Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
The setting up of an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
The setting up of an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
And what actions would they take to eliminate all horse deaths (racing or otherwise - private ownership leads to deaths as well)?
Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
The setting up of an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
And what actions would they take to eliminate all horse deaths (racing or otherwise - private ownership leads to deaths as well)?
Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
The setting up of an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
And what actions would they take to eliminate all horse deaths (racing or otherwise - private ownership leads to deaths as well)?
Isn't that up to them?
I was asking Chizz a question - bit like he always asks questions. He now seems the expert on this and the petition asks for the elimination of ALL horse deaths. I was just interested to gain an understanding of what he might consider the actions that could be taken.
Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
The setting up of an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
And what actions would they take to eliminate all horse deaths (racing or otherwise - private ownership leads to deaths as well)?
Obviously the independent regulatory body would study all the available evidence and, if they decided, hold a judge-led enquiry with powers to compel witnesses to attend. They would publish an initial summary of findings and publish it for public consultation. Then they would set out recommendations for the industry to adopt or for Parliament to legislate on.
None of us knows what the recommendations should be until the enquiry and consultation are complete. We're only interested amateurs. We don't know. And the guesses we have made so far have not reduced deaths sufficiently. That's why it would be best to come up with an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
The setting up of an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
And what actions would they take to eliminate all horse deaths (racing or otherwise - private ownership leads to deaths as well)?
Obviously the independent regulatory body would study all the available evidence and, if they decided, hold a judge-led enquiry with powers to compel witnesses to attend. They would publish an initial summary of findings and publish it for public consultation. Then they would set out recommendations for the industry to adopt or for Parliament to legislate on.
None of us knows what the recommendations should be until the enquiry and consultation are complete. We're only interested amateurs. We don't know. And the guesses we have made so far have not reduced deaths sufficiently. That's why it would be best to come up with an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
The only possible recommendation that could be made to eliminate deaths of horses would be to ban horse racing. You know that, I know that - let's not try to kid ourselves that any other outcome would be acceptable to the anti-horse racing lobby backing the petition.
I can confidently predict that a ban on horse racing will not happen in my lifetime.
Edit: I would also add that you may be an amateur but I have worked in the general industry for 37 years - not just with bookmakers, I've also done work for the BHB/BHA, The Jockey Club, the British Horse Racing School and so on. I've also been an owner. All that can be done is being done - nobody wants to see horses or jockeys die without taken all reasonable actions to minimise (as I said it can never be eliminated) deaths in racing.
Think it’s time that this sinks away from the top of the forum.
Respect the right for people to raise these concerns despite the fact it’s for most of us a nagging irritant that annually accompanies what should be a festival of sporting enjoyment. It’s a bit like someone whispering in your ear the symptoms of gonorrhoea whilst you are on the job.
Despite this, I think everyone has contributed in a respectful way but I can’t see what more can be achieved on this thread and the likelihood is it will just go round in circles.
Think it’s time that this sinks away from the top of the forum.
Respect the right for people to raise these concerns despite the fact it’s for most of us a nagging irritant that annually accompanies what should be a festival of sporting enjoyment. It’s a bit like someone whispering in your ear the symptoms of gonorrhoea whilst you are on the job.
Despite this, I think everyone has contributed in a respectful way but I can’t see what more can be achieved on this thread and the likelihood is it will just go round in circles.
I would agree with that - it's been respectful but agreement will never be reached.
Apparently. Is that too many for you? Too few? About right?
Too many and it’s a concern, and reducing.
If the OP had his way no horses, period, would be bred in captivity. Ignoring the fact they were domesticated thousands of years ago, he wants all human control to be stopped. So that’s the end of equine vets then. Let them roam free, re-introduce predators to prey on them so we can restore the natural order. No medical intervention whatsoever.
Yes stupid observations, but on this subject I have some knowledge. I love horse racing and I love horses, thoroughbreds or otherwise. Unlike you who doesn’t like horse racing and doen’t like horses - but that doesn’t stop you pontificating. The more people interested in working with the racing industry on this issue the better, which is why I signed the petition. Working with, not against - and on reflection I would withdraw my signature if I could as the agenda is pretty clear.
Maybe stick to the Brexit thread.
