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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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Comments

  • Rothko said:
    he couldn't say that in the HOC - not allowed to use the word liar.
    You suggesting fake news from the remainers.... Never

    Don’t think he is actually.
  • Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    Nadou said:

    Missed It said:

    Nadou said:

    How is it democratic to deny people the chance to change their mind and have another vote?

    It's kind of the EU's approach to referendums. We'll keep being democratic until you give us the right answer!
    Oh? Which referenda are these that they have done this to?
    Treaty of Nice and Treaty of Lisbon, Ireland had two goes at each of those in quick succession.

    Denmark had to have two goes at the Maastricht Treaty in the space of 12 months.

    Can't I even try to introduce a little levity without being asked provide documentary evidence?!
    Welcome to this forum...someone will post a link to say those things didn't happen...EU are democratic been told that here for the last 2 years...They do like their BOGOF referendums.
    Don't like to disappoint.

    Here's an interesting article on why the second referendums succeeded where the first ones failed.

    blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-voters-change-their-minds-in-second-referendums-on-eu-treaties/

    The salient point being that, "...Europe had listened to the Danish/Irish people and responded with legal guarantees, which were specifically on the themes raised by the No side..."

    So in both cases they went back to the EU and sought, and got, further clarification and legal guarantees that addressed the points raised by those in opposition to the relevent treaty. Having done this, they were able to pull the rug out from the anti-treaty campaign and ask the public again but this time in light of everyone now having the full facts and the reassurance.

    So, not quite the same as Leavers claims they 'keep running the same vote until they get the answer required'. I'm not aware the guarantees provided have ever been broken by the EU.
    A joke's never as funny when you have to explain it!
    Agreed. And a myth doesn't become any more true the more it's repeated either.
  • edited September 20

    So, as the Chequers deal looks to be dead it seems only fair that the British people should be able to decide between accepting no deal, abandoning the whole shambles or having some sort of customs union compromise.

    Very unsurprising that few leavers feel confident enough to put it to the country again, with people now much more informed. Have there been any that have the strength of conviction that the 'will of the people' is still with them? Would be good to see if there are any Leavers that say, yes we can now properly make the argument that we should accept No Deal or at least a soft Brexit and allow the public to decide what they want. As people have pointed out the Irish and Danish second votes were not repeats until they gave the right answer, but modifications on deals after more information and compromises were given. Much more democratic and mature than basing everything on one vote.

    Surely a “customs union compromise” is a deal in itself? I.e we couldn’t just put that on the ballot paper without a) the government proposing it and taking it to the EU, and b) the EU would have to agree to at least a framework outline of the proposed customs union deal?

    In reality, I think we’re out of time for a deal now - wasting the summer on the Chequers nonsense which was never going to be acceptable to either the EU or her party has cost us the chance of anything other than a hard Brexit or remain, it’ll be up to MPs to decide on which it’s going to be when they get their say in a few months.
  • This from the man that cost thousands of defence jobs when he was defence Secretary... Including mine. How some of you lefties can quote this right wing pig is beyond me.
  • "The Brexit majority is dead. Literally dead. Because the elderly have moved on."

    Brilliant comment from the great man.
  • Missed It said:

    Missed It said:

    Nadou said:

    Missed It said:

    Nadou said:

    How is it democratic to deny people the chance to change their mind and have another vote?

    It's kind of the EU's approach to referendums. We'll keep being democratic until you give us the right answer!
    Oh? Which referenda are these that they have done this to?
    Treaty of Nice and Treaty of Lisbon, Ireland had two goes at each of those in quick succession.

    Denmark had to have two goes at the Maastricht Treaty in the space of 12 months.

    Can't I even try to introduce a little levity without being asked provide documentary evidence?!
    Welcome to this forum...someone will post a link to say those things didn't happen...EU are democratic been told that here for the last 2 years...They do like their BOGOF referendums.
    Don't like to disappoint.

    Here's an interesting article on why the second referendums succeeded where the first ones failed.

    blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-voters-change-their-minds-in-second-referendums-on-eu-treaties/

    The salient point being that, "...Europe had listened to the Danish/Irish people and responded with legal guarantees, which were specifically on the themes raised by the No side..."

