I am addressing a portion of the debate, one also raised by Callum in a different way.
No you're not, you're company black people to horses
No I am not. I am addressing the notion that horses wouldn't exist in such numbers if there was no horseracing. I am not sure racing is established as a contribution to horse conservation, I believe there are other reasons for racing. It is the weakness of the argument, which would have been weak coming from slave owners. I didn't mention the colour of any slaves (what colour(s) were slaves in Roman times?), It says something about your preoccupation rather than mine that you differentiate it down to 'black people'.
Oh, okay, we're going with the horse existence thing. And that's a fair point.
Then the answer for that is pretty simple, and Peanuts put it best earlier - most of us who enjoy horse racing accept the 0.2% fatality rate per runner (1% of horses) as a price to pay for thoroughbreds to exist.
Others don't accept this, and then it's just a disagreement, and we can all move on.
If the response I've provided is then also compared to slavery and slave ownership, then the usefulness of the argument has ended, because as I've said before, I value human life above that of a horse - and I value all human life equally, obviously.
I am addressing a portion of the debate, one also raised by Callum in a different way.
No you're not, you're company black people to horses
No I am not. I am addressing the notion that horses wouldn't exist in such numbers if there was no horseracing. I am not sure racing is established as a contribution to horse conservation, I believe there are other reasons for racing. It is the weakness of the argument, which would have been weak coming from slave owners. I didn't mention the colour of any slaves (what colour(s) were slaves in Roman times?), It says something about your preoccupation rather than mine that you differentiate it down to 'black people'.
Shire Horses rapidly declining due to dreymen driving lorries. No value (except the small number of enthusiasts who fight to jeep em going) so they disappear.
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
So you agree with the position that medical research for the benefit of mankind should not be carried out using animals?
Yes. Evidence suggests it’s not a good indicator, that it will benefit humans.
And what gives us the right to do that, other than Mans ability to dominate another species?
If you’ve ever taken antibiotics, had a vaccine, a blood transfusion, dialysis, an organ transplant, chemotherapy, bypass surgery or joint replacement, you have benefitted from animal testing and research. In fact, practically every drug, treatment, medical device, diagnostic tool or cure we have today was developed with the help of lab animals.
Many diseases that once killed millions of people every year are now either preventable, treatable or have been eradicated altogether. Immunizations against polio, diphtheria, mumps, rubella and hepatitis save countless lives and the survival rates for many major diseases are at an all-time high thanks to the discovery of new drugs and the design of sophisticated medical devices and surgical procedures.
Let's hope you need none of the above to live, eh.
I've benefitted from them but now I wouldn't want to and don't. There are ways to test drugs without abusing animals.
So, if faced with a life threatening condition, Sepsis for example, you’d reject the use of life saving antibiotics ?
I'd be very conflicted and might. My passion for animal rights is increasing and I can see it easily leading to rejecting animal tested drugs. I already do my best to not buy animal tested products for myself.
This type of thread is aimed at those of us on here who like horseracing in order, I suspect, to wind us up. As others have stated, when questions are asked of those who want to ban the sport, answers are not forthcoming. They claim to love animals. Why then, do none of them start threads on halal meat and its production. In fact in a discussion on that topic in April 2018, none of the anti horseracing brigade even posted on it. But they soon jump in on here. Probably because they know they have few, if any, Muslims posting on here. Whereas, there are plenty of horseracing fans to have a dig at. As well as not wanting to offend, in their eyes, a religious group. Why do these threads only appear at the same time of year ? Close to the big NH festivals perhaps ? Several post on here but they never answer questions put to them - at least 3 of us have stated as much.
I don't claim to love animals. I just think they should be respected and not abused for sport or any other reason. I abhor any ritualistic slaughter of animals whether it be for halal, kosher or any other reason. I think people who use religion as a cover for their actual or complicit barbarity to animals are beneath contempt. I think all religions are crackpot cults and can't think of one that hasn't had huge issues about it's behaviour. Whether it be sexual abuse, physical abuse, enslaving children, financial abuse etc.
