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Ohhhhh Jeremy Corrrrrrbyn

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  • Go Paddy, go!!

    PaddyP17 said:

    @Henry Irving I would still like to point out that you have many completely valid concerns re Corbyn and general anti-Semitism in the Labour Party that I share (as I've said before, I'll be voting Green until a leadership change), and I absolutely respect your views.

    @Callumcafc Glad to see that you support PaddyP17's views on Corbyn
  • First Set,
    First game
    Paddy 30-15 Henry
  • Corbyn= politics of Envy......with a capital E.
  • cafctom said:

    It’s not so much him that gets my blood boiling, but more so his ardent supporters - particularly the vicious ones who will spit blood at anyone who dares to suggest the sun doesn’t shine out of his arse.

    I'm not a fan of political zealots of any colour but the Corbyn faithful in particular remind me of religious fundamentalist witch burners.
  • The problem is and this thread sums it up beautifully, everything has to be black or white for the voting public. It’s what led us down this path with Brexit too.

    Corbyn is either a disaster waiting to happen (as is every Labour opposition leader) or he’s the country’s saviour in waiting.

    Brexit is either our ticket to the promised land or it’s going to leave us in absolute ruin.


    There is no room for nuance in a debate in a 21st century democracy.

    I’d say Corbyn is part of this problem rather than suffering because of it. His views on most things come down to very black and white views.
  • Also we have a whole thread bashing the tories/May so why can’t we have a labour one. Only seems fair

    There was a “how does Labour need to change” thread but it got too heated and then sunk.
    But why though - the Tory thread gets quite heated.
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  • PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    Evidence 2. Corbyn takes part in a minute's silence for terrorists,

    At an Irish Republican event in 1987, Corbyn took part in a minute's silence to commemorate eight IRA men shot dead by the SAS as they travelled to attack a police station in County Armagh. 'I'm happy to commemorate all those who died fighting for an independent Ireland,' he said.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571924/Corbyn-s-30-years-talking-terrorists.html

    A couple of points:

    - The Mail might just have an anti-Corbyn agenda. I say this before reading the article. Yes, doesn't make what it say automatically untrue

    - This was thirty years ago. Change is possible in that time, surely? Any evidence that Corbyn has changed his stance

    - This article is too long for me to refute every single claim individually, but I find the following particularly egregious: Too long?

    "Following the terror attacks in Paris in 2015, Corbyn said he opposed police being allowed to shoot terror suspects, saying he's 'not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general'." Separate bit of evidence against Corbyn but doesn't invalidate the evidence.

    Hang on. This is a bit of a false equivalence/straw man and recontextualises his words to fit the Mail's agenda.
    Well done for at least having a go rather than just dismissing it all by saying "you're obsessed".

    Yes, too long. I'll have a response for you, sentence by sentence if you like, sometime in 2020.

    Much of it is likely valid. But then you get stuff like this:

    In 1981, London Labour Briefing, a far-Left monthly journal that Corbyn helped run, published a letter from Liam McCloskey, a convicted terrorist, inviting readers to 'help us along the road to a Socialist Republic free from the chains of capitalism'.

    - What was Corbyn's role? "Helped run" could mean absolutely anything.

    - Corbyn didn't publish the letter himself, did he? Or even write it. Or even necessarily express its views.

    - ... Capitalism isn't exactly perfect, but that's by the by.

    ----------------------

    So yes, it's miles too long to properly refute if I'm going to be exercising critical thought on literally every bullet point. It is much, much easier for me to shit on the Mail like I usually do (well, I don't, because I wouldn't even want to use it as toilet paper).
    I imagine it means he had a leading role within the paper, wiki would agree

    "Jeremy Corbyn, later Leader of the Labour Party, became a regular contributor to London Labour Briefing in the 1980s, and was described by The Times in 1981 as "Briefing's founder".[2] The Economist in a 1982 article named Corbyn as "Briefing's general secretary figure",[3] as did a profile on Corbyn compiled by parliamentary biographer Andrew Roth in 2004,[4][5] which alleges that he joined the editorial board as General Secretary in 1979.[6] "

    Helped run seems fairly accurate! If he was Indeed an editor then surely he's, at least partly responsible for what They print?
  • Same with his views on nuclear deterrence. Would he press the button?

    ITS NOT A YES OR NO QUESTION
  • Also we have a whole thread bashing the tories/May so why can’t we have a labour one. Only seems fair

    There was a “how does Labour need to change” thread but it got too heated and then sunk.
    But why though - the Tory thread gets quite heated.
    I think some pretty nasty stuff was said about Diane Abbott but I might be wrong.