    So in both cases they went back to the EU and sought, and got, further clarification and legal guarantees that addressed the points raised by those in opposition to the relevent treaty. Having done this, they were able to pull the rug out from the anti-treaty campaign and ask the public again but this time in light of everyone now having the full facts and the reassurance.

    So, not quite the same as Leavers claims they 'keep running the same vote until they get the answer required'. I'm not aware the guarantees provided have ever been broken by the EU.
    A joke's never as funny when you have to explain it!
    Agreed. And a myth doesn't become any more true the more it's repeated either.
    Yes, i guess i should have known better. Throwaway quips will be ruthlessly and forensically challenged.
  • Posted without linking, there's a first.
  • edited September 20
    image
  • se9addick said:

    The EU have just thrown out May’s Chequers plan, which only yesterday she was telling us was the only alternative to a hard Brexit.

    So where are we now?

    Hilary Benn said this over a week ago. He is part of a back bench comittee looking at all the Leave options & spoke with Michel Barnier who told him as much then.

    Seeing as TM has backed herself into a corner with this I dont know what she thinks will happen. Does she think the EU will simply give in ?? She said yesterday that the "backstop" plan was not an option.
    So why the hell did she sign up to it last winter?
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  • Just catching up with it all on the news. Laughable
  • Posted without linking, there's a first.

    Congratulations!
  • Rothko said:
    he couldn't say that in the HOC - not allowed to use the word liar.
    He wouldn't have as far as the "liar" description, because he was speaking French. And conversing in foreign languages isn't allowed there.
  • This from the man that cost thousands of defence jobs when he was defence Secretary... Including mine. How some of you lefties can quote this right wing pig is beyond me.
    But with your skills and training Chipster I am sure you walked into another top job straight away.
  • This from the man that cost thousands of defence jobs when he was defence Secretary... Including mine. How some of you lefties can quote this right wing pig is beyond me.
    But with your skills and training Chipster I am sure you walked into another top job straight away.
    I did ....honours came later in my career...still saw a lot of good people put on the scrap heap, something not to be made fun off.

    Its clear that anyone here now, who mentions job losses really is fake and doesn't give a toss, which I have known for a long while.
  • aliwibble said:

    se9addick said:

    The EU have just thrown out May’s Chequers plan, which only yesterday she was telling us was the only alternative to a hard Brexit.

    So where are we now?

    Hilary Benn said this over a week ago. He is part of a back bench comittee looking at all the Leave options & spoke with Michel Barnier who told him as much then.

    Seeing as TM has backed herself into a corner with this I dont know what she thinks will happen. Does she think the EU will simply give in ?? She said yesterday that the "backstop" plan was not an option.
    So why the hell did she sign up to it last winter?
    The same reason my son agreed something recently & immediately went back on his word.

    " to get you off my case "

    She had to agree something then - but with no real meaningful outcome at that time it was simply more "kicking the can down the road". Now the chickens are coming home to roost and she has no other cards left to play.

    Why do you think David Davis resigned ? He knew Chequers wouldn't get through the EU. Whether he said anything at that meeting to that effect we'll probably never know.....but he knew it stank from day one.
  • aliwibble said:

    se9addick said:

    The EU have just thrown out May’s Chequers plan, which only yesterday she was telling us was the only alternative to a hard Brexit.

    So where are we now?

    Hilary Benn said this over a week ago. He is part of a back bench comittee looking at all the Leave options & spoke with Michel Barnier who told him as much then.

    Seeing as TM has backed herself into a corner with this I dont know what she thinks will happen. Does she think the EU will simply give in ?? She said yesterday that the "backstop" plan was not an option.
    So why the hell did she sign up to it last winter?
    The same reason my son agreed something recently & immediately went back on his word.

    " to get you off my case "

    She had to agree something then - but with no real meaningful outcome at that time it was simply more "kicking the can down the road". Now the chickens are coming home to roost and she has no other cards left to play.

    Why do you think David Davis resigned ? He knew Chequers wouldn't get through the EU. Whether he said anything at that meeting to that effect we'll probably never know.....but he knew it stank from day one.
    Think you got that wrong. Whether or not it was acceptable to the EU was irrelevant in his decision to resign.
  • QT was good again this evening.

    I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.