I agree with you that there should be fewer horse deaths and that it's concerning. And, like you, I signed the petition. And also - I assume - like you, I wouldn't support a ban, if it could be shown that a ban isn't necessary to bring the number of deaths down significantly.
I also think that bringing in an independent body, authorised by Parliament, with an edict to do whatever is necessary to reduce deaths, would be a positive step.
However, thanks for pontificating on which threads you'd be happy for me to "stick to".
Never assume, Chizzy - I would not support a ban, period.
So, if it got to a stage where it would be demonstrable that the *only* way to prevent horse deaths and, for the sake of argument, injuries to jockeys, would be to ban National Hunt racing, you wouldn't support that?
There is no way whatsoever that horse deaths can be eliminated completely. Progress is being made but some deaths are inevitable, the same as horses in the wild die when running and jumping. So no I wouldn't support a ban.
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
The setting up of an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
And what actions would they take to eliminate all horse deaths (racing or otherwise - private ownership leads to deaths as well)?
Obviously the independent regulatory body would study all the available evidence and, if they decided, hold a judge-led enquiry with powers to compel witnesses to attend. They would publish an initial summary of findings and publish it for public consultation. Then they would set out recommendations for the industry to adopt or for Parliament to legislate on.
None of us knows what the recommendations should be until the enquiry and consultation are complete. We're only interested amateurs. We don't know. And the guesses we have made so far have not reduced deaths sufficiently. That's why it would be best to come up with an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
The only possible recommendation that could be made to eliminate deaths of horses would be to ban horse racing. You know that, I know that - let's not try to kid ourselves that any other outcome would be acceptable to the anti-horse racing lobby backing the petition.
I can confidently predict that a ban on horse racing will not happen in my lifetime.
Edit: I would also add that you may be an amateur but I have worked in the general industry for 37 years - not just with bookmakers, I've also done work for the BHB/BHA, The Jockey Club, the British Horse Racing School and so on. All that can be done is being done - nobody wants to see horses or jockeys die without taken all reasonable actions to minimise (as I said it can never be eliminated) deaths in racing.
Some great reasons why an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest would be an ideal method of determining the best way forward. Not least because it wouldn't be influenced by people with a vested interested in the industry. Or by people sure of its conclusions before its studies have been completed. Or, in fact, started.
Surely the answer is to take a statistically significant number of horses and let then roam free in their natural habitats. Then after a year collate the number of deaths and the suffering experienced by those unfortunate horses.
If it is found that the number of natural deaths and suffering is similar or more than that recorded for racehorses then it is hard to see what case the racing industry would have to answer as the outcome for a horse could be statistically proved to be better or worse for a race horse compared to a wild horse.
As mentioned above (I think), the majority of horse deaths are due to paddock related incidents, so you'd expect to see similar numbers in the wild with the obvious caveat that a horse that falls in a field in the wild will suffer a lot more before it does that a horse who falls in a paddock.
The only way to achieve zero horse deaths is to have zero horses.
I think the argument that horses don't enjoy racing falls down a bit when you see a horse that loses it's jockey continue to run the course as part of the pack, jumping every fence.
Another thing I must point out is that one of your horses listed above passed away at a flat racing track rather than over the jumps (at Chelmsford). It appears to have been a freak accident that could've happened anywhere at any time but because it was on a racecourse, it's convenient to add to your list. Similar to Sandsend to an extent.
Would you have flat racing banned as well as jumps racing? How far would you go?
I hate seeing horses, or any animals, in pain and I considered signing but after the facts being presented above, I am satisfied that the current rate of deaths is decreasing and continues to decrease due to actions taken by the current regulatory authorities.
If I had my way, I'd stop the lot, Callum. I'm opposing this collectively, and there are lots of people who side with me, so we shall see what happens.
'Bigger cages, Longer chains' does not sit well with me.
200 deaths is better that 250, and 5 is better than 10. And, best of all, is zero.
Yes, a horse that has broken its leg when running (which had nothing to do with the jockey using the whip and, as stated when this fatality occurred, could have just as easily happened in its paddock at home) is very distressing indeed. However, what this demonstrates principally is that, ignoring AFKA's request that this thread winds down, since everything that could be said on the matter has been said, you once again seek to manipulate people's emotion's (no one in their right mind would fail to be upset by such images, certainly no racing enthusiast) to support your attempts to have them sign a disingenuous petition. It's very sad and upsetting but horrible accidents and fatalities happen in all walks of life and, as has been said repeatedly, to put an end to a fraction of fatal accidents for racehorses (since most occur at home), you would put an end to NH racing and the sheer existence of any steeplechaser from now to eternity. Happily you won't succeed.
