This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
Mmmmmmm.......As a kid back in the 50’ s and early 60’s the crowds were always noticeably smaller for the first couple of games of the season because of family holidays......you could see it as plain as day. I can’t see that it should be any different now from then, so despite your well respected views and knowledge on the subject I have to say it’s ‘not’ a total myth, despite your claims of other fans attending who might not otherwise, which I don’t quite get. They are on holiday so they will go to a football match....or more bizarrely because the sun’s shining..........I just can’t see it Rick? I would say the shortfall of bums on seats might be as much as 5% or so across the entire country.
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
Mmmmmmm.......As a kid back in the 50’ s and early 60’s the crowds were always noticeably smaller for the first couple of games of the season because of family holidays......you could see it as plain as day. I can’t see that it should be any different now from then, so despite your well respected views and knowledge on the subject I have to say it’s ‘not’ a total myth, despite your claims of other fans attending who might not otherwise, which I don’t quite get. They are on holiday so they will go to a football match....or more bizarrely because the sun’s shining..........I just can’t see it Rick? I would say the shortfall of bums on seats might be as much as 5% or so across the entire country.
Well, for a start nobody played in the first half of August in the 1950s and 1960s - the season typically started on the third Saturday - and secondly there were so few season tickets then that any shortfall would be transparent in the actual attendance. But I’m not talking about 50 years ago.
if you look at 15/16, our last season in the Championship, the highest official home support all season was on August 8th for QPR.
I’d suggest what’s changed is that people have other things to do all year round now, not just in the traditional holiday month, and the percentage of season tickets in the crowd figure is also much higher overall. A consequence is that there is always a minimum 10 per cent absentee rate, whatever the time of year, and for some games that climbs to 20 per cent. It’s much more understandable if you consider that U11 STs, for example, are £50.
Put simply if the club had 11,000 STs and comps yesterday (notionally, since 1,000 plus will indeed have been missing), there were 4,500 home sales. Unless there are a lot of bulk comps or price offers at a particular game, that figure will be lower on average across the season - in other words it is higher in August. People who buy match tickets turn out at 99 per cent.
If we started to average 5,000 home ticket sales that would be a departure from the pattern of every season back to 1998. My only point is that the idea that - all things being equal - home crowds will be bigger once August is done is not a valid assumption.
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
Mmmmmmm.......As a kid back in the 50’ s and early 60’s the crowds were always noticeably smaller for the first couple of games of the season because of family holidays......you could see it as plain as day. I can’t see that it should be any different now from then, so despite your well respected views and knowledge on the subject I have to say it’s ‘not’ a total myth, despite your claims of other fans attending who might not otherwise, which I don’t quite get. They are on holiday so they will go to a football match....or more bizarrely because the sun’s shining..........I just can’t see it Rick? I would say the shortfall of bums on seats might be as much as 5% or so across the entire country.
Well, for a start nobody played in the first half of August in the 1950s and 1960s - the season typically started on the third Saturday - and secondly there were so few season tickets then that any shortfall would be transparent in the actual attendance. But I’m not talking about 50 years ago.
if you look at 15/16, our last season in the Championship, the highest official home support all season was on August 8th for QPR.
I’d suggest what’s changed is that people have other things to do all year round now, not just in the traditional holiday month, and the percentage of season tickets in the crowd figure is also much higher overall. A consequence is that there is always a minimum 10 per cent absentee rate, whatever the time of year, and for some games that climbs to 20 per cent. It’s much more understandable if you consider that U11 STs, for example, are £50.
Put simply if the club had 11,000 STs and comps yesterday (notionally, since 1,000 plus will indeed have been missing), there were 4,500 home sales. Unless there are a lot of bulk comps or price offers at a particular game, that figure will be lower on average across the season - in other words it is higher in August. People who buy match tickets turn out at 99 per cent.
If we started to average 5,000 home ticket sales that would be a departure from the pattern of every season back to 1998. My only point is that the idea that - all things being equal - home crowds will be bigger once August is done is not a valid assumption.
Wow....”If you can’t beat ‘em with science then baffle ‘em with bullshit”....as the old saying goes. There’s no flies on you Rick. LOL mate
Just out of interest would the ticket office sell tickets in the blacked out areas (end of east and west) if there was unexpected/high number of walk ups at a particular game. Obviously not against the likes of Leeds and Millwall.
Just out of interest would the ticket office sell tickets in the blacked out areas (end of east and west) if there was unexpected/high number of walk ups at a particular game. Obviously not against the likes of Leeds and Millwall.
Don’t see that as an issue - they would do it (as with the play-off) but it’s unlikely to arise unexpectedly on the day. The block closures are pointless anyway and should be scrapped.
It was a struggle to get to the ground yesterday from West London, re winds/train disruption so I would guess we lost a few hundred fans in the more isolated places.