The alternative to animal testing is human testing and this generally leads to either drugs trials where people are paid to do so, invariably these are poor people/homeless who are desperate for the money, or drug tests being forced on prisoners. Animal exploitation to human exploitation. I know which one I'd rather have.
This type of thread is aimed at those of us on here who like horseracing in order, I suspect, to wind us up. As others have stated, when questions are asked of those who want to ban the sport, answers are not forthcoming. They claim to love animals. Why then, do none of them start threads on halal meat and its production. In fact in a discussion on that topic in April 2018, none of the anti horseracing brigade even posted on it. But they soon jump in on here. Probably because they know they have few, if any, Muslims posting on here. Whereas, there are plenty of horseracing fans to have a dig at. As well as not wanting to offend, in their eyes, a religious group. Why do these threads only appear at the same time of year ? Close to the big NH festivals perhaps ? Several post on here but they never answer questions put to them - at least 3 of us have stated as much.
Didn’t someone say earlier that the vast majority of animals slaughtered in this country in compliance with Halal requirements are actually stunned? Why do you keep bringing it up?
So if you needed an operation now when you know better you would turn it down?
Come on martin, give us an answer.....
We’ll, it’s the 3 million dollar question and I don’t think I or anybody else can really say in truth how we may respond if we found ourselves in a life threatening situation. Including pushing someone out of a rapidly descending plane, if there weren’t enough parachutes to go around!
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
Problem is PETA are a society of morons.
That quote doesn't even make sense. Animals aren't ours to entertain? What?
If that’s your attitude and you can’t understand it then what does that say about you?
Ah ok you're right, I could never be the mastermind behind such brilliant campaigns such as this one:
There’s plenty of ridiculous village names, I hardly see one more could do any harm, particularly if it’s trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
So you agree with the position that medical research for the benefit of mankind should not be carried out using animals?
Yes. Evidence suggests it’s not a good indicator, that it will benefit humans.
And what gives us the right to do that, other than Mans ability to dominate another species?
If you’ve ever taken antibiotics, had a vaccine, a blood transfusion, dialysis, an organ transplant, chemotherapy, bypass surgery or joint replacement, you have benefitted from animal testing and research. In fact, practically every drug, treatment, medical device, diagnostic tool or cure we have today was developed with the help of lab animals.
Many diseases that once killed millions of people every year are now either preventable, treatable or have been eradicated altogether. Immunizations against polio, diphtheria, mumps, rubella and hepatitis save countless lives and the survival rates for many major diseases are at an all-time high thanks to the discovery of new drugs and the design of sophisticated medical devices and surgical procedures.
Let's hope you need none of the above to live, eh.
You may be right.
I don't take antibiotics, we now know that they aren't necessarily effective and there's now a stance not to prescribe them. Luckily I haven't had any operations since I was a kid and back then I wouldn't have known any better.
Man does what he does because he has the power to dominate, not only animals but his own race.
I wonder how we would feel if we were suddenly helpless against a much stronger race who dominated us?
I simply don't agree we should exploit animals, for me it's not ethical and if you take the Buddhist stance and that is, Not to harm another living creature and Man does over and over again, often for his own pleasure.
This is a genuine question mate and not in any way intended to be inflammatory. If you were to have say a rats lair in your home or garden would you leave the rats alone and not have them destroyed? How about a wasps nest in the loft? Or what about that really annoying blue bottle buzzing around the living room; do you not get the fly spray or fly swatter out? As I say, it's a genuine question.
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
Problem is PETA are a society of morons.
That quote doesn't even make sense. Animals aren't ours to entertain? What?
If that’s your attitude and you can’t understand it then what does that say about you?
Ah ok you're right, I could never be the mastermind behind such brilliant campaigns such as this one:
There’s plenty of ridiculous village names, I hardly see one more could do any harm, particularly if it’s trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
Why don't you rename one of your children "Vegan Sausage Roll". Can't do any harm, particularly if it's trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
This type of thread is aimed at those of us on here who like horseracing in order, I suspect, to wind us up. As others have stated, when questions are asked of those who want to ban the sport, answers are not forthcoming. They claim to love animals. Why then, do none of them start threads on halal meat and its production. In fact in a discussion on that topic in April 2018, none of the anti horseracing brigade even posted on it. But they soon jump in on here. Probably because they know they have few, if any, Muslims posting on here. Whereas, there are plenty of horseracing fans to have a dig at. As well as not wanting to offend, in their eyes, a religious group. Why do these threads only appear at the same time of year ? Close to the big NH festivals perhaps ? Several post on here but they never answer questions put to them - at least 3 of us have stated as much.
