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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • Nobody is ruling out Remain as an option says Kier Starmer at Labour conference to a standing ovation. An overwhelming majority backed the motion. We will now see how this plays in the press and on social media followed by the Tory conference next week... and the next set of polls. In theory there is a 3-5% Labour bounce at stake?

    Labour chose a policy debate at their conference to announce their support for a second referendum to enable the people to make a decision on real choices as opposed to unicorns and slogans on busses. This has ensured maximum coverage as well as requiring an immediate response from the Tories.

    It is also clear that those who support this option need to keep up the pressure over the coming months for Labour have adopted it as an option within a range of possibilities. That would be the message coming from the likes of Chuka remoaners. That is how democracy works in the UK today.

    Most importantly of all what will M.Barnier come back with next month - possibly whatever he suggests simply cannot be accepted by May. But can easily accomodated by Corbyn, Starmer and McDonnell? We are moving towards the end game but we are not there yet.

    People made their decision they voted OUT how many more times do you dinosaur's need to be told...
  • Yeah you dinosaur !
  • Meanwhile can someone help me? Who is now the real voice of Labour? Is it still Corbyn? Or is it perhaps Keir Starmer? If the latter, then maybe my vote is in play. Just that, I understand he has won a vote which effectively contradicts McDonnell yesterday, but then I heard a union comrade with an accent I rcognised as "Polytechnic Soshulist" denouncing his motion.

    Who's in charge of this lot?


    Oi! I have warned you about that in the past.
  • Meanwhile can someone help me? Who is now the real voice of Labour? Is it still Corbyn? Or is it perhaps Keir Starmer? If the latter, then maybe my vote is in play. Just that, I understand he has won a vote which effectively contradicts McDonnell yesterday, but then I heard a union comrade with an accent I rcognised as "Polytechnic Soshulist" denouncing his motion.

    Who's in charge of this lot?

    I think they call it free speech. But basically, Corbyn has confirmed that what Starmer said was cleared by him.
    Did he, now? Did he also clear what McDonnell said, then?
  • Meanwhile can someone help me? Who is now the real voice of Labour? Is it still Corbyn? Or is it perhaps Keir Starmer? If the latter, then maybe my vote is in play. Just that, I understand he has won a vote which effectively contradicts McDonnell yesterday, but then I heard a union comrade with an accent I rcognised as "Polytechnic Soshulist" denouncing his motion.

    Who's in charge of this lot?

    I think they call it free speech. But basically, Corbyn has confirmed that what Starmer said was cleared by him.
    They used to talk of non-denial denials in the press lobby in days of yore; as Jeremy Corbyn is man of such days, I might be inclined to suggest that his statement was a non-confirmation confirmation.
  • edited September 2018

    Meanwhile can someone help me? Who is now the real voice of Labour? Is it still Corbyn? Or is it perhaps Keir Starmer? If the latter, then maybe my vote is in play. Just that, I understand he has won a vote which effectively contradicts McDonnell yesterday, but then I heard a union comrade with an accent I rcognised as "Polytechnic Soshulist" denouncing his motion.

    Who's in charge of this lot?

    I think they call it free speech. But basically, Corbyn has confirmed that what Starmer said was cleared by him.
    Did he, now? Did he also clear what McDonnell said, then?
    I don't think he did. The part where Starmer said Remain will be an option apparently was ad-libbed. It was not on the speech that was cleared by the leadership beforehand. Basically Jon Lansman, Mclusky and Momemtum could not give a Fuck about the the Labour membership's views on Brexit. I have zero confidence that the Labour Party's pro Brexit stance has really changed.
  • For anyone pinning their hopes on Labour achieving some great political coup, either reversing or amending the process of Brexit being followed by HMG, I would, on a cautionary note, direct attention to the amount of time allotted for discussing Brexit today.

    Whatever your view of the "benefits" of leaving the EU, it is the key political question of the day, to allocate a mere 90 minutes of Conference debate to the issue indicates a lack of seriousness.