Just out of interest would the ticket office sell tickets in the blacked out areas (end of east and west) if there was unexpected/high number of walk ups at a particular game. Obviously not against the likes of Leeds and Millwall.
Don’t see that as an issue - they would do it (as with the play-off) but it’s unlikely to arise unexpectedly on the day. The block closures are pointless anyway and should be scrapped.
I agree it's a pointless closure in both stands but also is there any point to re-opening them now? the East would just look even more emptier if the East fans were more spread out.
Also remaining closed gives us the option to house an overspill of away fans if demand was there like Portsmouth two seasons ago. You re-open the closed East blocks and you lose that option. Unless you open them but don't sell season tickets in those blocks.
Just out of interest would the ticket office sell tickets in the blacked out areas (end of east and west) if there was unexpected/high number of walk ups at a particular game. Obviously not against the likes of Leeds and Millwall.
Don’t see that as an issue - they would do it (as with the play-off) but it’s unlikely to arise unexpectedly on the day. The block closures are pointless anyway and should be scrapped.
I agree it's a pointless closure in both stands but also is there any point to re-opening them now? the East would just look even more emptier if the East fans were more spread out.
Also remaining closed gives us the option to house an overspill of away fans if demand was there like Portsmouth two seasons ago. You re-open the closed East blocks and you lose that option. Unless you open them but don't sell season tickets in those blocks.
In practice the police are not going to allow Charlton to accommodate the teams likely to bring more than 3,400 (Millwall, Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield Wendy), and neither should the club be doing it.
Not a bad attendance yesterday for first home game if the season . Holiday season definitely has an impact on size of the crowd . There are more social events this time of year , weddings etc. It is also peak BBQ season . Unfortunately, not enough fans see Charlton as their number one priority in life . Crowds will pick up if we continue to play well anyway .
anyone know why the last two rows of north upper were closed?
Roland’s having a home cinema room built with en-suite bidet and walk-in shower & bath tub. Should be ready for his visit for the Forest game, he’s hoping to see Tony Watt do his stuff at the corner flag (opera glasses installed in anticipation)
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
As much as i respect you probably have stats and data i dont have, i dont think its a myth. I myself miss plenty of games in Aug due to hols and i know many regulars are the same. No way do random school holiday fans turning up on the day make up the deficit in my opinion.
West was very sparse, towards the away end. Family was half-empty despite being virtually sold out. NWQ was about a third full. Upper and lower pretty good 85% ? Can’t see east, seemed busy but 20% of it closed.
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
As much as i respect you probably have stats and data i dont have, i dont think its a myth. I myself miss plenty of games in Aug due to hols and i know many regulars are the same. No way do random school holiday fans turning up on the day make up the deficit in my opinion.
But if you and they have a season ticket you are counted as being thete regardless.
The point Airman was making wasn't that people don't miss games in August but that some people (10%) miss all games.
Not all the same people, obviously but it evens itself out and so means early games don't have a significantly smaller attendance.
This is one of the great myths that gets regurgitated every year. There is no statistical evidence crowds are adversely affected in August - for every person that’s away there’s another that only comes because it’s the school holiday and (mostly!) better weather.
As much as i respect you probably have stats and data i dont have, i dont think its a myth. I myself miss plenty of games in Aug due to hols and i know many regulars are the same. No way do random school holiday fans turning up on the day make up the deficit in my opinion.
But if you and they have a season ticket you are counted as being thete regardless.
The point Airman was making wasn't that people don't miss games in August but that some people (10%) miss all games.
Not all the same people, obviously but it evens itself out and so means early games don't have a significantly smaller attendance.
Surely its a fact that many regulars and season ticket holders do not attend in August. I know for a fact i have hardly been to many games in Aug due to hols and that is the same for most people i know. Why is it anectdotal when myself and other are saying it happens? Not wanting to bore people or argue but i am confused by the so called data evidence
Surely its a fact that many regulars and season ticket holders do not attend in August. I know for a fact i have hardly been to many games in Aug due to hols and that is the same for most people i know. Why is it anectdotal when myself and other are saying it happens? Not wanting to bore people or argue but i am confused by the so called data evidence
The data evidence is the official attendance. We know that the club doesn’t have much more than 10,000 season-ticket holders and that there are about 500 comps that are always issued. We know the away number.
If you subtract the known figures from the official attendance you get about 4,500 home sales - in fact there were about 1,500 sales on the day.
That is a larger number than is usually sold and historically 4,500 is a very large number for Charlton, especially in the Championship. Three thousand is pretty much par.
So even if there were, say, 2000 season ticket holders missing and counted (which is one in five), that was offset by extra match ticket sales. And there are always 10 per cent or 1,000 missing, usually more. So the idea that it being August meant a lower actual (or announced) crowd is not correct.