Didn’t someone say earlier that the vast majority of animals slaughtered in this country in compliance with Halal requirements are actually stunned? Why do you keep bringing it up?
It's looking like opposers to horse racing don't wish to be hypocrites and will turn down life saving medicines. This suggests horse racing will continue to thrive unopposed
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
Problem is PETA are a society of morons.
That quote doesn't even make sense. Animals aren't ours to entertain? What?
If that’s your attitude and you can’t understand it then what does that say about you?
Ah ok you're right, I could never be the mastermind behind such brilliant campaigns such as this one:
There’s plenty of ridiculous village names, I hardly see one more could do any harm, particularly if it’s trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
Why don't you rename one of your children "Vegan Sausage Roll". Can't do any harm, particularly if it's trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
Maybe I have, again there are plenty of parents who’ve given their kids ridiculous names too!
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
Problem is PETA are a society of morons.
That quote doesn't even make sense. Animals aren't ours to entertain? What?
If that’s your attitude and you can’t understand it then what does that say about you?
Ah ok you're right, I could never be the mastermind behind such brilliant campaigns such as this one:
There’s plenty of ridiculous village names, I hardly see one more could do any harm, particularly if it’s trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
Why don't you rename one of your children "Vegan Sausage Roll". Can't do any harm, particularly if it's trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
Maybe I have, again there are plenty of parents who’ve given their kids ridiculous names too!
Pretty sure Frank Zappa wasn't a vegetarian let alone a vegan.
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
Problem is PETA are a society of morons.
That quote doesn't even make sense. Animals aren't ours to entertain? What?
If that’s your attitude and you can’t understand it then what does that say about you?
Ah ok you're right, I could never be the mastermind behind such brilliant campaigns such as this one:
There’s plenty of ridiculous village names, I hardly see one more could do any harm, particularly if it’s trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
Why don't you rename one of your children "Vegan Sausage Roll". Can't do any harm, particularly if it's trying to raise awareness, which it clearly is, so sounds good to me.
Maybe I have, again there are plenty of parents who’ve given their kids ridiculous names too!
Pretty sure Frank Zappa wasn't a vegetarian let alone a vegan.
Yes, and they’re pretty ridiculous names aren’t they?
the horses are bred specifically to race so if you banned it they wouldn’t exist - that’s a net loss of c 20,000 horses every year - that doesn’t seem like a great benefit to society to wipe them out.
they don’t just meander about wandering up the high street wondering what to do next and get forced into racing.
Well if they’re bred for racing then that would suggest they are forced, do they have a choice?
So, as someone has asked before, would you rather they were not bred at all?
Well, I’m thinking if they’re not bred, then presumably they won’t exist, so then it doesn’t matter?
I don’t think animals should be bred for our sporting pleasure.
So you want the thoroughbred horse to cease to exist. Cats and dogs and various other pets are also only bred for the enjoyment/pleasure of the human race. I take it you want all of those animals to also cease to exist?
I repeat, I don’t think animals should be bred/used for our sporting pleasure!
I’ll repeat the Peta quote,
‘Animals are not ours, to experiment on, eat, wear, entertain or abuse.’
I think that’s a very clear message, isn’t it?
So you agree with the position that medical research for the benefit of mankind should not be carried out using animals?
Yes. Evidence suggests it’s not a good indicator, that it will benefit humans.
And what gives us the right to do that, other than Mans ability to dominate another species?
If you’ve ever taken antibiotics, had a vaccine, a blood transfusion, dialysis, an organ transplant, chemotherapy, bypass surgery or joint replacement, you have benefitted from animal testing and research. In fact, practically every drug, treatment, medical device, diagnostic tool or cure we have today was developed with the help of lab animals.
