It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
Everybody knows they are guilty, even they know they are guilty, and it doesn’t matter if they did this or not, evidence doesn’t come into it, they just need their card marked for something. As for a previous comment about ‘allies’ not supporting us next time around, that completely misses the point of what those other countries actually did. They didn’t so much as support us, they were doing something for themselves as well. They are all at threat as well, some more than others, and it’s far better to show a bit of backing to somebody else Standing up to a bully than be the one in an argument yourself. They can’t afford not to back Britain because it’s more than likely they will need our backing sooner or later and my money’s on the former at the moment.
Everybody knows they are guilty, even they know they are guilty, and it doesn’t matter if they did this or not, evidence doesn’t come into it, they just need their card marked for something. As for a previous comment about ‘allies’ not supporting us next time around, that completely misses the point of what those other countries actually did. They didn’t so much as support us, they were doing something for themselves as well. They are all at threat as well, some more than others, and it’s far better to show a bit of backing to somebody else Standing up to a bully than be the one in an argument yourself. They can’t afford not to back Britain because it’s more than likely they will need our backing sooner or later and my money’s on the former at the moment.
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
Johnson takes being a total cock to another level. The King of Buffoons is on another level of fuckwittery. And yet he is an MP that many people of his constituency voted into the house, and then was given a job in the cabinet, we are a comedy country.
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
Johnson takes being a total cock to another level. The King of Buffoons is on another level of fuckwittery. And yet he is an MP that many people of his constituency voted into the house, and then was given a job in the cabinet, we are a comedy country.
let's not forget voted in as London mayor twice...
I'm sure countries really feel they need our support these days.
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
How is that woman in the Iranian prison getting on ?
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
How is that woman in the Iranian prison getting on ?
I forgot about her, Johnson messed up there as well, jesus......
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
I thought Porton Down's Gary Aitkenhead statement was 100 percent reasonable.
His job is to identify the substance, not to enter the political arena. Unfortunately that job is left to the pantomime horse that is Boris Johnson. How many lies, cock ups and errors can a man make and keep in post? These old public school boys strut around, just like their fathers before them, in the total belief that they have the God given right to rule. Unfortunately if Boris can prove one thing it is the old boy network is alive and well and living in Westminster.
Fuller report here, and well worth reading. They are saying that they would not on their own be able to identify the precise source.
But May should have waited before playing her cards. She's handed Putin a free header.
She's shit at her job so no suprises.
Yay. Her and those losers from the rest of the International community who have decided to take action against Russia.
Mugs.
If Russia wanted to kill 2 people with a military grade neave agent.. would they still be alive ?
..bearing in mind a month ago we were told that a gram of this stuff would wipe out an entire city
Whether they die or not we have been sent a clear message. They have nerve agents in the country and can use them at will.
BUT we don't know it's the Russkies, do we!
For political expediency reasons we kept the lid on the other 13 or so dissident deaths in recent years (May was home secretary from 2010) we know how Russia deals with any opposition to the Putin one voice state.
Father and daughter are still alive because even the cold blooded Russians don't feel it's a good idea to kill the first responders who would attend to the stricken couple. As it is the Policeman was/ is poorly.
The Russians and Putin exist on a different level. Even when the Russian ultras attacked English fans at the last tournament instead of condemning the violence, The Russian government spokesman said "well done boys".
Fuller report here, and well worth reading. They are saying that they would not on their own be able to identify the precise source.
But May should have waited before playing her cards. She's handed Putin a free header.
She's shit at her job so no suprises.
Yay. Her and those losers from the rest of the International community who have decided to take action against Russia.
Mugs.
If Russia wanted to kill 2 people with a military grade neave agent.. would they still be alive ?
..bearing in mind a month ago we were told that a gram of this stuff would wipe out an entire city
Whether they die or not we have been sent a clear message. They have nerve agents in the country and can use them at will.
BUT we don't know it's the Russkies, do we!
For political expediency reasons we kept the lid on the other 13 or so dissident deaths in recent years (May was home secretary from 2010) we know how Russia deals with any opposition to the Putin one voice state.
Father and daughter are still alive because even the cold blooded Russians don't feel it's a good idea to kill the first responders who would attend to the stricken couple. As it is the Policeman was/ is poorly.
The Russians and Putin exist on a different level. Even when the Russian ultras attacked English fans at the last tournament instead of condemning the violence, The Russian government spokesman said "well done boys".