The missing season ticket holders made no difference to the official crowd because they are counted anyway and the extra ticket sales - due to weather, opportunity and new season enthusiasm - offset the ST absentees in the actual crowd.
The attendances are generally very predictable if you understand how they are built up. I hope we continue to win, but that was a good crowd, considering we were struggling to get 9,000 officially (and 8,000 in reality) a year ago. It would not have been bigger in September.
There has been a lot of discussion amongst friends of mine about Duchalet's strategy, yes I know he's Barking, but with the current price structure and Bowyer's feel good factor is he possibly being advised to to maximise potential crowd increases to make a small profit. I do remember Airman suggesting that would be possible with an attendance average of 22000 and I think yesterday's attendance was quite high considering there is still an active boycott.
Surely its a fact that many regulars and season ticket holders do not attend in August. I know for a fact i have hardly been to many games in Aug due to hols and that is the same for most people i know. Why is it anectdotal when myself and other are saying it happens? Not wanting to bore people or argue but i am confused by the so called data evidence
The data evidence is the official attendance. We know that the club doesn’t have much more than 10,000 season-ticket holders and that there are about 500 comps that are always issued. We know the away number.
If you subtract the known figures from the official attendance you get about 4,500 home sales - in fact there were about 1,500 sales on the day.
That is a larger number than is usually sold and historically 4,500 is a very large number for Charlton, especially in the Championship. Three thousand is pretty much par.
So even if there were, say, 2000 season ticket holders missing and counted (which is one in five), that was offset by extra match ticket sales. And there are always 10 per cent or 1,000 missing, usually more. So the idea that it being August meant a lower actual (or announced) crowd is not correct.
The missing season ticket holders made no difference to the official crowd because they are counted anyway and the extra ticket sales - due to weather, opportunity and new season enthusiasm - offset the ST absentees in the actual crowd.
The attendances are generally very predictable if you understand how they are built up. I hope we continue to win, but that was a good crowd, considering we were struggling to get 9,000 officially (and 8,000 in reality) a year ago. It would not have been bigger in September.
Thanks,i think i understand that. Just think it is hard to tell this season as Bowyer and his team have got people buzzing. I dont remember the last opening home game with an atmosphere like yesterday. You said yourself the data is based on official attendance, i seem to remember a lot of people disagreeing with official attendances posted after matches.
Surely its a fact that many regulars and season ticket holders do not attend in August. I know for a fact i have hardly been to many games in Aug due to hols and that is the same for most people i know. Why is it anectdotal when myself and other are saying it happens? Not wanting to bore people or argue but i am confused by the so called data evidence
The data evidence is the official attendance. We know that the club doesn’t have much more than 10,000 season-ticket holders and that there are about 500 comps that are always issued. We know the away number.
If you subtract the known figures from the official attendance you get about 4,500 home sales - in fact there were about 1,500 sales on the day.
That is a larger number than is usually sold and historically 4,500 is a very large number for Charlton, especially in the Championship. Three thousand is pretty much par.
So even if there were, say, 2000 season ticket holders missing and counted (which is one in five), that was offset by extra match ticket sales. And there are always 10 per cent or 1,000 missing, usually more. So the idea that it being August meant a lower actual (or announced) crowd is not correct.
The missing season ticket holders made no difference to the official crowd because they are counted anyway and the extra ticket sales - due to weather, opportunity and new season enthusiasm - offset the ST absentees in the actual crowd.
The attendances are generally very predictable if you understand how they are built up. I hope we continue to win, but that was a good crowd, considering we were struggling to get 9,000 officially (and 8,000 in reality) a year ago. It would not have been bigger in September.
Thanks,i think i understand that. Just think it is hard to tell this season as Bowyer and his team have got people buzzing. I dont remember the last opening home game with an atmosphere like yesterday. You said yourself the data is based on official attendance, i seem to remember a lot of people disagreeing with official attendances posted after matches.
And rightly so! Because the official attendances are often inaccurate, including yesterday, because they include all STHs, even those who didn’t turn up. Airman has acknowledged that though, and it doesn’t change the clear point he makes about crowds in August! It’s very simple.
Surely its a fact that many regulars and season ticket holders do not attend in August. I know for a fact i have hardly been to many games in Aug due to hols and that is the same for most people i know. Why is it anectdotal when myself and other are saying it happens? Not wanting to bore people or argue but i am confused by the so called data evidence
The data evidence is the official attendance. We know that the club doesn’t have much more than 10,000 season-ticket holders and that there are about 500 comps that are always issued. We know the away number.
If you subtract the known figures from the official attendance you get about 4,500 home sales - in fact there were about 1,500 sales on the day.
That is a larger number than is usually sold and historically 4,500 is a very large number for Charlton, especially in the Championship. Three thousand is pretty much par.