Many diseases that once killed millions of people every year are now either preventable, treatable or have been eradicated altogether. Immunizations against polio, diphtheria, mumps, rubella and hepatitis save countless lives and the survival rates for many major diseases are at an all-time high thanks to the discovery of new drugs and the design of sophisticated medical devices and surgical procedures.
Let's hope you need none of the above to live, eh.
You may be right.
I don't take antibiotics, we now know that they aren't necessarily effective and there's now a stance not to prescribe them. Luckily I haven't had any operations since I was a kid and back then I wouldn't have known any better.
Man does what he does because he has the power to dominate, not only animals but his own race.
I wonder how we would feel if we were suddenly helpless against a much stronger race who dominated us?
I simply don't agree we should exploit animals, for me it's not ethical and if you take the Buddhist stance and that is, Not to harm another living creature and Man does over and over again, often for his own pleasure.
This is a genuine question mate and not in any way intended to be inflammatory. If you were to have say a rats lair in your home or garden would you leave the rats alone and not have them destroyed? How about a wasps nest in the loft? Or what about that really annoying blue bottle buzzing around the living room; do you not get the fly spray or fly swatter out? As I say, it's a genuine question.
Final comment, as the OP said this debate should be on another thread.
My understanding of what Buddhists are saying, that you don’t harm another living creature if you don’t need or have to. It’s not suggesting that, if you find yourself in danger or conflict with an animal, that you shouldn’t take appropriate action. I’m not a Buddhist, yet, so don’t quote me on that but that’s how I’d interpret it.
I don’t swat or use fly spray, I open the window and usher them out, it’s worked so far. I don’t have a loft but if I did and there was a wasps nest, if it wasn’t interfering with my life then I’d leave it, until it did. I’ve lived with mice, we probably all have and do. Admittedly wasn’t infested but I left them. Rats like all these creatures you mention are much maligned and again if my life wasn’t being threatened then again I’d leave them.
I love animals some more than others, it’s been a privilege to have shared some of my life with animals.
But if you’re asking me would I just stand by and allow a Lion to maul me to death then of course I wouldn’t but if there was an option not to kill it, then that’s the one I’d take.
Comments
@i_b_b_o_r_g to serve
Then the answer for that is pretty simple, and Peanuts put it best earlier - most of us who enjoy horse racing accept the 0.2% fatality rate per runner (1% of horses) as a price to pay for thoroughbreds to exist.
Others don't accept this, and then it's just a disagreement, and we can all move on.
If the response I've provided is then also compared to slavery and slave ownership, then the usefulness of the argument has ended, because as I've said before, I value human life above that of a horse - and I value all human life equally, obviously.
My passion for animal rights is increasing and I can see it easily leading to rejecting animal tested drugs.
I already do my best to not buy animal tested products for myself.
I abhor any ritualistic slaughter of animals whether it be for halal, kosher or any other reason.
I think people who use religion as a cover for their actual or complicit barbarity to animals are beneath contempt.
I think all religions are crackpot cults and can't think of one that hasn't had huge issues about it's behaviour. Whether it be sexual abuse, physical abuse, enslaving children, financial abuse etc.
This suggests horse racing will continue to thrive unopposed
My understanding of what Buddhists are saying, that you don’t harm another living creature if you don’t need or have to. It’s not suggesting that, if you find yourself in danger or conflict with an animal, that you shouldn’t take appropriate action. I’m not a Buddhist, yet, so don’t quote me on that but that’s how I’d interpret it.
I don’t swat or use fly spray, I open the window and usher them out, it’s worked so far. I don’t have a loft but if I did and there was a wasps nest, if it wasn’t interfering with my life then I’d leave it, until it did. I’ve lived with mice, we probably all have and do. Admittedly wasn’t infested but I left them. Rats like all these creatures you mention are much maligned and again if my life wasn’t being threatened then again I’d leave them.
I love animals some more than others, it’s been a privilege to have shared some of my life with animals.
But if you’re asking me would I just stand by and allow a Lion to maul me to death then of course I wouldn’t but if there was an option not to kill it, then that’s the one I’d take.
Couple of aspirin, plenty of liquids and an early night should sort you out.