All very well, but you dont know it was the Russians do you, a bit like the WMD excuse that USA Puppet Blair trotted out as a way to excuse us going into Iraq, now where did that lead us....oh yes....a pandoras box of terrorism that was opened in the UK.
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
How is that woman in the Iranian prison getting on ?
Not very well. Her husband was trying to drum up media interest again yesterday.
Fuller report here, and well worth reading. They are saying that they would not on their own be able to identify the precise source.
But May should have waited before playing her cards. She's handed Putin a free header.
She's shit at her job so no suprises.
Yay. Her and those losers from the rest of the International community who have decided to take action against Russia.
Mugs.
If Russia wanted to kill 2 people with a military grade neave agent.. would they still be alive ?
..bearing in mind a month ago we were told that a gram of this stuff would wipe out an entire city
Whether they die or not we have been sent a clear message. They have nerve agents in the country and can use them at will.
BUT we don't know it's the Russkies, do we!
For political expediency reasons we kept the lid on the other 13 or so dissident deaths in recent years (May was home secretary from 2010) we know how Russia deals with any opposition to the Putin one voice state.
Father and daughter are still alive because even the cold blooded Russians don't feel it's a good idea to kill the first responders who would attend to the stricken couple. As it is the Policeman was/ is poorly.
The Russians and Putin exist on a different level. Even when the Russian ultras attacked English fans at the last tournament instead of condemning the violence, The Russian government spokesman said "well done boys".
All very well, but you dont know it was the Russians do you, a bit like the WMD excuse that USA Puppet Blair trotted out as a way to excuse us going into Iraq, now where did that lead us....oh yes....a pandoras box of terrorism that was opened in the UK.
I don't trust governments period.
When even the Marxist John McDonnell believes the Russians are behind it you do have to wonder ?
Agree over WMD. I believe Blair was thinking more of brown nosing the Americans and the lucrative book and speaking engagements in.the USA after his time in office elapsed. This all came to fruition.
The Tories and Labour let the dirty money stolen from the Russian people be laundered in London and buy up Belgravia square without batting an eyelid as well as buying up a shit London football team.
Just look when Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned in London. A signature murder of the Russian state and yet again Putin is on record of saying that Russian traitors will face their comeuppence.
Valdimir Putin is a man of his word.
Boris Johnson is a clown and May is a mediocre Prime Minister but maybe it will be best we don't get 100% proof it leads back to Putin because what would we do then ? Call them names ?
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
I thought Porton Down's Gary Aitkenhead statement was 100 percent reasonable.
His job is to identify the substance, not to enter the political arena. Unfortunately that job is left to the pantomime horse that is Boris Johnson. How many lies, cock ups and errors can a man make and keep in post? These old public school boys strut around, just like their fathers before them, in the total belief that they have the God given right to rule. Unfortunately if Boris can prove one thing it is the old boy network is alive and well and living in Westminster.
Yes very well put regarding Porton Downs, and a distinction I wanted to make. It's not that they said it WASN'T from the Russians (as I understand it), but rather THEY COULDN'T SAY BECAUSE IT'S NOT WITHIN THEIR REMIT.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think the Russians did it. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence, including their history, and handling nerve agent in this form, as I understand it, is not easy, let alone creating it.
But this is one if those things where publically demonstrable proof is incredibly important. I think it's wholly possible, if not likely, that there is intelligence, presumably including human sources, that point to the Russians on this, but that can't be made public. And it feels like when you get this wrong, you play in to Putin's hands. As I understand it, "the west" is to him what "the media" is to Donald Trump, an excuse for all and sundry. And by making bold proclamations that are then not immediately backed up by evidence, you give him the ability to say "this is all a conspiracy against Russia by the west." And whilst I suspect he'd do that anyway, this is such an own goal that makes it so much easier for him.
This is my understanding of the dynamics within Russian power at the moment, but they may be dated or just inaccurate. Would love to hear what others more knowledgeable on the subject think.
One more thing to tack on, to @soapboxsam 's point as to what can we do about this, call them names? Yes, there will probably be a fair amount of that. But I think there is a bigger picture here which involve things like sanctions and freezing bank accounts and seezing assets. Reading back what I wrote, I don't want to do that very American thing where I think all of our actions impact the citizens of other countries. I think the west is limited in what it can do directly to influence the Russian populous. But if this kind of stuff keeps happening, assassinations, meddling in elections, there will come a time when they need to be addressed head on. And the best way to do that is to provide a lengthy and verifiable body of evidence. This one thing is obviously terrible, but comparatively smaller than something like the WMD claim in the build up to the Iraq war. But not taking these kinds of things in isolation is really important.
