As a 4-4-2 diamond, the use is to overload the midfield to have a greater control of the game. The middle two centre midfielders have to be extremely fit to play this system for a long period of time. These midfielders will be expected to get out to the wing and help the full backs as quickly as getting back in and helping out the main central base midfielder.
Full backs in this system have to ideally be equally good going forward as they are defending. This is because they’re expected to provide the width for the team when attacking whilst also being potentially isolated when defending by not having the natural covering wide midfielder.
The attacking midfielder at the top of the diamond is often the creative spark in the team, the player to unlock the door of the opposition defence, create chances, make space and find the two forwards in front of them.
The two strikers are also key for this system. They will need to not only occupy the centre backs of the opposition, but be just as comfortable drifting wide and helping out the full back when attacking. One of the strikers will often need to be able to drop into midfield and help out the team when the opposition play the ball out wide.
The player who would need the most discipline is arguably the base of the diamond, the sitting, holding midfielder if you like. They’re going to need to be comfortable on the ball, able to win the ball back quickly whilst also being very positionally and tactically aware, often having the cover the centre backs or the full backs. However, they can sometimes be left exposed if the opposition move the ball from wide areas to the other side very quickly. Often this is where space is found by the opposition team.
What you will often find is the two centre back splitting and allowing the full backs to push forward, here the base midfielder will drop. Naturally, you can see this becoming a 3-5-2, hence the adaptability and flexibility in the system.
There are many pros and cons of the system and formation, as there are with all. But it is something that I can see suits Bowyer as it requires very hard working players who are also capable on the ball.
Flexibility of the system:
X X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X X X
There is more I can go into detail about but I’m currently out at dinner so don’t want to get told off!
I think its a load of old bollox imo. Players run & constantly change position. Its not netball where you can only go into certain areas. Just the same as zone marking doesn't work.
Then again I'm old school - sunday football & jumpers for goalposts (thats because you can't be arsed lugging the posts half way over blackheath)
With all non 442 systems, whether 4231, 41212 diamond or 352, the full backs can come under pressure if the opponents play 442, as often they'll be in 2 against 1 situations unless the midfield are disciplined and know their roles
I always thought we looked vulnerable in wide areas under Robinson's 4231
The thing I like about the 41212 system is the availability of the player behind the front 2, and the lack of playing with proper wingers as I find a front 2 with out and out wingers in a conventional 442 can leave you too exposed at times. This in theory is what the 4231 helped combat, as you had 2 out and out wingers, a central "lynchpin" number 10 behind a number 9 and 2 defensive midfielders to cover the gaps left behind by players pushing forwards. Some of the top teams in Europe have been known to use a 343/541 formation where in attack the wingers push right up by the striker and the full backs become wingbacks, and when defending they all fall back to a flat 5 and a 4 sitting in front of that, but you need a top striker and an 11 with bags of stamina to be able to execute it properly
I find the diamond tends to work as a surprise if the opposition isn't expecting it - even Karel pissing Fraeye won one with it - but once the opposition know it's coming it's easily exploited. The longer you play it the more the returns diminish so I'd like to see Bowyer change it up
The thing I like about the 41212 system is the availability of the player behind the front 2, and the lack of playing with proper wingers as I find a front 2 with out and out wingers in a conventional 442 can leave you too exposed at times. This in theory is what the 4231 helped combat, as you had 2 out and out wingers, a central "lynchpin" number 10 behind a number 9 and 2 defensive midfielders to cover the gaps left behind by players pushing forwards. Some of the top teams in Europe have been known to use a 343/541 formation where in attack the wingers push right up by the striker and the full backs become wingbacks, and when defending they all fall back to a flat 5 and a 4 sitting in front of that, but you need a top striker and an 11 with bags of stamina to be able to execute it properly
That might be true if you have lightweight "flairy" wingers who go missing and don't track back, but with the great Fergie side Giggs and Beckham provided both attacking flair and defensive solidity. The likes of Johnny Robinson and Newton certainly did their fair share of defensive work too
Thank you. - now to complete my UEFA B and move on to UEFA A when I have the opportunity.
You need to practice the technical stuff like "push up", "I want 110%", "space", "movement", "Spread out" and how to swear for 15 minutes at half time while throwing teacups around.
When we start winning games comfortably & start scoring more than 2 goals every 4 games then I'll aplaud it. Until then, I'll stick to my wingers who hug the touchlines, put crossess in on the run to strikers who attack the ball in the box.
I find the diamond tends to work as a surprise if the opposition isn't expecting it - even Karel pissing Fraeye won one with it - but once the opposition know it's coming it's easily exploited. The longer you play it the more the returns diminish so I'd like to see Bowyer change it up
I forgot that he used the formation, it did work well for two games, until Big Mick worked it out and we got stuffed 3-0.
Its never a flat 442 diamond, as stated everyone sort of fills a few roles.
Personally i feel its similar to 352, but with the 2 in the middle. Fullbacks need to play as wing backs (covering both defence and getting forward). In the centre you need a semedo (poor mans kante) in front of centre backs. You dont really need proper wingers as this will be filled by fullbacks (old fashioned name i know) 2 playmakers/ box to box midfielders, need to be good on the ball and work there socks off. Probably the most important part of the formation imo Forwards need to play high up, doesn't make much sense them dropping back as they need to be our outlet and to pressure the opposition from the front.
