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Morrissey / genious or twat?

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  • Songwriting in Morrisey's day:

    "Why ponder life's complexities, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seat"...The Smiths


    In the charts nowdays:

    "I'm going mad, I need you, I've been searchin' all over Facebook and I can't seem to find you, I really have to find you, baby I need you".... NDubz


    Pass me that flux capacitor
  • edited May 2010
    [cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Songwriting in Morrisey's day:

    "Why ponder life's complexities, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seat"...The Smiths


    In the charts nowdays:

    "I'm going mad, I need you, I've been searchin' all over Facebook and I can't seem to find you, I really have to find you, baby I need you".... NDubz


    Pass me that flux capacitor


    Hahaha. Nice comparison. Although 'Men At Work' weren't exactly renouned for their articulate lyric fluidity. But if you compare the number ones of 1983 (when This Charming Man was released) you have:

    Little Red Corvet, Prince.
    Billie Jean, Michael Jackson.
    Let's Dance, David Bowie.
    True, Spandau Ballet.

    Compared to last year, for instance:

    You Are Not Alone, X Factor Finalists
    Break Your Heart, Taio Cruz
    My Life Would Suck WIthout You, Kelly Clarkson
    And a buttload of Lady Gaga

    To that extent, I'll give Morrissey and The Smiths their dues. As much as I don't like them, at least it's real music.

    "He was a boy, she was a girl... Can I make it anymore obvious?"
  • edited May 2010
    [cite]Posted By: bigstemarra[/cite]This is exactly why music (or politics) shouldn't be discussed on CL.

    Already we have:

    1. Someone on here who reckons they are a better guitarist than Jonny Marr who apparently isn't any good
    2. Someone who thinks the mighty James were better than the Smiths ('sit down' was good fun wasn't it? - especially when everyone sits on the floor at the disco!)
    3. Someone who thinks that they are 'a bit like Embrace' (the worst football 'anthem' in history and erm, can't think what else they actually did)

    I'm not saying they are the best, most talented band in history (or that Morrissey isn't a total bellend), but some people have been watching too much X Factor and forgotten what the word 'talent' actually means...

    Can we go back to talking about football, please?
    I didn't say The Smiths were 'a bit like Embrace' at all. You're paraphrasing me. What I said was that they had a singer who was shit, but fitted their music perfectly. Anyone comparing The Smiths musically to Embrace would obviously be a pillock.
  • edited May 2010
    [cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Songwriting in Morrisey's day:

    "Why ponder life's complexities, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seat"...The Smiths


    In the charts nowdays:

    "I'm going mad, I need you, I've been searchin' all over Facebook and I can't seem to find you, I really have to find you, baby I need you".... NDubz


    Pass me that flux capacitor

    Blah blah rose-tinting the past blah blah ;-)

    Picking the best and worst of either era as a point of comparison is pretty stupid. I didn't realise that all trashy pop singles had uniformly deep and poetic lyrics until the 2000s.
  • edited May 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]
    Hahaha. Nice comparison. Although 'Men At Work' weren't exactly renouned for their articulate lyric fluidity. But if you compare the number ones of 1983 (when This Charming Man was released) you have:

    Little Red Corvet, Prince.
    Billie Jean, Michael Jackson.
    Let's Dance, David Bowie.
    True, Spandau Ballet.

    Compared to last year, for instance:

    You Are Not Alone, X Factor Finalists
    Break Your Heart, Taio Cruz
    My Life Would Suck WIthout You, Kelly Clarkson
    And a buttload of Lady Gaga

    To that extent, I'll give Morrissey and The Smiths their dues. As much as I don't like them, at least it's real music.

    "He was a boy, she was a girl... Can I make it anymore obvious?"