    And the one thing that British politics needs now is serious political debate and thinking.
  • @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?
  • edited September 2018
    Sorry, I didn’t know I done that, I will immediately go back and remove it, I apologise. Hopefully removed now.
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  • edited September 2018
    The conference serves to clarify positions and the Labour one has been clarified, in much the same way as I have been predicting on here for some time. Corbyn wants to respect the referendum vote, but has his red lines and they are important red lines and that has been made clear. Given that we could be offered a choice between a no deal that Labour has always been completely against and a deal (we haven't seen it yet) that it probably can't support, I don't see what is strange or cynical about its position.

    I think it is a case of giving yourself space to react to the situation. It shouldn't be forgotten that Labour has backed government motions on Europe when it could have caused the government more problems. The reality is that it is unlikely that any deal May is able to strike is going to have the full support of her own party so why should people expect Labour to support it!!!!!

    But if there is a no deal the reaction has to be different to there say being a deal and being forced to pick May's deal or no deal!

    As for accusations of Labour putting themselves before the country - how ridiculous. Whether you agree with them or not, they think a Labour government will benefit the country!! I certainly think that any reasonable inspection of the performance of the Conservative party in government over a number of years cannot claim they have benefited the country! They have also put their party before the country and caused a major split that whatever happens is going to take a lot of healing!
  • In his speech it's clear that Corby's not exactly a fan of Gordys running of the country, is he?
  • I don't think it is a secret that Corbyn doesn't differentiate greatly between New Labour and the Conservatives.
  • Le Pen level with Macron in the latest polls.
    The EU elections in May should be interesting.
  • Alt Right popularism is a bigger threat to the EU than the UK leaving. It is what will ultimately end free movement and immigration is the major component of the fuel driving the popularism.
  • @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?

    Millwall innit.

  • @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?

    Millwall innit.

    CharltonKerry is Millwall?
    Crikey.
  • Is free movement within the EU the biggest concern of most right wing populist parties? Or are the more concerned with immigration from Africa and the middle East?
  • McBobbin said:

    Is free movement within the EU the biggest concern of most right wing populist parties? Or are the more concerned with immigration from Africa and the middle East?

    Both, I would imagine.
  • Not all Alt-right parties are identical but usually a common theme is the purity of race element to them. They often occupy some of the ground of the left speaking to people who are not doing so well, but only for THEIR people.
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  • @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?

    Millwall innit.

    CharltonKerry is Millwall?
    Crikey.
    Surprised me after 60 year of going to the valley :-)
  • BTW, i f we are drifting back to discussing right wing populism on the Continent, then I really recommended this illuminating article in der Spiegel. I read it while in Berlin and it helped me understand why nothing I saw there fitted with the British image of a Germany being consumed by a far-rght wave. It deals with the recent stuff in Chemnitz. You will need 10-15 minutes to read this two parter, but it will give you a different perspective to that which you read in most UK outlets.

    Oh and Spiegel is the mag which ran the recent critical article about Duchatelet, so they deserve for you to turn off the adblocker...
  • edited September 2018

    McBobbin said:

    Is free movement within the EU the biggest concern of most right wing populist parties? Or are the more concerned with immigration from Africa and the middle East?

    Both, I would imagine.
    Aha, but in a completely different way to how you imagine it, which shows up the inherent contradiction within the far Right of trying to get together as a pan-European movement.

    The new nutters in CEE are Orban and the Poles. Do they want free movement within the EU? You bet your life, because so many of their citizens are using it, and returning funds to the country.

    Le Pen and the AfD are mainly exercised about the flow of Muslims and people of incorrect colour. That means from outside Europe. The AfD know that German business needs the labour, so if they ended free movement, it might make it more difficult for Syrians to arrive in Germany, but it would also end the supply of well qualified people from CZ and Poland, some of whom can commute to work in Germany.

    The new Italians in power are in the front line of the migration wave, and (quite rightly IMO) resent the way they have been left to deal with it themselves. They want the CEE countries to take a small number of migrants, and these countries refuse to take even 100 (in the shameful case of the Czechs).

    A lot of Roma from CEE get the far right in France/Germany/Italy frothing, but again, they are citizens of countries which also send them cheap, capable doctors (such as my daughter in law), so in policy terms the politicians have no coherent proposal.

