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Is the day comming when only a few billionares can afford to run a football club.

We are all angry at the way RD has run are club, but we have not honestly discussed the cost of running football clubs and what we believe is reasonable to expect. This came to my mind after browsing through the Swiss Rambler pages. Where practically every EFL team is a making a loss and most are huge. Here are a few examples for 2017/2018 (in £ per week.
Wolves 1,211,000; Cardiff 645,000; Preston 140,000; Notts Forest 390,00; Rotherham 27,000; Swindon 34,000;Aston Villa 32,000; Coventry 30,000; Burton 6000.) Gross losses that season QPR £38 million, Cardiff £39 million and so it goes on.
  In the light of these facts do fans really believe they have a wright to  demand owners chase the dream of promotion and should it be at any cost.
The other point to ask is how long can this go own before the house of cards collapses.

Comments

  • Well we won';t be getting this fella on board soon , poor lad.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47455998
  • Already there I think.
  • edited March 5
    The day is fast approaching when we have even more of a copycat U S system. A few BIG city, big TV contract, big stadia football/baseball/basketball/ice hockey clubs making fortunes, owned by already very wealthy men, backed up by well supported localised 'minor' leagues, like the (English football) National league but reaching upwards into all but the  very elite 'Premier' league(s).
    I am sure that a Euro super league is on the way. For my part, I hope Brexit puts a stop to that tout de suite ((:>) 
    A point to consider is how many small (ish) clubs are owned by businessmen with wide interests who use their ownership of a 'struggling' club as a tax write off ? And/or a rich man and a few mates who are happy to lose a good few quid in their hobbyhorse football club and use games as a social focus for business and pleasure times ?

    So the answer to the question is twofold .. billionaires will own the BIG BIG clubs (as is already) and the smaller clubs will have a more varied ownership structure varying from Senile old Belgians to co-op style sharing .. plus ca meme chose, plus ca change as they say in Brussels Paris
  • I don't think it will be too long before one or two clubs do go out of existence for the reasons you state. Historically it seems a white knight(s) has always come along to save the day but I don't see it continuing indefinitely. Either the Premier league needs to share more of their money with the EFL in order to help what is effectively the grass roots of the game or else the EFL member clubs may have to re-structure, e.g. reduce number of clubs, more part-time players etc etc. Everything changes over time and I am amazed there haven't been more radical changes in football over the past 10 years or so.
  • The day is fast approaching when we have a copycat U S system. A few BIG city, big TV contract, big stadia football/baseball/basketball/ice hockey clubs making fortunes, owned by already very wealthy men, backed up by well supported localised 'minor' leagues, like the (English football) National league but reaching upwards into all but the  very elite 'Premier' league(s).
    I am sure that a Euro super league is on the way. For my part, I hope Brexit puts a stop to that tout de suite ((:>) 
    A point to consider is how many small (ish) clubs are owned by businessmen with wide interests who use their ownership of a 'struggling' club as a tax write off ? And/or a rich man and a few mates who are happy to lose a good few quid in their hobbyhorse football club and use games as a social focus for business and pleasure times ?

    So the answer to the question is twofold .. billionaires will own the BIG BIG clubs (as is already) and the smaller clubs will have a more varied ownership structure varying from Senile old Belgians to co-op style sharing .. plus ca meme chose, plus ca change as they say in Brussels Paris


    The tax write-off thing is a red herring - I would rather lose 45% in tax than 100% in losses!

    The plain simple truth is that unless the revenue generated by football is redistributed fairly there is not enough to support 92 professional football clubs. So I agree with you that 20, perhaps 40 clubs making up one or two top divisions is about all that can be maintained and the rest is back to grass roots semi-professional or amatuer clubs used as creches for developing talent. Even then, with two divisions the riches of the current Premier League would need to be diluted across both - maybe one up one down and no relegation from the second tier.

    Sad for the traditionalists but it will go that way. 

     

  • I don't think it will be too long before one or two clubs do go out of existence for the reasons you state. Historically it seems a white knight(s) has always come along to save the day but I don't see it continuing indefinitely. Either the Premier league needs to share more of their money with the EFL in order to help what is effectively the grass roots of the game or else the EFL member clubs may have to re-structure, e.g. reduce number of clubs, more part-time players etc etc. Everything changes over time and I am amazed there haven't been more radical changes in football over the past 10 years or so.

    My thoughts exactly. In 20 years or so, football in this country (and probably Europe) will have radically changed. The Premiership couldn't give a rat's arse about the lower leagues and if they had their way would cut off all monies that currently filter down. It's inevitable that we will see the demise of some clubs -probably one or two famous one. The non-league clubs may well benefit as fans seek somewhere to get their weekly fix.
  • edited March 5

     

    bobmunro said:
    The day is fast approaching when we have a copycat U S system. A few BIG city, big TV contract, big stadia football/baseball/basketball/ice hockey clubs making fortunes, owned by already very wealthy men, backed up by well supported localised 'minor' leagues, like the (English football) National league but reaching upwards into all but the  very elite 'Premier' league(s).
    I am sure that a Euro super league is on the way. For my part, I hope Brexit puts a stop to that tout de suite ((:>) 
    A point to consider is how many small (ish) clubs are owned by businessmen with wide interests who use their ownership of a 'struggling' club as a tax write off ? And/or a rich man and a few mates who are happy to lose a good few quid in their hobbyhorse football club and use games as a social focus for business and pleasure times ?

