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  • Interesting read from him, especially about the lack of a need to get promoted to the Championship for a club of their size... Just take Yeovil for example, they were having a great time in League One, got promoted yet ended up getting a double relegation - Remember when that happened the Yeovil owner came out and said that it was promotion to the Championship that hurt them
  • Very honest and realistic assessment.
  • iaitch said:

    Very honest and realistic assessment.

    Agreed
  • Also reminds me of the Sutton Manager last season that I heard being interviewed on the radio as I drove home from Charlton one day - Even he was saying that financially it wouldnt be sensible for them to be promoted to League Two, not just because of the costs of having to replace their 4G pitch yet the additional costs involved as well

    Madness that a club wouldnt want to be promoted for that reason and should never have to be the case!!

    Certainly something that the EFL should consider changing, as they just come across as a rich boys club
  • Yes, the Accrington owner sums up the reality of small football clubs, whether owned by the fans or perhaps by a small local owner

    It is often much safer to find a level and stick there, as promotion means more expensive players and wages, and a shift in your cost base which will be slow and painful to reduce if/when you go down again.

    It would be very interesting to compare our cost base (on and off the pitch) in 1998 (i.e. before the first promotion to the PL), in 2000 (after we went down and up) and 2007 when we crashed out.
  • Who are they?
  • Amazing how well they've done on their budget.
  • Hasn't changed that much, I remember when Mullery was our manager and the team were doing well. He approached Glikstein saying that we could get promoted if we invested £100,000 but the chairman wasn't interested because of higher wages/costs etc.
  • It shouldn't necessarily be that you have to pay higher wages after promotion. What if you just stick with the same players and offer the same wages? I don't know if anyone remembers but I started a thread on here about the club 'Poiré sur Vie' in Vendée, France who relegated themselves from the 3rd to 5th division stating the reasons that are given here.
    Btw, does anyone have a link to the original article?
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  • The simple fact is that in a country of just 53 million, there is not enough demand for 92 clubs to exist that pay wages, have a stadium, training ground and owners willing to fund permanent losses. I think in the next major downturn almost 1/3 of existing clubs will go into administration... and this time, not return from it.
  • The simple fact is that in a country of just 53 million, there is not enough demand for 92 clubs to exist that pay wages, have a stadium, training ground and owners willing to fund permanent losses. I think in the next major downturn almost 1/3 of existing clubs will go into administration... and this time, not return from it.

    I disagree with your diagnosis. The "permanent losses" exist because of ridiculous wage inflation through the leagues which is in turn created by the FAPL being allowed to retain and control all the TV rights. None of these problems exist in Germany.You might want to examine why not.

    Sometime in the next couple of months I'll be going to see my Czech team, Viktoria Plzen, take on Real Madrid in the Champions League. I can be almost certain that Viktoria's wage bill is less than Charlton's last season, (I was able to get the respective figure before in the 2011-12 season, and Viktoria, again in the UCL that season, had a wage bill less than half that of Charlton's 3rd division champion winning squad) and equally certain that if it were for sale, you could buy it for far less than £40 bloody million. You're right that English football is financial a bubble, but it's not lack of demand, but the control of the major source of revenue by 20 largely foreign club owners that is the root cause.

  • The simple fact is that in a country of just 53 million, there is not enough demand for 92 clubs to exist that pay wages, have a stadium, training ground and owners willing to fund permanent losses. I think in the next major downturn almost 1/3 of existing clubs will go into administration... and this time, not return from it.

    Professional football has survived ww1, the great depression, ww2, post war austerity, post war prosperity with expanded leisure options, on digital and the banking collapse.
    Professional football is as indestructible as it's possible to be.
  • I'm sure the next deep recession clubs will go out of business. But ten years on from the last we have more fully pro teams and championship teams operating on budgets that would that would have dwarfed prem teams of 10 years ago. If attendances collapse then clubs lower down the pyramid will be built on, but it won't be finance it'll be generational changes in entertainment.
  • edited August 30

    The simple fact is that in a country of just 53 million, there is not enough demand for 92 clubs to exist that pay wages, have a stadium, training ground and owners willing to fund permanent losses. I think in the next major downturn almost 1/3 of existing clubs will go into administration... and this time, not return from it.

