not be able to continue with both or play one off against the other or just shut the door on both. Yes this is something that only happens in serious cases, but that's kind of what we are talking about. While everyone is friends and everyone is talking the world is good. Once there really is a crisis or something to hide how do we stop this divide and rule or selective game playing?
Fanny talks about the Fans Forum support and ability to represent members dropping in recent years can the ST protect against this in the long term?
Razil sys the FF is totally dependent on the club to have meetings, well surely the ST will be dependent on the club, they can easily refuse meetings in the future when things aren't so rosy.
As I say I am just one of those people who tends to buy when the price has soared because the technology is proven. Only time will overcome this. Try not to go down the route of Davo and isolate those of us not jumping on the band wagon immediately. Which I have to say I don't think Razil does, he always engages my negativity, which is why I am not anti the Trust as I once was, I am neutral and waiting for the time to come.
I have signed up even though like other posters I have my reservations about what the Trust is trying to achieve in the short term. I am joining out of respect for those who in good faith believe they can have a positive influence on how the club's progresses. Whether it can in the short term is debatable, and I don't see any immediate enemies at the door that need to be resisted, but it is worth a fiver just to give it a fighting chance of surviving and gaining critical mass and experience to fight on our behalf should it really become needed in years to come.
I think some people are trying to put words in my mouth or take what I am saying out of context. It's not about whether or not I want to part with a fiver, it's just a fiver - the cost of a McDonalds. Its about what that fiver represents and I am not sure if I want to invest in the concept yet. And it's not about what other people do or as Davo seems to be implying disrespecting those who have signed up or got involved.
Try not to go down the route of Davo and isolate those of us not jumping on the band wagon immediately.
Sorry mate, I really didn't mean either of these things. I was just expressing my own view which can be summarised as "jump on board and see where it goes" rather than "wait and see where exactly it is going before signing up". I think it very much an individual thing and it isn't for me or anyone else to tell you what to do. I could have been clearer about that, so apologies.
If I'm honest my main concern is that we fracture the support of the fans with some staying behind the FF and some going towards the Supporters Trust and different messages getting to different fans.
I don't see that as an issue. The Trust and the FF are not competing organisations in my view and there is no reason for them to ever be.
There is a lot of cross-over between the two individually and the Trust is now on the Forum. Many of the 6 or 7 FF reps are also members of the Trust.
If there was an active central Supporters' Club then I agree there could be a potential conflict but there isn't and there hasn't been for 5 or 6 years at least.
The Trust has membership, a different set up and a legal status which is in my opinion a strength.
The FF is more informal, is a representative (not membership) group and is able to co-opt new reps (as has happened first with the VIP rep and now the Trust) which is also a strength.
It is good for the Trust guys to have reasonable and considered challenges and to have to construct responses.
I'm glad that you have moved from anti-trust to neutral. I remember you joking that no one ever changed their mind as a result of internet form debate. Maybe you were wrong : - )
If I'm honest my main concern is that we fracture the support of the fans with some staying behind the FF and some going towards the Supporters Trust and different messages getting to different fans.
I don't see that as an issue. The Trust and the FF are not competing organisations in my view and there is no reason for them to ever be.
There is a lot of cross-over between the two individually and the Trust is now on the Forum. Many of the 6 or 7 FF reps are also members of the Trust.
If there was an active central Supporters' Club then I agree there could be a potential conflict but there isn't and there hasn't been for 5 or 6 years at least.
The Trust has membership, a different set up and a legal status which is in my opinion a strength.
The FF is more informal, is a representative (not membership) group and is able to co-opt new reps (as has happened first with the VIP rep and now the Trust) which is also a strength.
It is good for the Trust guys to have reasonable and considered challenges and to have to construct responses.
I'm glad that you have moved from anti-trust to neutral. I remember you joking that no one ever changed their mind as a result of internet form debate. Maybe you were wrong : - )
Good point Henry, you got me there! Although I am shocked you remember that was me - do you keep a little notebook of who has said what in each debate! I will remember not to say anything I can't back up several months later!
If I'm honest my main concern is that we fracture the support of the fans with some staying behind the FF and some going towards the Supporters Trust and different messages getting to different fans.
I don't see that as an issue. The Trust and the FF are not competing organisations in my view and there is no reason for them to ever be.
There is a lot of cross-over between the two individually and the Trust is now on the Forum. Many of the 6 or 7 FF reps are also members of the Trust.