I am not sure whether i am a massive fan, but given the correct personal it does work. Would prefer it as an option if we are finding it difficult to score, i like 352 or even 4231, but i prefer 2 up top with our squad.
sorry for the early morning waffle, just kept typing.... and typing
When we start winning games comfortably & start scoring more than 2 goals every 4 games then I'll aplaud it. Until then, I'll stick to my wingers who hug the touchlines, put crossess in on the run to strikers who attack the ball in the box.
Golfaddick man after my own heart,all these systems are bollocks,once the game starts,most players will just revert to what they do well,and not spend the entire game trying to remember the black board they saw in training room,over complicating what is essentially a simple game.
Golfaddick man after my own heart,all these systems are bollocks,once the game starts,most players will just revert to what they do well,and not spend the entire game trying to remember the black board they saw in training room,over complicating what is essentially a simple game.
Players who do that let the team down.
I would certainly expect a professional footballer to have a complete understanding as to what role he is required to play, and then do that. It is their job. There is of course a certain freedom for player inspiration and initiative, and this will be encouraged and allowed for within the tactics.
What you cannot have is players wandering around doing their own thing and leaving gaps for the opposition to exploit.
A good example would be both Arsenal fullbacks pushing forward at the same time. Stupid and costly.
They will know their basic roles/duties within the system. That isn't overcomplicating and if it is in a 4-4-2 diamond, which isn't overly complex, I would question how they are professionals. Systems work best if you have the right players for that system at the end of the day.
For me, the system that works best is where the CDs move up close to the midfield when attacking and fall back incrementally when losing possession, rather than parking the bus on the 18 yard box or deeper. Liverpool are best proponents of this at the mo, but they do have the seriously quick Gomez at the back.
To redrobbo,yes at a certain level,Players playing under Guerdiola,Morinho,Fergusson etc,will be of the highest quality,and therefore able to adapt and absorb systems,lets be fair,some of the players we see at our level are to say the least,industrial,and would have difficulty absorbing any tactics other than crunching the opposition and lumping the ball up the pitch.
To redrobbo,yes at a certain level,Players playing under Guerdiola,Morinho,Fergusson etc,will be of the highest quality,and therefore able to adapt and absorb systems,lets be fair,some of the players we see at our level are to say the least,industrial,and would have difficulty absorbing any tactics other than crunching the opposition and lumping the ball up the pitch.
Comments
As a 4-4-2 diamond, the use is to overload the midfield to have a greater control of the game. The middle two centre midfielders have to be extremely fit to play this system for a long period of time. These midfielders will be expected to get out to the wing and help the full backs as quickly as getting back in and helping out the main central base midfielder.
Full backs in this system have to ideally be equally good going forward as they are defending. This is because they’re expected to provide the width for the team when attacking whilst also being potentially isolated when defending by not having the natural covering wide midfielder.
The attacking midfielder at the top of the diamond is often the creative spark in the team, the player to unlock the door of the opposition defence, create chances, make space and find the two forwards in front of them.
The two strikers are also key for this system. They will need to not only occupy the centre backs of the opposition, but be just as comfortable drifting wide and helping out the full back when attacking. One of the strikers will often need to be able to drop into midfield and help out the team when the opposition play the ball out wide.
The player who would need the most discipline is arguably the base of the diamond, the sitting, holding midfielder if you like. They’re going to need to be comfortable on the ball, able to win the ball back quickly whilst also being very positionally and tactically aware, often having the cover the centre backs or the full backs. However, they can sometimes be left exposed if the opposition move the ball from wide areas to the other side very quickly. Often this is where space is found by the opposition team.
What you will often find is the two centre back splitting and allowing the full backs to push forward, here the base midfielder will drop. Naturally, you can see this becoming a 3-5-2, hence the adaptability and flexibility in the system.
There are many pros and cons of the system and formation, as there are with all. But it is something that I can see suits Bowyer as it requires very hard working players who are also capable on the ball.
Flexibility of the system:
X X X X
X
X X
X
X X
X
X X X
X X X X
X
X X
There is more I can go into detail about but I’m currently out at dinner so don’t want to get told off!
Then again I'm old school - sunday football & jumpers for goalposts (thats because you can't be arsed lugging the posts half way over blackheath)
I always thought we looked vulnerable in wide areas under Robinson's 4231
Personally i feel its similar to 352, but with the 2 in the middle. Fullbacks need to play as wing backs (covering both defence and getting forward).
In the centre you need a semedo (poor mans kante) in front of centre backs.
You dont really need proper wingers as this will be filled by fullbacks (old fashioned name i know)
2 playmakers/ box to box midfielders, need to be good on the ball and work there socks off. Probably the most important part of the formation imo
Forwards need to play high up, doesn't make much sense them dropping back as they need to be our outlet and to pressure the opposition from the front.
I am not sure whether i am a massive fan, but given the correct personal it does work. Would prefer it as an option if we are finding it difficult to score, i like 352 or even 4231, but i prefer 2 up top with our squad.
sorry for the early morning waffle, just kept typing.... and typing
I would certainly expect a professional footballer to have a complete understanding as to what role he is required to play, and then do that. It is their job. There is of course a certain freedom for player inspiration and initiative, and this will be encouraged and allowed for within the tactics.
What you cannot have is players wandering around doing their own thing and leaving gaps for the opposition to exploit.
A good example would be both Arsenal fullbacks pushing forward at the same time. Stupid and costly.
I like the flexibility ..... the diamond easily morphs into flat 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 or 3-5-2.
The nucleus of the team remains more or less the same, each change with just a couple of players taking up different roles or positions.
Everybody does need to do their job - and know how their own job in the team can change.