    Yep... sorry Napa.... I agree with a lot of the things you post, but I strongly disagree here

    It’s one of the amazing strengths of English football that 92+ professional clubs CAN be supported by a population this size. It’s testament to how popular the game is here and far outstrips what exist in all other countries in Europe, as I understand it

    The authorities need to adapt to the modern changes to the environment that football exists in to preserve and protect this outstanding sporting heritage

  • Definite lack of ambition; he should get himself a proper blog rather than sending multiple tweets.
  • The simple fact is that in a country of just 53 million, there is not enough demand for 92 clubs to exist that pay wages, have a stadium, training ground and owners willing to fund permanent losses. I think in the next major downturn almost 1/3 of existing clubs will go into administration... and this time, not return from it.

    Yep... sorry Napa.... I agree with a lot of the things you post, but I strongly disagree here

    It’s one of the amazing strengths of English football that 92+ professional clubs CAN be supported by a population this size. It’s testament to how popular the game is here and far outstrips what exist in all other countries in Europe, as I understand it

    The authorities need to adapt to the modern changes to the environment that football exists in to preserve and protect this outstanding sporting heritage

    Its true that the attendances in our lower leagues are a matter of wonder to nearly all other European countries- except possibly Germany. The main difference in structure is that the 4th league is regionalised, but as we know from our "cousins" at Carl Zeiss Jena, 4-5,000 is easily possible. They got promoted to the 3rd Bundesliga, and now easily get 7,000. That's a "real" 7k, so pretty much matching us. Last season I watched a video of their 3rd league fixture at Magdeburg, a real seething old school football temple with 21,000 in attendance. In the 2nd Bundlesliga last week, Hamburg SV, relegated from the first division for the first time ever, kicked off in front of 46,000.

    Perhaps more importantly though, German clubs are with very few exceptions, solvent. They are nearly all 51 % owned by the fans. That's why Jena is the only one of RD's clubs that has succeeded. He has not been able to meddle in the football side. And the TV money is controlled by the German Football Association, not the Bundesliga - which is just a subsidiary organisation of the German FA. It's all so ridiculously rational, I just cannot understand why more of us English fans don't get it.

  • Because we like speculation into administration?

    It's an interesting and legitimate point but past the super clubs such as Hamburg and Koln, haven't many struggled and gone bankrupt? Virtually all the East German teams I've read about were close to bankruptcy or indeed bankrupt post unification.

    Many WGerman teams struggle after Bundesliga relegation as well. Almenia Aachen went bankrupt after their brief Bundesliga stay. 1860 Munich, FC St Pauli the list goes on of even well supported clubs basically insolvent. At least the 51% rule adds an extra protection, but it didn't stop 1860 being relegated two divisions as the owner refused to pay league fees.

    It's a model us fans look on as admirable, but whilst it rationalises Bundesliga II finances it doesn't stop the implosion of relegated teams. It also means clubs are often not supported by megalomanic billionaires in sustaining losses. Personally it's something I'd prefer and that RB Leipzig's model were an anomaly rather than the cavernous growing losses most Champ teams make.
  • It's not 92 professional clubs, it's 110/115 as nearly all National League clubs are fully pro as well.
  • One of the things that would help smaller clubs would be the acceptance in tier 3 and 4 of artificial pitches, a team like Maidstone would have to rip up their pitch, cease a lot of vommunity activity as these pitches are not allowed, despite champuons league games being played on them
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  • edited August 30

    The simple fact is that in a country of just 53 million, there is not enough demand for 92 clubs to exist that pay wages, have a stadium, training ground and owners willing to fund permanent losses. I think in the next major downturn almost 1/3 of existing clubs will go into administration... and this time, not return from it.