If there was an active central Supporters' Club then I agree there could be a potential conflict but there isn't and there hasn't been for 5 or 6 years at least.
The Trust has membership, a different set up and a legal status which is in my opinion a strength.
The FF is more informal, is a representative (not membership) group and is able to co-opt new reps (as has happened first with the VIP rep and now the Trust) which is also a strength.
It is good for the Trust guys to have reasonable and considered challenges and to have to construct responses.
I'm glad that you have moved from anti-trust to neutral. I remember you joking that no one ever changed their mind as a result of internet form debate. Maybe you were wrong : - )
Good point Henry, you got me there! Although I am shocked you remember that was me - do you keep a little notebook of who has said what in each debate! I will remember not to say anything I can't back up several months later!
No, I just have a good memory for certain things : - )
The short term goals of the trust are to build a network, and the trust foundations, we also need to become legitimate and increase awareness of ourselves and the issues in play so we can reach those of likemind. Without a network a membership and a legitimate committee we feel this would not survive very long.This is textbook supporters direct stuff. At the same time if we can begin to establish a relationship with CAFC all the better, we can then try to influence and hopefully make a positive contribution while at the same time researching and looking at issues such finances and sustainability, and the future as well as having a kind of guardian role. This all has to be done with care and consideration though.
Our mantra is participation and the added value monetary and otherwise we believe that brings - espoused very neatly by our very own Godfather of Trust who hangs out in central Europe. Our communications, publications, website, are all geared to put out that message but also to increase participation and get the message out to people that we exist. While the ownership structure doesn't lend itself easily to aquisition of equity, we will endeavour to achieve another kind of ownership and thereby influence.
Things like fanzines and websites as well as conveying that message, also need to attract visitors, readers and contributors and increase participation in the trust and trust activities. Hence match reports and a small number of fun entertaining pieces, however the overwhelming element of the content is research/trust type articles, or supporting CAFC organisations, part of bolstering the support base for CAFC which we feel is a legitmate area for Trust work. Plus there is also a service element, all of which draws people to our site and hopefully membership. But we feel supports areas that need it.
So our model for a peace time trust, is not a passive one but very much an active one, and a channel for positive participation. If not I feel it wouldn't be worth having it - an emergency trust so to speak could be started up if needed at the time, this way maybe we avoid the need for emergencies..
We are currently still in the membership drive phase, but have started positive engagement, and hopefully we can influence in whatever way we can. The reason we are driving for members is direct advice from a number of people who tell us 1k committed members will make us be taken seriously and not just a figure plucked out of the air. Like wise the network (or casual plus committed members in the region of 3-5k) which if the worst were ever to happen would mean we had something in place to start with.
I agree there is an element of saturation on Charlton Life. I think that stems from a number of us living here and being lifers. But also the constraints on our other outlets which either have a small following until recently or are denied us altogether (club outlets) and manpower constraints on surveys and leaflets/publications. As a result we had been chasing the CL dollar/sticky. Overall I think people have been pretty patient with that by and large, its a double edged sword being the biggest and most sucessful forum by a long way means it will attract this sort of thing. The other thing we suffer is lack of time and personnel which I imagine might leave some gaps, and make some things seem unplanned or random, we are working on this. CL isn't the trust, but it is certainly the birth place of it, not because of some prevailing point of view but simply because it is the biggest most popular and well run Forum.
The early results of our labours can now be seen and hopefully people will credit this to our approach, this is only the end of the beginning however. The new management at CAFC seem to also see the value in having fan participation, but also seem to think that we have demonstrated we are a partner they can work with which is a great sign, maybe after a period we can persuade them to be even more open. Maybe it is enlightened self interest, or maybe cynical, but the end result at least at the moment is we have gone from no contact whatsoever and a vacuum to a very different situation where we are able to have contact at many levels and almost an endorsement. We will maintain our separation and independence however and our right to criticise where we feel it is due, e.g comments on policing on our website.
If I'm honest my main concern is that we fracture the support of the fans with some staying behind the FF and some going towards the Supporters Trust and different messages getting to different fans.
I don't see that as an issue. The Trust and the FF are not competing organisations in my view and there is no reason for them to ever be.
There is a lot of cross-over between the two individually and the Trust is now on the Forum. Many of the 6 or 7 FF reps are also members of the Trust.
If there was an active central Supporters' Club then I agree there could be a potential conflict but there isn't and there hasn't been for 5 or 6 years at least.
The Trust has membership, a different set up and a legal status which is in my opinion a strength.