So even if there were, say, 2000 season ticket holders missing and counted (which is one in five), that was offset by extra match ticket sales. And there are always 10 per cent or 1,000 missing, usually more. So the idea that it being August meant a lower actual (or announced) crowd is not correct.
The missing season ticket holders made no difference to the official crowd because they are counted anyway and the extra ticket sales - due to weather, opportunity and new season enthusiasm - offset the ST absentees in the actual crowd.
The attendances are generally very predictable if you understand how they are built up. I hope we continue to win, but that was a good crowd, considering we were struggling to get 9,000 officially (and 8,000 in reality) a year ago. It would not have been bigger in September.
Thanks,i think i understand that. Just think it is hard to tell this season as Bowyer and his team have got people buzzing. I dont remember the last opening home game with an atmosphere like yesterday. You said yourself the data is based on official attendance, i seem to remember a lot of people disagreeing with official attendances posted after matches.
And rightly so! Because the official attendances are often inaccurate, including yesterday, because they include all STHs, even those who didn’t turn up. Airman has acknowledged that though, and it doesn’t change the clear point he makes about crowds in August! It’s very simple.
There has been a lot of discussion amongst friends of mine about Duchalet's strategy, yes I know he's Barking, but with the current price structure and Bowyer's feel good factor is he possibly being advised to to maximise potential crowd increases to make a small profit. I do remember Airman suggesting that would be possible with an attendance average of 22000 and I think yesterday's attendance was quite high considering there is still an active boycott.
Higher prices don’t necessarily increase revenue and I doubt if Duchatelet pays them much attention, if I’m honest. We’re talking about a marginal difference in revenue next to player sales anyway.
Thanks Airman, but could he break even or indeed make a small profit without player sales? The reason I ask is that throughout his time and through all his lies and inconsistencies one thing has remained consistent, that believes he is right and his latest rant about every championship club losing £15 Mill fits that pattern. A scary thought would be if did manage that zero loss situation Jim White would give him his own show so he could tell everyone how he did it.
Comments
I can’t see that it should be any different now from then, so despite your well respected views and knowledge on the subject I have to say it’s ‘not’ a total myth, despite your claims of other fans attending who might not otherwise, which I don’t quite get. They are on holiday so they will go to a football match....or more bizarrely because the sun’s shining..........I just can’t see it Rick?
I would say the shortfall of bums on seats might be as much as 5% or so across the entire country.
Seriously? Not even disabled?
if you look at 15/16, our last season in the Championship, the highest official home support all season was on August 8th for QPR.
I’d suggest what’s changed is that people have other things to do all year round now, not just in the traditional holiday month, and the percentage of season tickets in the crowd figure is also much higher overall. A consequence is that there is always a minimum 10 per cent absentee rate, whatever the time of year, and for some games that climbs to 20 per cent. It’s much more understandable if you consider that U11 STs, for example, are £50.
Put simply if the club had 11,000 STs and comps yesterday (notionally, since 1,000 plus will indeed have been missing), there were 4,500 home sales. Unless there are a lot of bulk comps or price offers at a particular game, that figure will be lower on average across the season - in other words it is higher in August. People who buy match tickets turn out at 99 per cent.
If we started to average 5,000 home ticket sales that would be a departure from the pattern of every season back to 1998. My only point is that the idea that - all things being equal - home crowds will be bigger once August is done is not a valid assumption.
There’s no flies on you Rick. LOL mate
Also remaining closed gives us the option to house an overspill of away fans if demand was there like Portsmouth two seasons ago. You re-open the closed East blocks and you lose that option. Unless you open them but don't sell season tickets in those blocks.
The point Airman was making wasn't that people don't miss games in August but that some people (10%) miss all games.
Not all the same people, obviously but it evens itself out and so means early games don't have a significantly smaller attendance.
You are arguing anecdotal evidence v data.
Not wanting to bore people or argue but i am confused by the so called data evidence
If you subtract the known figures from the official attendance you get about 4,500 home sales - in fact there were about 1,500 sales on the day.
That is a larger number than is usually sold and historically 4,500 is a very large number for Charlton, especially in the Championship. Three thousand is pretty much par.
So even if there were, say, 2000 season ticket holders missing and counted (which is one in five), that was offset by extra match ticket sales. And there are always 10 per cent or 1,000 missing, usually more. So the idea that it being August meant a lower actual (or announced) crowd is not correct.
The missing season ticket holders made no difference to the official crowd because they are counted anyway and the extra ticket sales - due to weather, opportunity and new season enthusiasm - offset the ST absentees in the actual crowd.
The attendances are generally very predictable if you understand how they are built up. I hope we continue to win, but that was a good crowd, considering we were struggling to get 9,000 officially (and 8,000 in reality) a year ago. It would not have been bigger in September.