...and here's the response from a credible, responsible organisation which places animal welfare as it's number one priority in the context of the real world, the RSPCA:
"These fatalities are extremely concerning and it is essential that the announced review by the racing industry must be completely comprehensive to reduce the likelihood of such tragedies occurring again.
"The review should be inclusive of horse welfare organisations and for the benefit of the horses it is essential that we continue to work with the regulatory body giving our full support to their review.
"A review was carried out at Aintree in 2012 which has since reduced horse falls, injuries and fatalities.
"We also believe the use of the whip and the term encouragement needs to be clearly defined, and our view is that the whip should only be used for safety and correction."
Comments
What do you think should be done to eliminate horse deaths?
No resolution is a push with all stakes refunded - very much the obvious outcome.
None of us knows what the recommendations should be until the enquiry and consultation are complete. We're only interested amateurs. We don't know. And the guesses we have made so far have not reduced deaths sufficiently. That's why it would be best to come up with an independent regulatory body, with horse welfare as its only interest.
I can confidently predict that a ban on horse racing will not happen in my lifetime.
Edit: I would also add that you may be an amateur but I have worked in the general industry for 37 years - not just with bookmakers, I've also done work for the BHB/BHA, The Jockey Club, the British Horse Racing School and so on. I've also been an owner. All that can be done is being done - nobody wants to see horses or jockeys die without taken all reasonable actions to minimise (as I said it can never be eliminated) deaths in racing.
Respect the right for people to raise these concerns despite the fact it’s for most of us a nagging irritant that annually accompanies what should be a festival of sporting enjoyment. It’s a bit like someone whispering in your ear the symptoms of gonorrhoea whilst you are on the job.
Despite this, I think everyone has contributed in a respectful way but I can’t see what more can be achieved on this thread and the likelihood is it will just go round in circles.
Does this mean I get my score refunded?
If it is found that the number of natural deaths and suffering is similar or more than that recorded for racehorses then it is hard to see what case the racing industry would have to answer as the outcome for a horse could be statistically proved to be better or worse for a race horse compared to a wild horse.
As mentioned above (I think), the majority of horse deaths are due to paddock related incidents, so you'd expect to see similar numbers in the wild with the obvious caveat that a horse that falls in a field in the wild will suffer a lot more before it does that a horse who falls in a paddock.
The only way to achieve zero horse deaths is to have zero horses.
@redundantpetition
Another thing I must point out is that one of your horses listed above passed away at a flat racing track rather than over the jumps (at Chelmsford). It appears to have been a freak accident that could've happened anywhere at any time but because it was on a racecourse, it's convenient to add to your list. Similar to Sandsend to an extent.
Would you have flat racing banned as well as jumps racing? How far would you go?
I hate seeing horses, or any animals, in pain and I considered signing but after the facts being presented above, I am satisfied that the current rate of deaths is decreasing and continues to decrease due to actions taken by the current regulatory authorities.
However, what this demonstrates principally is that, ignoring AFKA's request that this thread winds down, since everything that could be said on the matter has been said, you once again seek to manipulate people's emotion's (no one in their right mind would fail to be upset by such images, certainly no racing enthusiast) to support your attempts to have them sign a disingenuous petition.
It's very sad and upsetting but horrible accidents and fatalities happen in all walks of life and, as has been said repeatedly, to put an end to a fraction of fatal accidents for racehorses (since most occur at home), you would put an end to NH racing and the sheer existence of any steeplechaser from now to eternity.
Happily you won't succeed.
"These fatalities are extremely concerning and it is essential that the announced review by the racing industry must be completely comprehensive to reduce the likelihood of such tragedies occurring again.
"The review should be inclusive of horse welfare organisations and for the benefit of the horses it is essential that we continue to work with the regulatory body giving our full support to their review.
"A review was carried out at Aintree in 2012 which has since reduced horse falls, injuries and fatalities.
"We also believe the use of the whip and the term encouragement needs to be clearly defined, and our view is that the whip should only be used for safety and correction."
Spot on.