The FF is more informal, is a representative (not membership) group and is able to co-opt new reps (as has happened first with the VIP rep and now the Trust) which is also a strength.
It is good for the Trust guys to have reasonable and considered challenges and to have to construct responses.
I'm glad that you have moved from anti-trust to neutral. I remember you joking that no one ever changed their mind as a result of internet form debate. Maybe you were wrong : - )
Good point Henry, you got me there! Although I am shocked you remember that was me - do you keep a little notebook of who has said what in each debate! I will remember not to say anything I can't back up several months later!
You DON'T want to be in Henry's little black book........
Sent my form off on Friday and was very impressed with the TNT inserted in yesterday's programme.
At the most general level, better communication with the Club is highly desirable and the more of us that join the Trust, the more credibility and standing it will have. More specifically, the Trust is important in the context of both the current (transient) ownership and the big changes that are coming with Financial Fair Play.
Comments
Any Trust is only as strong as the membership, its vision and its ability to deliver... the vision is based on what the members want. 250 members and 1,000 contacts got us an invite into the directors area. But it is continued growth each and every quarter which will keep us in touch as a respected partner. And once we have real numbers in the thousands then perhaps we can make a difference?
Read Trust News on Saturday - some donations have enabled us to ramp up the print run so we can reach out to more fans.
The point of the trust is to bring together Charlton fans with one independent voice - We had that once not so long ago but it fell away and then the supporters equity was wiped out overnight... people got complacent on and off the pitch but now we have another chance so let's make it happen! Next season there are some ideas about activities with the club and with other groups of fans - anyone with ideas or energy? Great if they can contribute to the next phase because the next one is always the hardest! And it will be hard to maintain momentum at this rate...
And we have different views within the Trust! I recognise Prague's points about financing and TV deals but fundamentally disagree in that I believe we should help Charlton to play the system for now as it is... rather than put energies into reforming footy as a whole - p'raps we can do both and p'raps a question or two in the forthcoming survey?
Can't have too much of that type of trilling IMHO..
Regarding the difference between the FF and the Trust, I'd say that , with the level of membership in all SGs falling over recent years ( no requirement to be a member to travel on coaches / ease of obtaining match tickets in our current position etc) the representatives of the various groups on said committee now represent the views of a minority of supporters...sad but true. The Trust has the opportunity to speak on behalf of far more fans with a clearly defined statement of its intent and raison d'etre. As has previously been pointed out, a Trust official now attends FF meetings so we are working together to present fans' views to the COO / Chairman and I believe that the Board is increasingly open to those views at this moment in time and with the new structure in place.
A very positive meeting was held last week with 2 more diarised for late August and November. This in itself is a step forward with dialogue between the Club and its paying customers being high on the agenda again. I don't believe that I would be breaking any confidences if I said that those of us present last Tuesday evening were told that the vision for the future of our Club will be articulated more clearly during the first part of next season.
And that must be good news for all concerned.
I didn't realise there was a meeting.
So whats all this about then, banning the smoking of cannabis at trust meetings.
Disgusted of Eastbourne.
For every new idea there are those that sign up because of the potential of an idea, those who sign up when the idea has some basis in reality and those who will not sign up until something is a proven success. There is no right or wrong in any of these - different people have a different attitude to 'risk'.
If I'm honest my main concern is that we fracture the support of the fans with some staying behind the FF and some going towards the Supporters Trust and different messages getting to different fans. Coming from a trade union background, nothing makes it is for 'those in charge' than a fractured base. By having both a fans forum and a trust, can the board at some point claim to not be able to continue with both or play one off against the other or just shut the door on both. Yes this is something that only happens in serious cases, but that's kind of what we are talking about.
While everyone is friends and everyone is talking the world is good. Once there really is a crisis or something to hide how do we stop this divide and rule or selective game playing?
Fanny talks about the Fans Forum support and ability to represent members dropping in recent years can the ST protect against this in the long term?
Razil sys the FF is totally dependent on the club to have meetings, well surely the ST will be dependent on the club, they can easily refuse meetings in the future when things aren't so rosy.
As I say I am just one of those people who tends to buy when the price has soared because the technology is proven. Only time will overcome this. Try not to go down the route of Davo and isolate those of us not jumping on the band wagon immediately. Which I have to say I don't think Razil does, he always engages my negativity, which is why I am not anti the Trust as I once was, I am neutral and waiting for the time to come.