    I disagree with your diagnosis. The "permanent losses" exist because of ridiculous wage inflation through the leagues which is in turn created by the FAPL being allowed to retain and control all the TV rights. None of these problems exist in Germany.You might want to examine why not.

    Sometime in the next couple of months I'll be going to see my Czech team, Viktoria Plzen, take on Real Madrid in the Champions League. I can be almost certain that Viktoria's wage bill is less than Charlton's last season, (I was able to get the respective figure before in the 2011-12 season, and Viktoria, again in the UCL that season, had a wage bill less than half that of Charlton's 3rd division champion winning squad) and equally certain that if it were for sale, you could buy it for far less than £40 bloody million. You're right that English football is financial a bubble, but it's not lack of demand, but the control of the major source of revenue by 20 largely foreign club owners that is the root cause.

    I partly agree and party disagree.

    First, it makes no sense to compare a Czech football team (or their league) with England, anymore than it makes sense to compare it to the MLS. I suspect Charlton would beat that Czech team, btw. I bet the best team in Africa also has a lower wage bill than CAFC. It means nothing. There is demand to buy English clubs because it is England. I don't hear of Saudis fighting over Czech clubs, whether they are in the Champions League or not.

    Also, studies... lots of studies... show that club wages and club finishing position are very highly correlated since... forever. If that Czech club had to deal with English costs of living, English wages, English entitlements and English regulations, I bet it would see its costs balloon. Heck, I doubt it would even survive, here. As much as CAFC pays its players, there are at least 35+ teams in England that pay more.

    The Premier League is the biggest football league on Earth with intense competition, which drives up the costs of everything. Charlton's revenues and wages (given this is London we are talking about) are about right for where we stand in the scheme of English football.

    As for Germany... things are not as rosy there as you think. Fan ownership has essentially made the league a one-team race every year with little hope of that ever changing.
    https://www.economist.com/game-theory/2016/05/25/bayern-munichs-dominance-benefits-and-blights-german-football

  • @NapaAddick

    Of course I was to some extent using the Czech example as a polemic to illustrate a point, although the idea that Charlton would beat Viktoria Plzen is beyond laughable. Their top striker, Michal Krmencik turned down a £12m move to Newcastle after Viktoria doubled his wages. He's not stupid. He wants to play in the UCL group stage against Real and Roma, not get kicked around losing a Carabao Cup tie.

    The overall point is that English players wages are absurdly inflated. The dross in the Championship that are picking up salaries of 30-40k per week is just mind-boggling. And understand how this happens, please. It happens because clubs get relegated from the FAPL with this dross on 3-4 year contracts. So the other clubs in the Championship have to pay similar salaries to match that of this dross, and some of them get a fraction of the TV revenue that other clubs do, because of the absurdity of the parachute payment system. That is why the BDO survey of opinions of club CFOs finds that they consider the Championship to be the most financially unstable of the four divisions. That's your bubble, mate, right there.

    Of course I'm aware of the Bayern dominance, although neither you nor that article demonstrate the causal link between fan ownership and that dominance. Other specific phenomena include how Bayern took over ownership of the Allianz stadium entirely because of the incompetent management of 1860 Munich who had previously owned 50%. The Germans will find a solution, because the Germans always do. As a people they are good at identifying their mistakes and learning from them. And of course in football, an apparent hegemony can collapse quite quickly as a result of arrogance, hubris, and simply, events. As we saw a couple of months ago at the World Cup. As it happens I was there in Germany on the evening they lost to S. Korea. That was something, I tell you.

  • Still going strong, sitting nicely in the play off spots. Absolutely incredible given they get crowds of just over 2k.
  • Still going strong, sitting nicely in the play off spots. Absolutely incredible given they get crowds of just over 2k.

    Given the budget Stanley operate on I was amazed they even got to L1. To be in the top 6 is pretty incredible - hope they keep the good form up.
  • Level on points with Sunderland after a quarter of the season. It'll take them half a season of accumulative home attendances to get what Sunderland will get just for their boxing day home game.
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