    Either way, it turns out that that thread wasn’t just sunk. A google search tells me it’s been blown off the face of the earth.
  • Same with his views on nuclear deterrence. Would he press the button?

    ITS NOT A YES OR NO QUESTION

    His views on nuclear deterrence is we shouldn’t have one. As black and white as you can get.
  • edited December 2018
    PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    Evidence 2. Corbyn takes part in a minute's silence for terrorists,

    At an Irish Republican event in 1987, Corbyn took part in a minute's silence to commemorate eight IRA men shot dead by the SAS as they travelled to attack a police station in County Armagh. 'I'm happy to commemorate all those who died fighting for an independent Ireland,' he said.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571924/Corbyn-s-30-years-talking-terrorists.html

    A couple of points:

    - The Mail might just have an anti-Corbyn agenda. I say this before reading the article. Yes, doesn't make what it say automatically untrue

    - This was thirty years ago. Change is possible in that time, surely? Any evidence that Corbyn has changed his stance

    - This article is too long for me to refute every single claim individually, but I find the following particularly egregious: Too long?

    "Following the terror attacks in Paris in 2015, Corbyn said he opposed police being allowed to shoot terror suspects, saying he's 'not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general'." Separate bit of evidence against Corbyn but doesn't invalidate the evidence.

    Hang on. This is a bit of a false equivalence/straw man and recontextualises his words to fit the Mail's agenda.
    Well done for at least having a go rather than just dismissing it all by saying "you're obsessed".

    Yes, too long. I'll have a response for you, sentence by sentence if you like, sometime in 2020.

    Much of it is likely valid. But then you get stuff like this:

    In 1981, London Labour Briefing, a far-Left monthly journal that Corbyn helped run, published a letter from Liam McCloskey, a convicted terrorist, inviting readers to 'help us along the road to a Socialist Republic free from the chains of capitalism'.

    - What was Corbyn's role? "Helped run" could mean absolutely anything.

    - Corbyn didn't publish the letter himself, did he? Or even write it. Or even necessarily express its views.

    - ... Capitalism isn't exactly perfect, but that's by the by.

    ----------------------

    So yes, it's miles too long to properly refute if I'm going to be exercising critical thought on literally every bullet point. It is much, much easier for me to shit on the Mail like I usually do (well, I don't, because I wouldn't even want to use it as toilet paper).
    I wasn't referencing every point in that article though. Just that one point i mentioned.

    We can argue about how much influence that Corbyn had on the journal but these are very small, controlled magazines. Things like that wouldn't be published "by mistake" or without either Corbyn knowing or agreeing. But it is a "weaker" link than others, I agree even if it is consistent with his long held and public pro-IRA stance which he has never, to my knowledge, changed.

    Edit Stu has proved my point rather better than I could have done.
  • However much Corbyn's opinions differ from mine, I don't think it's right to suppose that if he became prime minister, he'll get it all his way and do everything he wanted to achieve. This will no doubt annoy his more extreme supporters, but for me is a good thing. In fact, one of my main criticisms of Corbyn is that he's a really useless leader, both of labour and the opposition in general.
  • PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    Evidence 2. Corbyn takes part in a minute's silence for terrorists,

    At an Irish Republican event in 1987, Corbyn took part in a minute's silence to commemorate eight IRA men shot dead by the SAS as they travelled to attack a police station in County Armagh. 'I'm happy to commemorate all those who died fighting for an independent Ireland,' he said.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571924/Corbyn-s-30-years-talking-terrorists.html

    A couple of points:

    - The Mail might just have an anti-Corbyn agenda. I say this before reading the article. Yes, doesn't make what it say automatically untrue

    - This was thirty years ago. Change is possible in that time, surely? Any evidence that Corbyn has changed his stance

    - This article is too long for me to refute every single claim individually, but I find the following particularly egregious: Too long?

    "Following the terror attacks in Paris in 2015, Corbyn said he opposed police being allowed to shoot terror suspects, saying he's 'not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general'." Separate bit of evidence against Corbyn but doesn't invalidate the evidence.

    Hang on. This is a bit of a false equivalence/straw man and recontextualises his words to fit the Mail's agenda.
    Well done for at least having a go rather than just dismissing it all by saying "you're obsessed".

    Yes, too long. I'll have a response for you, sentence by sentence if you like, sometime in 2020.

    Much of it is likely valid. But then you get stuff like this:

    In 1981, London Labour Briefing, a far-Left monthly journal that Corbyn helped run, published a letter from Liam McCloskey, a convicted terrorist, inviting readers to 'help us along the road to a Socialist Republic free from the chains of capitalism'.

    - What was Corbyn's role? "Helped run" could mean absolutely anything.