    So the answer to the question is twofold .. billionaires will own the BIG BIG clubs (as is already) and the smaller clubs will have a more varied ownership structure varying from Senile old Belgians to co-op style sharing .. plus ca meme chose, plus ca change as they say in Brussels Paris


    The tax write-off thing is a red herring - I would rather lose 45% in tax than 100% in losses!

    The plain simple truth is that unless the revenue generated by football is redistributed fairly there is not enough to support 92 professional football clubs. So I agree with you that 20, perhaps 40 clubs making up one or two top divisions is about all that can be maintained and the rest is back to grass roots semi-professional or amatuer clubs used as creches for developing talent. Even then, with two divisions the riches of the current Premier League would need to be diluted across both - maybe one up one down and no relegation from the second tier.

    Sad for the traditionalists but it will go that way. 

     


    Good post @bobmunro .. I very much doubt that in future the Prem (or whatever the 'new' structure will be called) clubs will be inclined (or 'forced') to support the lower leagues .. a crude analogy .. is Tesco supporting Spar or 'The League of corner shop owners' ? .. of course not. 
    The big clubs will certainly support one another as in the US (the draft system for example) so long as it suits the status quo. After all, the big boys need one another to make a game of it
     We have moved from 'all in this together' to big fish swallow little fish.  Tradition ? .. going, going gone the way of Morris dancing and trad jazz ((:>)
  • The problem with foofball in many ways mirrors the problem with society in general .
    The football clubs at the top are getting richer and richer. Nowhere near enough money gets filtered down through the league's. 
    Unless something changes soon I can see plenty of clubs going out of business while the top clubs continue to increase their wealth. 
    So much wrong with football and society and it's getting worse .
    Unless we can find away to change things the problem will remain. 
  • I can see a lot of lower tier clubs going part time. 
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  • I know we have discussed at length on this forum the pros & cons of potentially being owned by Red Bull, but in the absence of wealthy individual owners I wonder whether there may be an increase in corporate ownership of football clubs?  Or is the market saturated?

    It seems to me that the trend over the past decade has been for more non-league clubs to move from part-time to professional, so it will certainly take time to turn that juggernaut round and bring semi-professionalism to the league as some seem to be suggesting. (Although perhaps the EFL itself already leads the way in this!) 

    I guess if a number of league clubs fold in the same season, it might well concentrate minds and accelerate matters.  Just hope we're not one of them...

  • N01R4M said:

    I know we have discussed at length on this forum the pros & cons of potentially being owned by Red Bull, but in the absence of wealthy individual owners I wonder whether there may be an increase in corporate ownership of football clubs?  Or is the market saturated?

    It seems to me that the trend over the past decade has been for more non-league clubs to move from part-time to professional, so it will certainly take time to turn that juggernaut round and bring semi-professionalism to the league as some seem to be suggesting. (Although perhaps the EFL itself already leads the way in this!) 

    I guess if a number of league clubs fold in the same season, it might well concentrate minds and accelerate matters.  Just hope we're not one of them...


    By then it will be too late.
  • addick05 said:
    I don't think it will be too long before one or two clubs do go out of existence for the reasons you state. Historically it seems a white knight(s) has always come along to save the day but I don't see it continuing indefinitely. Either the Premier league needs to share more of their money with the EFL in order to help what is effectively the grass roots of the game or else the EFL member clubs may have to re-structure, e.g. reduce number of clubs, more part-time players etc etc. Everything changes over time and I am amazed there haven't been more radical changes in football over the past 10 years or so.

    My thoughts exactly. In 20 years or so, football in this country (and probably Europe) will have radically changed. The Premiership couldn't give a rat's arse about the lower leagues and if they had their way would cut off all monies that currently filter down. It's inevitable that we will see the demise of some clubs -probably one or two famous one. The non-league clubs may well benefit as fans seek somewhere to get their weekly fix.
    This. With bells on.

    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Think the premise is true. It’s another example of how football is going to hell in a handcart. Lots of money doesn’t always make things better in the long term.
    The problem is there is so much money swilling around in the top division that they're developing an engine to bolt on to the handcart.

    It may be that in order to preserve the Football League it'll have to be re-regionalised and go part-time in order to reduce costs and cut losses.
  • addick05 said:
    I don't think it will be too long before one or two clubs do go out of existence for the reasons you state. Historically it seems a white knight(s) has always come along to save the day but I don't see it continuing indefinitely. Either the Premier league needs to share more of their money with the EFL in order to help what is effectively the grass roots of the game or else the EFL member clubs may have to re-structure, e.g. reduce number of clubs, more part-time players etc etc. Everything changes over time and I am amazed there haven't been more radical changes in football over the past 10 years or so.