I don't see that as an issue. The Trust and the FF are not competing organisations in my view and there is no reason for them to ever be.
There is a lot of cross-over between the two individually and the Trust is now on the Forum. Many of the 6 or 7 FF reps are also members of the Trust.
If there was an active central Supporters' Club then I agree there could be a potential conflict but there isn't and there hasn't been for 5 or 6 years at least.
The Trust has membership, a different set up and a legal status which is in my opinion a strength.
The FF is more informal, is a representative (not membership) group and is able to co-opt new reps (as has happened first with the VIP rep and now the Trust) which is also a strength.
It is good for the Trust guys to have reasonable and considered challenges and to have to construct responses.
I'm glad that you have moved from anti-trust to neutral. I remember you joking that no one ever changed their mind as a result of internet form debate. Maybe you were wrong : - )
Although I am shocked you remember that was me - do you keep a little notebook of who has said what in each debate! I will remember not to say anything I can't back up several months later!
No, I just have a good memory for certain things : - )
The short term goals of the trust are to build a network, and the trust foundations, we also need to become legitimate and increase awareness of ourselves and the issues in play so we can reach those of likemind. Without a network a membership and a legitimate committee we feel this would not survive very long.This is textbook supporters direct stuff. At the same time if we can begin to establish a relationship with CAFC all the better, we can then try to influence and hopefully make a positive contribution while at the same time researching and looking at issues such finances and sustainability, and the future as well as having a kind of guardian role. This all has to be done with care and consideration though.
Our mantra is participation and the added value monetary and otherwise we believe that brings - espoused very neatly by our very own Godfather of Trust who hangs out in central Europe. Our communications, publications, website, are all geared to put out that message but also to increase participation and get the message out to people that we exist. While the ownership structure doesn't lend itself easily to aquisition of equity, we will endeavour to achieve another kind of ownership and thereby influence.
Things like fanzines and websites as well as conveying that message, also need to attract visitors, readers and contributors and increase participation in the trust and trust activities. Hence match reports and a small number of fun entertaining pieces, however the overwhelming element of the content is research/trust type articles, or supporting CAFC organisations, part of bolstering the support base for CAFC which we feel is a legitmate area for Trust work. Plus there is also a service element, all of which draws people to our site and hopefully membership. But we feel supports areas that need it.
So our model for a peace time trust, is not a passive one but very much an active one, and a channel for positive participation. If not I feel it wouldn't be worth having it - an emergency trust so to speak could be started up if needed at the time, this way maybe we avoid the need for emergencies..
We are currently still in the membership drive phase, but have started positive engagement, and hopefully we can influence in whatever way we can. The reason we are driving for members is direct advice from a number of people who tell us 1k committed members will make us be taken seriously and not just a figure plucked out of the air. Like wise the network (or casual plus committed members in the region of 3-5k) which if the worst were ever to happen would mean we had something in place to start with.
I agree there is an element of saturation on Charlton Life. I think that stems from a number of us living here and being lifers. But also the constraints on our other outlets which either have a small following until recently or are denied us altogether (club outlets) and manpower constraints on surveys and leaflets/publications. As a result we had been chasing the CL dollar/sticky. Overall I think people have been pretty patient with that by and large, its a double edged sword being the biggest and most sucessful forum by a long way means it will attract this sort of thing. The other thing we suffer is lack of time and personnel which I imagine might leave some gaps, and make some things seem unplanned or random, we are working on this. CL isn't the trust, but it is certainly the birth place of it, not because of some prevailing point of view but simply because it is the biggest most popular and well run Forum.
The early results of our labours can now be seen and hopefully people will credit this to our approach, this is only the end of the beginning however. The new management at CAFC seem to also see the value in having fan participation, but also seem to think that we have demonstrated we are a partner they can work with which is a great sign, maybe after a period we can persuade them to be even more open. Maybe it is enlightened self interest, or maybe cynical, but the end result at least at the moment is we have gone from no contact whatsoever and a vacuum to a very different situation where we are able to have contact at many levels and almost an endorsement. We will maintain our separation and independence however and our right to criticise where we feel it is due, e.g comments on policing on our website.
R
Covers all angles for me and if that doesn't answer the majority of questions some might have, then nothing will.
Carry on carrying on !
At the most general level, better communication with the Club is highly desirable and the more of us that join the Trust, the more credibility and standing it will have. More specifically, the Trust is important in the context of both the current (transient) ownership and the big changes that are coming with Financial Fair Play.