    - Corbyn didn't publish the letter himself, did he? Or even write it. Or even necessarily express its views.

    - ... Capitalism isn't exactly perfect, but that's by the by.

    ----------------------

    So yes, it's miles too long to properly refute if I'm going to be exercising critical thought on literally every bullet point. It is much, much easier for me to shit on the Mail like I usually do (well, I don't, because I wouldn't even want to use it as toilet paper).
    I imagine it means he had a leading role within the paper, wiki would agree

    "Jeremy Corbyn, later Leader of the Labour Party, became a regular contributor to London Labour Briefing in the 1980s, and was described by The Times in 1981 as "Briefing's founder".[2] The Economist in a 1982 article named Corbyn as "Briefing's general secretary figure",[3] as did a profile on Corbyn compiled by parliamentary biographer Andrew Roth in 2004,[4][5] which alleges that he joined the editorial board as General Secretary in 1979.[6] "

    Helped run seems fairly accurate! If he was Indeed an editor then surely he's, at least partly responsible for what They print?
    Fair play. Even so, we've just put in collectively, I imagine, several minutes' worth of research and typing and refutation to each other/the Mail, going off of one (seemingly accurate, in fairness) claim made in one sentence of a pretty long article.

    This will come as a shock to many people, but I have better things to do that go through that article point by point, and I presume this back-and-forth demonstrates the necessity for nuance, as Callum so correctly summarises above.
  • edited December 2018

    Same with his views on nuclear deterrence. Would he press the button?

    ITS NOT A YES OR NO QUESTION

    If Corby had his way, we couldn't even ask the question, he's as dangerous as they come
  • Same with his views on nuclear deterrence. Would he press the button?

    ITS NOT A YES OR NO QUESTION

    His views on nuclear deterrence is we shouldn’t have one. As black and white as you can get.
    Yes, although I believe he listened to his party on that one and left the nuclear deterrent in the manifesto at the General Election.

    As to whether he would push the button on the deterrent, anyone is going to have a hugely hard time saying yes to killing millions of innocents.

    The frothing at the mouth of some Question Time audience members a year and a half ago around that particular topic was bizarre to say the least - they wanted death and destruction.
  • You don’t get time to react to a nuclear war, that and game theory dictates you should say “I would push the button”.
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  • Same with his views on nuclear deterrence. Would he press the button?

    ITS NOT A YES OR NO QUESTION

    Actually, yes it is.
  • PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    Evidence 2. Corbyn takes part in a minute's silence for terrorists,

    At an Irish Republican event in 1987, Corbyn took part in a minute's silence to commemorate eight IRA men shot dead by the SAS as they travelled to attack a police station in County Armagh. 'I'm happy to commemorate all those who died fighting for an independent Ireland,' he said.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571924/Corbyn-s-30-years-talking-terrorists.html

    A couple of points:

    - The Mail might just have an anti-Corbyn agenda. I say this before reading the article. Yes, doesn't make what it say automatically untrue

    - This was thirty years ago. Change is possible in that time, surely? Any evidence that Corbyn has changed his stance

    - This article is too long for me to refute every single claim individually, but I find the following particularly egregious: Too long?

    "Following the terror attacks in Paris in 2015, Corbyn said he opposed police being allowed to shoot terror suspects, saying he's 'not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general'." Separate bit of evidence against Corbyn but doesn't invalidate the evidence.

    Hang on. This is a bit of a false equivalence/straw man and recontextualises his words to fit the Mail's agenda.
    Well done for at least having a go rather than just dismissing it all by saying "you're obsessed".

    Yes, too long. I'll have a response for you, sentence by sentence if you like, sometime in 2020.

    Much of it is likely valid. But then you get stuff like this:

    In 1981, London Labour Briefing, a far-Left monthly journal that Corbyn helped run, published a letter from Liam McCloskey, a convicted terrorist, inviting readers to 'help us along the road to a Socialist Republic free from the chains of capitalism'.

    - What was Corbyn's role? "Helped run" could mean absolutely anything.

    - Corbyn didn't publish the letter himself, did he? Or even write it. Or even necessarily express its views.

    - ... Capitalism isn't exactly perfect, but that's by the by.