Also, I don't know how you remove Putin from power, if you can. But I think one way to certainly cause some internal turmoil is to fuck off the oligarchs with sanctions. And that's something to be looked at in terms of large picture consequences for Russia, and something we would be considering here in the States under different circumstances.
I think you have pretty much nailed it there, @SDAddick , and the excellent article from @Super_Eddie_Youds above expands on it. That article is particularly good because it backs up what my wife was explaining to me earlier on this; the Russians always went in for this outrageous disinformation warfare, long before Putin, long before the modern use of 'troll' appeared.
You'd think then that our government might have learnt by now, but apparently MI6 took their eye off the Russian ball for years. And we have a complete clown as Foreign Secretary. I could only but agree with Sergei Lavrov when he described Johnson as "a child in a suit". The trouble is, he has not just damaged our argument with Russia over this, but he has threatened our reputation and standing with all our allies who went out on a limb to support us by kicking out Russians. Publicly they are standing firm, but privately they must be fuming at this latest example of our incompetence on the foreign stage. What more does that idiot have to do before he is removed from office?
I think you have pretty much nailed it there, @SDAddick , and the excellent article from @Super_Eddie_Youds above expands on it. That article is particularly good because it backs up what my wife was explaining to me earlier on this; the Russians always went in for this outrageous disinformation warfare, long before Putin, long before the modern use of 'troll' appeared.
You'd think then that our government might have learnt by now, but apparently MI6 took their eye off the Russian ball for years. And we have a complete clown as Foreign Secretary. I could only but agree with Sergei Lavrov when he described Johnson as "a child in a suit". The trouble is, he has not just damaged our argument with Russia over this, but he has threatened our reputation and standing with all our allies who went out on a limb to support us by kicking out Russians. Publicly they are standing firm, but privately they must be fuming at this latest example of our incompetence on the foreign stage. What more does that idiot have to do before he is removed from office?
Johnson, rightly, getting pelters in items on C4 News at present.
I think you have pretty much nailed it there, @SDAddick , and the excellent article from @Super_Eddie_Youds above expands on it. That article is particularly good because it backs up what my wife was explaining to me earlier on this; the Russians always went in for this outrageous disinformation warfare, long before Putin, long before the modern use of 'troll' appeared.
You'd think then that our government might have learnt by now, but apparently MI6 took their eye off the Russian ball for years. And we have a complete clown as Foreign Secretary. I could only but agree with Sergei Lavrov when he described Johnson as "a child in a suit". The trouble is, he has not just damaged our argument with Russia over this, but he has threatened our reputation and standing with all our allies who went out on a limb to support us by kicking out Russians. Publicly they are standing firm, but privately they must be fuming at this latest example of our incompetence on the foreign stage. What more does that idiot have to do before he is removed from office?
Quick on the disinformation thing, yes, exactly. What Trump does with calling everything that makes him look bad "fake news" and part of a conspiracy against him is basically an old KGB trick. I don't think there's any direct relationship there, as in I don't think Putin rang up Trump and said "have I got an idea for you," because that attitude long predates Trump as a political figure. But yeah, I'm guessing as your wife was saying far more eloquently and with better experience than I have, one of the ways the KGB sewed unrest, be int internal or in other countries, was to deem everyone not allied with them a conspirer against them.
'Playing with Fire' ! So they get Trump elected as President who tries to build ties with Moscow thus threatening the 'greatest ally' relationship between UK and USA, I wouldn't be so worried were it not for the clown in the White House. Worrying times indeed.
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
I thought Porton Down's Gary Aitkenhead statement was 100 percent reasonable.
His job is to identify the substance, not to enter the political arena. Unfortunately that job is left to the pantomime horse that is Boris Johnson. How many lies, cock ups and errors can a man make and keep in post? These old public school boys strut around, just like their fathers before them, in the total belief that they have the God given right to rule. Unfortunately if Boris can prove one thing it is the old boy network is alive and well and living in Westminster.
Spot on. His/their job was to identify the type of agent, that's it! An agent that is known to have Russian origins.
He simply said that he could not determine where it came from and who administered it. That's the job of the Intelligence services and Counter Terrorism branch as part of their investigation.
The statement from the head of Porton Down was perfectly reasonable and logical.
It was a gamble to go hard so early, and in someways it paid off, early, but now appears to be unravelling fast. Not only the fact that DSTL's announcement has handed Russia a PR win, but also that trump invited putin for a visit even as he was expelling diplomats.