    I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;

    1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.

    or

    2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI

    Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
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  • edited September 20

    QT was good again this evening.

    I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.

    I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;

    1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.

    or

    2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI

    Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.

    So they economic carastrophy that we face is not an issue, just the opportunity for widescale smuggling on the Irish border?
  • edited September 21

    This from the man that cost thousands of defence jobs when he was defence Secretary... Including mine. How some of you lefties can quote this right wing pig is beyond me.
    But with your skills and training Chipster I am sure you walked into another top job straight away.
    I did ....honours came later in my career...still saw a lot of good people put on the scrap heap, something not to be made fun off.

    Its clear that anyone here now, who mentions job losses really is fake and doesn't give a toss, which I have known for a long while.
    V.C. MBE, Sir Chippy ?
  • Southbank said:

    I think your response just shows once again that you still do not understand why the majority of people in the UK voted for Brexit. It turns out that 'ordinary people' care more about politics than you and others think. And thank God that most people can see beyond bread and butter issues or our democratic way of life would really be screwed.

    100% agree! 30 years of a neoliberal agenda including 20 years of cuts under Thatcher, Major and Cameron (with help from Clegg) have devastated local governement, state schools and the NHS ability to meet targets. Ordinary voters care and that's why the leave campaign dressed up the Brexit case with a bribe for the NHS - for that is what their market research told them. The reality is that the EU is nothng to do with education, health, local services and housing but that hasn't stopped both Leave and the Tories blaming the EU - it takes the heat off them.

    I've been with you throughout, starting with the post mortem - the regions voted a landslide 58:42 in favour of leave. There must be a rationale behind that and it's a combination of a slick campaign plus flat wages and reduced opportunities for decades. What we have is failure of the centre to communicate and deliver - you and I recognise this happening across Europe and the latest alt-right group to punch through the 15% mark is the Swedish crowd.

    Where we perhaps differ is on the desired outcome. From the recent paper on a "roadmap to a People's Vote":
    The Government does not have a mandate to take the UK out of the EU without a deal. The mandate provided by the 2016 referendum was for the Government to negotiate a deal with the EU which voters were told would be easy and would deliver the “exact same benefits” as membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union. The case for leaving without any agreement was neither on the ballot paper nor debated in the 2016 campaign. A no deal outcome would be such a radical departure from what was promised, with such profound and long-lasting implications, that not allowing the public a say over whether or not to proceed would be deeply undemocratic."

    A hard Brexit is a disaster politically and philosophically. It is not yet clear how the UK avoids that because May is wrapped up in too many contradictions. May has now been given four weeks to come up with a realistic proposal after Chequers was binned. As posted before this was forseeable... and one move is to simply move towards what is acceptable to the EU - a Norway style option taking us out of the EU but retaining membership of the CU and SM.

    Can't see May taking that option but what other choices does she have?
  • edited September 21
    I think it avoids it because when it is presented to Conservative MPs who May has persuaded to stay onside up until now, it will go miles past their lines in the sand. It simply won't be accepted and the Prime Minister knows that. It will result in an election or another referendum. I can't see how the Tories could fight an election with the differences within it on Europe, so I think there will be another referendum.

    Because the prime minister is not a raging Brexiter and the fact she knows were a hard Brexit will lead her party, I can't see anything but some sort of deal though. Nobody is going to like it. In many ways what happens then is far more complicated to predict than a no deal scenario.
  • .

    ...She had to agree something then - but with no real meaningful outcome at that time it was simply more "kicking the can down the road". Now the chickens are coming home to roost and she has no other cards left to play...

    Congratulations on your hat trick Golfie, three metaphors in two sentences is a magnificent strike rate and possibly Charlton Life's best. You might not be voting again, but when this is all done and dusted you'll be taking the match ball home. :wink:
  • edited September 21
    The Sun's done itself proud this morning...
    image
  • Sadly some will lap this up and repeat this idiotic message. Same old sense of victimhood - it's easier to blame someone else for the negotiation shambles.
  • QT was good again this evening.

    I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.

    I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;

    1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.

    or

    2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI

    Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.

    I'll go for No.1.
  • QT was good again this evening.

    I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.

    I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;

    1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.

    or

    2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI

    Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.

    I'll go for No.1.
    So would most Brexiteers I would imagine...
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