    ----------------------

    So yes, it's miles too long to properly refute if I'm going to be exercising critical thought on literally every bullet point. It is much, much easier for me to shit on the Mail like I usually do (well, I don't, because I wouldn't even want to use it as toilet paper).
    I imagine it means he had a leading role within the paper, wiki would agree

    "Jeremy Corbyn, later Leader of the Labour Party, became a regular contributor to London Labour Briefing in the 1980s, and was described by The Times in 1981 as "Briefing's founder".[2] The Economist in a 1982 article named Corbyn as "Briefing's general secretary figure",[3] as did a profile on Corbyn compiled by parliamentary biographer Andrew Roth in 2004,[4][5] which alleges that he joined the editorial board as General Secretary in 1979.[6] "

    Helped run seems fairly accurate! If he was Indeed an editor then surely he's, at least partly responsible for what They print?
    Fair play. Even so, we've just put in collectively, I imagine, several minutes' worth of research and typing and refutation to each other/the Mail, going off of one (seemingly accurate, in fairness) claim made in one sentence of a pretty long article.

    This will come as a shock to many people, but I have better things to do that go through that article point by point, and I presume this back-and-forth demonstrates the necessity for nuance, as Callum so correctly summarises above.
    I was observing a teacher I'm firing next week, so I really had nothing better to do!
  • McBobbin said:

    However much Corbyn's opinions differ from mine, I don't think it's right to suppose that if he became prime minister, he'll get it all his way and do everything he wanted to achieve. This will no doubt annoy his more extreme supporters, but for me is a good thing. In fact, one of my main criticisms of Corbyn is that he's a really useless leader, both of labour and the opposition in general.

    Or even intends to stand by everything he says he wants to achieve
  • Same with his views on nuclear deterrence. Would he press the button?

    ITS NOT A YES OR NO QUESTION

    Actually, yes it is.
    If you want a black and white world, I suppose it is. :-)
  • edited December 2018
    Although, I agree that the answer to the deterrent question should be “Yes IF x y z conditions are met” but I can see why any political is hesitant to condition their answers like that.
  • McBobbin said:

    However much Corbyn's opinions differ from mine, I don't think it's right to suppose that if he became prime minister, he'll get it all his way and do everything he wanted to achieve. This will no doubt annoy his more extreme supporters, but for me is a good thing. In fact, one of my main criticisms of Corbyn is that he's a really useless leader, both of labour and the opposition in general.

    Or even intends to stand by everything he says he wants to achieve
    Agreed.
  • PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    Evidence 2. Corbyn takes part in a minute's silence for terrorists,

    At an Irish Republican event in 1987, Corbyn took part in a minute's silence to commemorate eight IRA men shot dead by the SAS as they travelled to attack a police station in County Armagh. 'I'm happy to commemorate all those who died fighting for an independent Ireland,' he said.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571924/Corbyn-s-30-years-talking-terrorists.html

    A couple of points:

    - The Mail might just have an anti-Corbyn agenda. I say this before reading the article. Yes, doesn't make what it say automatically untrue

    - This was thirty years ago. Change is possible in that time, surely? Any evidence that Corbyn has changed his stance

    - This article is too long for me to refute every single claim individually, but I find the following particularly egregious: Too long?

    "Following the terror attacks in Paris in 2015, Corbyn said he opposed police being allowed to shoot terror suspects, saying he's 'not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general'." Separate bit of evidence against Corbyn but doesn't invalidate the evidence.

    Hang on. This is a bit of a false equivalence/straw man and recontextualises his words to fit the Mail's agenda.
    Well done for at least having a go rather than just dismissing it all by saying "you're obsessed".

    Yes, too long. I'll have a response for you, sentence by sentence if you like, sometime in 2020.

    Much of it is likely valid. But then you get stuff like this:

    In 1981, London Labour Briefing, a far-Left monthly journal that Corbyn helped run, published a letter from Liam McCloskey, a convicted terrorist, inviting readers to 'help us along the road to a Socialist Republic free from the chains of capitalism'.

    - What was Corbyn's role? "Helped run" could mean absolutely anything.

    - Corbyn didn't publish the letter himself, did he? Or even write it. Or even necessarily express its views.

    - ... Capitalism isn't exactly perfect, but that's by the by.

    ----------------------

    So yes, it's miles too long to properly refute if I'm going to be exercising critical thought on literally every bullet point. It is much, much easier for me to shit on the Mail like I usually do (well, I don't, because I wouldn't even want to use it as toilet paper).
    I imagine it means he had a leading role within the paper, wiki would agree

    "Jeremy Corbyn, later Leader of the Labour Party, became a regular contributor to London Labour Briefing in the 1980s, and was described by The Times in 1981 as "Briefing's founder".[2] The Economist in a 1982 article named Corbyn as "Briefing's general secretary figure",[3] as did a profile on Corbyn compiled by parliamentary biographer Andrew Roth in 2004,[4][5] which alleges that he joined the editorial board as General Secretary in 1979.[6] "

    Helped run seems fairly accurate! If he was Indeed an editor then surely he's, at least partly responsible for what They print?
    Fair play. Even so, we've just put in collectively, I imagine, several minutes' worth of research and typing and refutation to each other/the Mail, going off of one (seemingly accurate, in fairness) claim made in one sentence of a pretty long article.