    It's pretty hilarious to see them cosying up to the likes of Farage, "Tommy Robinson" and Bannon, as those three want nothing but bad things to happen to their citizens who have made their way to the UK. Twats, the lot of them.

    Good summing up there Mr H.

    Meanwhile - this is funny - possibly related to someone on here, at no point does he acknowledge his stupidity? :wink:

    http://www.itv.com/news/central/2018-09-25/pro-brexit-mp-ends-up-looking-like-a-bit-of-a-lemon-daniel-kawczynski-shrewsbury-tesco-eu/
  • @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?

    Millwall innit.

    CharltonKerry is Millwall?
    Crikey.
    Surprised me after 60 year of going to the valley :-)
    Double agent I reckon!
  • bobmunro said:

    @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?

    Millwall innit.

    CharltonKerry is Millwall?
    Crikey.
    Surprised me after 60 year of going to the valley :-)
    Double agent I reckon!
    Over recent seasons, sleeper agent surely????
  • bobmunro said:

    @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?

    Millwall innit.

    CharltonKerry is Millwall?
    Crikey.
    Surprised me after 60 year of going to the valley :-)
    Double agent I reckon!
    Over recent seasons, sleeper agent surely????
    Are we talking about Charlton, Brexit, or Skripal here?

    Sorry, it's been 1.5k posts since I last visited the thread and I've lost track!
  • PaddyP17 said:

    bobmunro said:

    @CharltonKerry

    No doubt you're lovely, reasonable, all that stuff.

    Why the flag?

    Millwall innit.

    CharltonKerry is Millwall?
    Crikey.
    Surprised me after 60 year of going to the valley :-)
    Double agent I reckon!
    Over recent seasons, sleeper agent surely????
    Are we talking about Charlton, Brexit, or Skripal here?

    Sorry, it's been 1.5k posts since I last visited the thread and I've lost track!
    Whichever you'd like....
  • Shootersuarus and chizzu

    McBobbin said:

    Is free movement within the EU the biggest concern of most right wing populist parties? Or are the more concerned with immigration from Africa and the middle East?

    Both, I would imagine.
    Aha, but in a completely different way to how you imagine it, which shows up the inherent contradiction within the far Right of trying to get together as a pan-European movement.

    The new nutters in CEE are Orban and the Poles. Do they want free movement within the EU? You bet your life, because so many of their citizens are using it, and returning funds to the country.

    Le Pen and the AfD are mainly exercised about the flow of Muslims and people of incorrect colour. That means from outside Europe. The AfD know that German business needs the labour, so if they ended free movement, it might make it more difficult for Syrians to arrive in Germany, but it would also end the supply of well qualified people from CZ and Poland, some of whom can commute to work in Germany.

    The new Italians in power are in the front line of the migration wave, and (quite rightly IMO) resent the way they have been left to deal with it themselves. They want the CEE countries to take a small number of migrants, and these countries refuse to take even 100 (in the shameful case of the Czechs).

    A lot of Roma from CEE get the far right in France/Germany/Italy frothing, but again, they are citizens of countries which also send them cheap, capable doctors (such as my daughter in law), so in policy terms the politicians have no coherent proposal.

    It's pretty hilarious to see them cosying up to the likes of Farage, "Tommy Robinson" and Bannon, as those three want nothing but bad things to happen to their citizens who have made their way to the UK. Twats, the lot of them.

    Good summing up there Mr H.

    Meanwhile - this is funny - possibly related to someone on here, an no point does he acknowledge his stupidity? :wink:

    http://www.itv.com/news/central/2018-09-25/pro-brexit-mp-ends-up-looking-like-a-bit-of-a-lemon-daniel-kawczynski-shrewsbury-tesco-eu/
    Didn't think there was anyone left to pick the fruit.
  • Credit where credit is due. Corbyn is getting better at this. He is currently delivering an excellent speech. Measured in tone, skilfully delivered and full of relevant and pertinent content setting out the new Labour policy (in contrast to the ridiculous shouty and childish references to Spanish civil war 80 years ago by Emily Thornbury). It is a real shame that he and the Labour leadership have such a blind spot about Brexit and don't seem to realise that after Brexit there will be no scope to finance any of their new policies and they won't be able to protect the working classes who will be most affected by it.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!