    My thoughts exactly. In 20 years or so, football in this country (and probably Europe) will have radically changed. The Premiership couldn't give a rat's arse about the lower leagues and if they had their way would cut off all monies that currently filter down. It's inevitable that we will see the demise of some clubs -probably one or two famous one. The non-league clubs may well benefit as fans seek somewhere to get their weekly fix.
    This. With bells on.

    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Think the premise is true. It’s another example of how football is going to hell in a handcart. Lots of money doesn’t always make things better in the long term.
    The problem is there is so much money swilling around in the top division that they're developing an engine to bolt on to the handcart.

    It may be that in order to preserve the Football League it'll have to be re-regionalised and go part-time in order to reduce costs and cut losses.

    There is a lot of money 'swilling around' in the game, but just how much goes OUT of the game and into the pockets of agents who earn unbelievable amounts of cash?
  • addick05 said:
    addick05 said:
    I don't think it will be too long before one or two clubs do go out of existence for the reasons you state. Historically it seems a white knight(s) has always come along to save the day but I don't see it continuing indefinitely. Either the Premier league needs to share more of their money with the EFL in order to help what is effectively the grass roots of the game or else the EFL member clubs may have to re-structure, e.g. reduce number of clubs, more part-time players etc etc. Everything changes over time and I am amazed there haven't been more radical changes in football over the past 10 years or so.

    My thoughts exactly. In 20 years or so, football in this country (and probably Europe) will have radically changed. The Premiership couldn't give a rat's arse about the lower leagues and if they had their way would cut off all monies that currently filter down. It's inevitable that we will see the demise of some clubs -probably one or two famous one. The non-league clubs may well benefit as fans seek somewhere to get their weekly fix.
    This. With bells on.

    ShootersHillGuru said:
    Think the premise is true. It’s another example of how football is going to hell in a handcart. Lots of money doesn’t always make things better in the long term.
    The problem is there is so much money swilling around in the top division that they're developing an engine to bolt on to the handcart.

    It may be that in order to preserve the Football League it'll have to be re-regionalised and go part-time in order to reduce costs and cut losses.

    There is a lot of money 'swilling around' in the game, but just how much goes OUT of the game and into the pockets of agents and players (including the mediocre ones) who earn unbelievable amounts of cash?

  • I dont know what the law will be when we finally get out of the EU,but it would be great if the number of number of foreign players per club could be restricted,thereby giving British players in the lower leagues the chance to step up.(how many talented players dont get the chance because of these overrated under performing fakes).
    The premier league could not therefore exist without the lower leagues.
    I remain convinced that sometime in the future,the financial bubble will burst and a top club will go to the wall,as billionaires(Abramovic for example) tire of their toy.I probably wont be around to see it but would be delighted to see this happen.
  • The wages to turnover ratio for some football clubs is the economics of the madhouse - as long as this continues clubs will go under.
  • PSG is owned by the sports investment company of the Qatari government. Qatar is the wealthiest nation on earth. 

    Barcelona and Real Madrid are in theory a co-op and are owned by the fans.
    The president is elected by the members/socios and can't put his own money in other than the same subs as the other 80k members. TV contributes so much as in England 

    Chelski are owned by a oligarch who was penniless at 25 and one of the riches people in the world at 35 (he's no Bill Gates)

    Man city are owned by Sheikh Mansour who is worth about 7 billion and is deputy Prime minister of the UAE and is part of the Royal family.

    Charlton are owned by a Walloon who is worth about 500 million and made his money by a patented electrical widget.
    He is a failed politician and football owner and when he's in London he travels off peak so he can use a travel card. He owns 1 pair of shoes with plenty of duct tape. 
  • Well reading through some of the replies and thinking on this issue, to be honest the quickest way to cut the lunatic spending in the EFL, and in particular the Championship is to put an end to promotion to the Premier league. Not an idea I like but there is no other way as I can see it.  The wealth and world wide coverage of that league drives owners to take mad financial gambles to get there, like paying unreasonable wages to players in what is 2nd tear football, most of whom are not good enough for top flight football.
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  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47453599

    Wolves lost 1 million a week last season in the championship

  • And now that Aston Villa`s holding company has reported its profit/loss for the 2017-2018 year, the total losses for the season has risen to £71 million according to the Swiss Rambler.
  • msomerton said:
    And now that Aston Villa`s holding company has reported its profit/loss for the 2017-2018 year, the total losses for the season has risen to £71 million according to the Swiss Rambler.

    I still chuckle to myself at the name "Randy Lerner".

    I wonder what lessons he learnt from his time at Villa?

  • He's been legged over?
  • 1. Nationalise football
    2. Salary cap £250k p.a.
    3. Ban agents
    4. Cap away ticket price at £10
    5. Cap home ticket price at £15
    6. Half price tickets for over 62s ;-)
    7. Under 14s tickets £5

    Cheers

    Jeremy


  • Check out @KieranMaguire’s Tweet:

    The average loss of a team promoted from the championship, over the last 4 years, is £550k a week!! 
  • Can fully under Andy Holt when he questions whether its worth taking Accrington up another level

    Also in one sense I can get why Roland is reluctant in one regard to return there as thats not sensible nor is it sustainable - Football authorities certainly need to get a control of it as its just not managable in the long run!!
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Roland Out!