    But who buys singles anymore? 14 year old kids mostly, and so they're filled with 14 year old kid music. Or as a one-off for such 'event' singles as the X Factor winner. The singles charts mean absolutely zilch compared to what they used to.
  • Genius or twat? Well, neither I guess. Genius is probably taking things too far but he is a very good songwriter, both in terms of original and interesting subject matter and in terms of his use of the language. He's also very entertaining as a stage performer.
    As for twat, well he leads an unorthodox lifestyle and he sometimes says things that I disagree with, I'm not sure that's enough to brand him as a twat though.
  • edited May 2010
    It's a comparison of 'popular' music, and that - In the eighties, the quality of 'popular' music was of a higher standard. Where better to make that comparison than the pop charts. You'd be clutching at straws to define 'True' or 'Billie Jean' as anything other than pop, yet nowadays pop music is completely dominated by conveyor-line r&b crap.

    Obviously, it's on the independent labels that the best and most original bands now ply their trade. I'm not saying that music these days is crap, because it really isn't. But pop music has taken a complete dive.
  • edited May 2010
    [cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]It's a comparison of 'popular' music, and that - In the eighties, the quality of 'popular' music was of a higher standard. Where better to make that comparison than the pop charts. You'd be clutching at straws to define 'True' or 'Billie Jean' as anything other than pop, yet nowadays pop music is completely dominated by conveyor-line r&b crap.

    Obviously, it's on the independent labels that the best and most original bands now ply their trade. I'm not saying that music these days is crap, because it really isn't. But pop music has taken a complete dive.

    My point is that singles charts aren't necessarily representative of the music that is popular, as barely anyone buys singles these days and thus its skewed to whatever demographics do. Conveyor-line r&b you speak of lives by singles and targeting those who'll buy singles, and so it's overrepresented in the charts.

    What is your definition of pop? Is it just what is popular or is it a genre? Are Kings of Leon for example 'pop'?

    Say the Smiths were around now. They'd probably get a lot of album sales and a lot of radio play, but they wouldn't make a much headway in the singles charts. It wouldn't mean they weren't popular music
  • I understand where you're coming from, but short of developing some clever research tool or hitting the books, the charts are as close as you're going to come to a comparison of 'popular' music over decades.

    To be perfectly honest with you, Sussex - I don't really care enough about this topic to get into some prolonged to-and-fro over the definition of pop music.
  • [cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]I understand where you're coming from, but short of developing some clever research tool or hitting the books, the charts are as close as you're going to come to a comparison of 'popular' music over decades.

    To be perfectly honest with you, Sussex - I don't really care enough about this topic to get into some prolonged to-and-fro over the definition of pop music.

    Don't worry, wasn't looking for a-to-and-fro! I've done my reactionary 'defending my generation' thing so I think that'll do
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  • edited May 2010
    I'm only 22 myself!


    edit - just realised I'm 23. < Idiot.
  • Morrisey = twat
    Smiths = good
    Liam Gallagher = twat
    Oasis = good
  • Bibble - where can we hear you play?
  • A lyrical genius.

    Simples.
  • edited May 2010
    I think you either 'get' Morrissey or you don't.

    The Smiths were an integral part of my teenage years.
    I was fairly outgoing and had friends but there was always a part of me that felt slightly apart and misunderstood, (much like most teenagers I imagine).
    The Smiths tapped into that side of my personality perfectly and while I never went around completely morose or sat sulking in my bedroom, they were an understanding soundtrack to my angst.
    Even after all these years, "There is a light..." will send shivers down my spine, especially the live versions you can pick out on YouTube.
    Morrissey was and is undoubtedly a 'difficult' and awkward sod but nobody can deny his lyrics and his way of delivering them go perfectly with Johnny Marr's amazing guitar work.

    Since the Smiths split he has released some crackers but also some duffs.
    I'd say he is a massive talent who also happens to be a selfish and annoying git on the side - but if you 'get' him, it's all part of the appeal.
    perfection
  • Just like Radiohead, every one raves about them, I just dont get it with either.
  • been to see both the Smiths and Morrissey numerous times, excellent nights out, tho it must be said the man somethimes appears to be up his own arse !
  • He is *fantastic* live.