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
And of course it was bound to unravel when the Foreign Secretary is a titanium grade idiot.. Today it has emerged he was gobbing off on German TV about what he claimed he had learned from the Porton Down people...
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
I thought Porton Down's Gary Aitkenhead statement was 100 percent reasonable.
His job is to identify the substance, not to enter the political arena. Unfortunately that job is left to the pantomime horse that is Boris Johnson. How many lies, cock ups and errors can a man make and keep in post? These old public school boys strut around, just like their fathers before them, in the total belief that they have the God given right to rule. Unfortunately if Boris can prove one thing it is the old boy network is alive and well and living in Westminster.
Spot on. His/their job was to identify the type of agent, that's it! An agent that is known to have Russian origins.
He simply said that he could not determine where it came from and who administered it. That's the job of the Intelligence services and Counter Terrorism branch as part of their investigation.
The statement from the head of Porton Down was perfectly reasonable and logical.
Yes it was, absolutely. The reason it’s given Russia a PR win is because BJ was intimating they knew absolutely it was from Russia.
I'm guessing the nerve agent is various chemicals mixed in proportions that need not be definitive to work. I'd further guess that they have a russian sample on file and the proportions aren't identical so they can't confirm the source.
I'm guessing the nerve agent is various chemicals mixed in proportions that need not be definitive to work. I'd further guess that they have a russian sample on file and the proportions aren't identical so they can't confirm the source.
That's a good question. I believe there are international organizations and/or watchdog groups (as well as intelligence service presumably) who keep samples on file, but I don't know if they have samples of nerve agents from every lab in every country over the last forty years or however long it lasts. And as you say there may be alterations in the formula.
The way I kind of assumed they could test for a "fingerprint" was by testing the underlying substances that make up the compound, but that may be either difficult to do, or more likely difficult to know where those chemicals originated.
I'm curious about this, I'm going to look into it.
Sergei Skripal now recovering too. The gobby cousin Viktoria refused a visa to visit. It gets more interesting. Someone in the FSB is likely to be demoted soon ( such demotion can be terminal).
if only Johnson could be terminally demoted. I am sure this will be the first time I say "right on the money" about anything that comes from Sergei Lavrov, but he absolutely nailed it when he described Johnson as " a child in a suit" .
Yulia Skripal signed the declaration she read out, on camera, so that the St Petersburg machine and RT could not "question more" about whether it was genuine.
So it was all a misunderstanding, Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov were sightseeing and the reason they only stayed in Salisbury for one hour on the Saturday was it was slushy underfoot. So they got the train back to London and went back to Sailsbury the following day where they were seen on cctv near the home of Sergei and Yulia Skripal at 11.58. At 13.58 they are seen at Salisbury station after alledging they visited Salisbury cathedral and Old Sarum.
That evening after being in England for 48hours they flew back to Moscow from Heathrow.
The question is ?
A. Are they two boring blokes who like a wet weekend.
B. They work for the Russian military intelligence service, GRU.
Comments
People that should know better used this as a stick with which to beat Corbyn (who now looks to have been right, but he won't get any credit) as they sniffed the chance to nobble him with another 'gaffe'. I believe this is called by some on here playing the man not the ball. Of course before the increasing number of usual suspects dive in here, i am not a Corbyn supporter.
Russia did this, maybe Putin ordered it, maybe not, but Russian state actors carried it out. By not waiting for proof and irrefutable evidence, they have got their win and taken another chip out of the stability of this country. That no one had the foresight to see the potential issues around pinning it on them with no publicly available evidence will doubtless now be overshadowed by another escalation in tensions...i wonder how many allies will dive in with us this time around.
However, the government’s position is being undermined by an interview the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, gave to Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster.
Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
And yet he is an MP that many people of his constituency voted into the house, and then was given a job in the cabinet, we are a comedy country.
I'm sure countries really feel they need our support these days.
His job is to identify the substance, not to enter the political arena. Unfortunately that job is left to the pantomime horse that is Boris Johnson. How many lies, cock ups and errors can a man make and keep in post? These old public school boys strut around, just like their fathers before them, in the total belief that they have the God given right to rule. Unfortunately if Boris can prove one thing it is the old boy network is alive and well and living in Westminster.
Father and daughter are still alive because even the cold blooded Russians don't feel it's a good idea to kill the first responders who would attend to the stricken couple. As it is the Policeman was/ is poorly.
The Russians and Putin exist on a different level. Even when the Russian ultras attacked English fans at the last tournament instead of condemning the violence, The Russian government spokesman said "well done boys".