    This will come as a shock to many people, but I have better things to do that go through that article point by point, and I presume this back-and-forth demonstrates the necessity for nuance, as Callum so correctly summarises above.
    All true @leuth rather sneeringly suggested he find any attempt to present evidence as funny. Where was the nuance there?

    Evidence is being presented but like you I have things to do just know but will come back with more.
  • Same with his views on nuclear deterrence. Would he press the button?

    ITS NOT A YES OR NO QUESTION

    Actually, yes it is.
    If you want a black and white world, I suppose it is. :-)
    Read up on game theory and mutually assured destruction. A well tred and highly successful use of game theory.
  • PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    PaddyP17 said:

    Evidence 2. Corbyn takes part in a minute's silence for terrorists,

    At an Irish Republican event in 1987, Corbyn took part in a minute's silence to commemorate eight IRA men shot dead by the SAS as they travelled to attack a police station in County Armagh. 'I'm happy to commemorate all those who died fighting for an independent Ireland,' he said.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571924/Corbyn-s-30-years-talking-terrorists.html

    A couple of points:

    - The Mail might just have an anti-Corbyn agenda. I say this before reading the article. Yes, doesn't make what it say automatically untrue

    - This was thirty years ago. Change is possible in that time, surely? Any evidence that Corbyn has changed his stance

    - This article is too long for me to refute every single claim individually, but I find the following particularly egregious: Too long?

    "Following the terror attacks in Paris in 2015, Corbyn said he opposed police being allowed to shoot terror suspects, saying he's 'not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general'." Separate bit of evidence against Corbyn but doesn't invalidate the evidence.

    Hang on. This is a bit of a false equivalence/straw man and recontextualises his words to fit the Mail's agenda.
    Well done for at least having a go rather than just dismissing it all by saying "you're obsessed".

    Yes, too long. I'll have a response for you, sentence by sentence if you like, sometime in 2020.

    Much of it is likely valid. But then you get stuff like this:

    In 1981, London Labour Briefing, a far-Left monthly journal that Corbyn helped run, published a letter from Liam McCloskey, a convicted terrorist, inviting readers to 'help us along the road to a Socialist Republic free from the chains of capitalism'.

    - What was Corbyn's role? "Helped run" could mean absolutely anything.

    - Corbyn didn't publish the letter himself, did he? Or even write it. Or even necessarily express its views.

    - ... Capitalism isn't exactly perfect, but that's by the by.

    ----------------------

    So yes, it's miles too long to properly refute if I'm going to be exercising critical thought on literally every bullet point. It is much, much easier for me to shit on the Mail like I usually do (well, I don't, because I wouldn't even want to use it as toilet paper).
    I imagine it means he had a leading role within the paper, wiki would agree

    "Jeremy Corbyn, later Leader of the Labour Party, became a regular contributor to London Labour Briefing in the 1980s, and was described by The Times in 1981 as "Briefing's founder".[2] The Economist in a 1982 article named Corbyn as "Briefing's general secretary figure",[3] as did a profile on Corbyn compiled by parliamentary biographer Andrew Roth in 2004,[4][5] which alleges that he joined the editorial board as General Secretary in 1979.[6] "

    Helped run seems fairly accurate! If he was Indeed an editor then surely he's, at least partly responsible for what They print?
    Fair play. Even so, we've just put in collectively, I imagine, several minutes' worth of research and typing and refutation to each other/the Mail, going off of one (seemingly accurate, in fairness) claim made in one sentence of a pretty long article.

    This will come as a shock to many people, but I have better things to do that go through that article point by point, and I presume this back-and-forth demonstrates the necessity for nuance, as Callum so correctly summarises above.
    All true @leuth rather sneeringly suggested he find any attempt to present evidence as funny. Where was the nuance there?

    Evidence is being presented but like you I have things to do just know but will come back with more.
    You don't play cricket with Leuth and I - our relationship dynamic is barely what one could call functional :wink:
  • The problem is and this thread sums it up beautifully, everything has to be black or white for the voting public. It’s what led us down this path with Brexit too.

    Corbyn is either a disaster waiting to happen (as is every Labour opposition leader) or he’s the country’s saviour in waiting.

    Brexit is either our ticket to the promised land or it’s going to leave us in absolute ruin.


    There is no room for nuance in a debate in a 21st century democracy.

    Nuence is not something Corbyn and the far left are famous for.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!