    Johnny Marr is also a genius but made the biggest boo boo in history by leaving the Smiths.
  • bibble has an intresting point of view on Marr ?? seems everything I watch on 'guitar heros' and Marr is up there, if its just for only 'How Soon Is Now'
  • HAHA! just read Bibble's post.

    Should change his name to wibble.
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  • Marco, interesting take on it.

    I never got into the Smiths but even at the time I realised I was too old (mid 20s) when they came to national attention. If I had been 17 I would have loved all that angst.

    Some of the tunes are OK but it doesn't resonate with me in the way other music does.
  • when does a band stop being a band and become Art ?
  • When the tour bus goes off a cliff and their remains are splattered on the rocks below!
  • [cite]Posted By: Marco[/cite]I think you either 'get' Morrissey or you don't.

    The Smiths were an integral part of my teenage years.
    I was fairly outgoing and had friends but there was always a part of me that felt slightly apart and misunderstood, (much like most teenagers I imagine).
    The Smiths tapped into that side of my personality perfectly and while I never went around completely morose or sat sulking in my bedroom, they were an understanding soundtrack to my angst.
    Even after all these years, "There is a light..." will send shivers down my spine, especially the live versions you can pick out on YouTube.
    Morrissey was and is undoubtedly a 'difficult' and awkward sod but nobody can deny his lyrics and his way of delivering them go perfectly with Johnny Marr's amazing guitar work.

    Since the Smiths split he has released some crackers but also some duffs.
    I'd say he is a massive talent who also happens to be a selfish and annoying git on the side - but if you 'get' him, it's all part of the appeal.
    perfection
    Very good post that I suspect sums up things for a lot of people.


    [cite]Posted By: falconwood_1[/cite]...Johnny Marr is also a genius but made the biggest boo boo in history by leaving the Smiths.
    I take it that's from your perspective rather than his. After all he was for quite a while after The Smiths, the world's highest paid session musician, he's had the opportunity to play with just about anyone he ever wanted too, and offers to be in bands have never ceased. True, none of them have ever had the same critical acclaim or wide fan base of The Smiths, but that doesn't mean he made a bad move.
  • edited May 2010
    It's feels a bit strange to come on here defending the smiths because I am/was not a particular fan of their music.
    BUT their stuff was distinctive and original, Marr's guitar work was inventive and he had his own sound. In an era where you can replicate guitar set ups on a computer, maybe it is a little easy to forget that influential guitarists often have contributed a unique sound as well as what they play.
    So I, for one, am glad the likes of the Smiths were out there, because they offered something different, not always what grabbed me but no matter.
    As for whether Morrissey was a twat or genius, probably the former like a lot of other musicians ;-) probably not the latter, for me the likes of Mozart, Da Vinci, the bloke who cracked the enigma code ( can't think of his name at the moment) etc are the sort of people who could be called "genius"
    :-)
  • Alan Turing - defo genius.
  • [cite]Posted By: Marco[/cite]
    I was fairly outgoing and had friends but there was always a part of me that felt slightly apart and misunderstood, (much like most teenagers I imagine).
    The Smiths tapped into that side of my personality perfectly and while I never went around completely morose or sat sulking in my bedroom, they were an understanding soundtrack to my angst.

    Great post Marco, but don't we all go through that at some stage.
    Each generation seems to throw up an artist that taps into that, although Morrisey does seem to have made a career out of it.
  • So glad I started this thread...I've discovered The Cribs, WOW brilliant guitar by the much maligned Johnny Marr. Laying back chords with that magic 128 is a mark of perfect feel and timing. Plenty of guitarist can play manic scales (Kieth 'I've just crapped myself' Airey) comes to mind, but they mean nothing if they have no soul.
  • the smiths - amazing.
    morrissey - average.
  • Sort of coming around to your way of thinking Jonjo...isnt life full of suprises?
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