If only her passport had been blue....
When even the Marxist John McDonnell believes the Russians are behind it you do have to wonder ?
Agree over WMD. I believe Blair was thinking more of brown nosing the Americans and the lucrative book and speaking engagements in.the USA after his time in office elapsed.
This all came to fruition.
The Tories and Labour let the dirty money stolen from the Russian people be laundered in London and buy up Belgravia square without batting an eyelid as well as buying up a shit London football team.
Just look when Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned in London. A signature murder of the Russian state and yet again Putin is on record of saying that Russian traitors will face their comeuppence.
Valdimir Putin is a man of his word.
Boris Johnson is a clown and May is a mediocre Prime Minister but maybe it will be best we don't get 100% proof it leads back to Putin because what would we do then ?
Call them names ?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/04/skripal-poisoning-deleted-foreign-office-tweet-leads-to-awkward-questions
http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2018/04/how-deal-russian-information-warfare-ask-sweden/147154/?oref=d-channelriver
I don't think it's unreasonable to think the Russians did it. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence, including their history, and handling nerve agent in this form, as I understand it, is not easy, let alone creating it.
But this is one if those things where publically demonstrable proof is incredibly important. I think it's wholly possible, if not likely, that there is intelligence, presumably including human sources, that point to the Russians on this, but that can't be made public. And it feels like when you get this wrong, you play in to Putin's hands. As I understand it, "the west" is to him what "the media" is to Donald Trump, an excuse for all and sundry. And by making bold proclamations that are then not immediately backed up by evidence, you give him the ability to say "this is all a conspiracy against Russia by the west." And whilst I suspect he'd do that anyway, this is such an own goal that makes it so much easier for him.
This is my understanding of the dynamics within Russian power at the moment, but they may be dated or just inaccurate. Would love to hear what others more knowledgeable on the subject think.
One more thing to tack on, to @soapboxsam 's point as to what can we do about this, call them names? Yes, there will probably be a fair amount of that. But I think there is a bigger picture here which involve things like sanctions and freezing bank accounts and seezing assets. Reading back what I wrote, I don't want to do that very American thing where I think all of our actions impact the citizens of other countries. I think the west is limited in what it can do directly to influence the Russian populous. But if this kind of stuff keeps happening, assassinations, meddling in elections, there will come a time when they need to be addressed head on. And the best way to do that is to provide a lengthy and verifiable body of evidence. This one thing is obviously terrible, but comparatively smaller than something like the WMD claim in the build up to the Iraq war. But not taking these kinds of things in isolation is really important.
Also, I don't know how you remove Putin from power, if you can. But I think one way to certainly cause some internal turmoil is to fuck off the oligarchs with sanctions. And that's something to be looked at in terms of large picture consequences for Russia, and something we would be considering here in the States under different circumstances.
You'd think then that our government might have learnt by now, but apparently MI6 took their eye off the Russian ball for years. And we have a complete clown as Foreign Secretary. I could only but agree with Sergei Lavrov when he described Johnson as "a child in a suit". The trouble is, he has not just damaged our argument with Russia over this, but he has threatened our reputation and standing with all our allies who went out on a limb to support us by kicking out Russians. Publicly they are standing firm, but privately they must be fuming at this latest example of our incompetence on the foreign stage. What more does that idiot have to do before he is removed from office?
He simply said that he could not determine where it came from and who administered it. That's the job of the Intelligence services and Counter Terrorism branch as part of their investigation.
The statement from the head of Porton Down was perfectly reasonable and logical.
The way I kind of assumed they could test for a "fingerprint" was by testing the underlying substances that make up the compound, but that may be either difficult to do, or more likely difficult to know where those chemicals originated.
I'm curious about this, I'm going to look into it.
if only Johnson could be terminally demoted. I am sure this will be the first time I say "right on the money" about anything that comes from Sergei Lavrov, but he absolutely nailed it when he described Johnson as " a child in a suit" .
Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov were sightseeing and the reason they only stayed in Salisbury for one hour on the Saturday was it was slushy underfoot.
So they got the train back to London and went back to Sailsbury the following day where they were seen on cctv near the home of Sergei and Yulia Skripal at 11.58.
At 13.58 they are seen at Salisbury station after alledging they visited Salisbury cathedral and Old Sarum.
That evening after being in England for 48hours they flew back to Moscow from Heathrow.
The question is ?
A. Are they two boring blokes who like a wet weekend.
B. They work for the Russian military intelligence service, GRU.