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Ken Livingstone resigns from the Labour Party

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Comments

  • Greenie said:

    Yep.

    oh wow, has corbyn resigned? Thought this thread was on livingstone.
  • Some people on the left like to blame the evil Tory austerity policies on Jewish businesspeople.
    They are wrong, and racist for doing so and it is an attitude that infects the anti Tory stance.
    The evil Tory policies come about because those people are evil, not because they are or are not Jewish.
    Members of any party that define opposition policy as driven by any particular racial group are not opposing on the basis of the issue but are being c*nts.
    If Labour party members are blaming opposition policy on a race they are being c*nts.
  • edited May 2018

    Greenie said:

    Yep.

    oh wow, has corbyn resigned? Thought this thread was on livingstone.
    Read the thread and you'll find out.
  • Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Yep.

    oh wow, has corbyn resigned? Thought this thread was on livingstone.
    Read the thread and you'll find out.
    i see, ken saying hitler was a zionist and making the link between zionism and nazis is just a media conspiracy.
  • Ken has now made it plainly clear that labour do indeed have a big blindspot on anti semitism:

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/ken-livingstones-disciplinary-hearing/
  • Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Yep.

    oh wow, has corbyn resigned? Thought this thread was on livingstone.
    Read the thread and you'll find out.
    i see, ken saying hitler was a zionist and making the link between zionism and nazis is just a media conspiracy.
    Like I say read the thread.
  • It's obvious to everybody that Ken Livingstone isn't a racist but he is a crank so Labour are well rid!
  • D_F_T said:

    It's obvious to everybody that Ken Livingstone isn't a racist but he is a crank so Labour are well rid!

    I rather thought you were attracted to cranks!
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  • Livingstone was suspended because he alluded to the Haavara Agreement. Which was a way for German Jews to get out of Germany.
    It was brokered between the Nazi Government and the Zionist Federation of Germany.
    Desperate times, so I can't criticise Jews making the agreement although many Jews (and Nazis) were vehemently opposed to it.
  • iainment said:

    Livingstone was suspended because he alluded to the Haavara Agreement. Which was a way for German Jews to get out of Germany.
    It was brokered between the Nazi Government and the Zionist Federation of Germany.
    Desperate times, so I can't criticise Jews making the agreement although many Jews (and Nazis) were vehemently opposed to it.

    no, he was suspended because he said Hitler was a zionist.
  • Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Yep.

    oh wow, has corbyn resigned? Thought this thread was on livingstone.
    Read the thread and you'll find out.
    i see, ken saying hitler was a zionist and making the link between zionism and nazis is just a media conspiracy.
    Like I say read the thread.
    i still don't see what you think is a media conspiracy. I would have thought the entire issue of anti semitism (and the fact conspiracy theories regularly use anti semitism) would make you re-think that everything is just a conspiracy against corbyn.
  • iainment said:

    Livingstone was suspended because he alluded to the Haavara Agreement. Which was a way for German Jews to get out of Germany.
    It was brokered between the Nazi Government and the Zionist Federation of Germany.
    Desperate times, so I can't criticise Jews making the agreement although many Jews (and Nazis) were vehemently opposed to it.

    no, he was suspended because he said Hitler was a zionist.
    But that isn't what he said though is it.
  • iainment said:

    iainment said:

    Livingstone was suspended because he alluded to the Haavara Agreement. Which was a way for German Jews to get out of Germany.
    It was brokered between the Nazi Government and the Zionist Federation of Germany.
    Desperate times, so I can't criticise Jews making the agreement although many Jews (and Nazis) were vehemently opposed to it.

    no, he was suspended because he said Hitler was a zionist.
    But that isn't what he said though is it.
    "Hitler supported zionism".

    I support charlton athletic, but calling saying I'm an addick is completely not what i said, clearly (!)
  • Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Yep.

    oh wow, has corbyn resigned? Thought this thread was on livingstone.
    Read the thread and you'll find out.
    i see, ken saying hitler was a zionist and making the link between zionism and nazis is just a media conspiracy.
    Like I say read the thread.
    i still don't see what you think is a media conspiracy. I would have thought the entire issue of anti semitism (and the fact conspiracy theories regularly use anti semitism) would make you re-think that everything is just a conspiracy against corbyn.
    No it doesn't mate, the media are out for Corbyn whilst protecting May and her turds, its obvious to a blind man.
    As for Livingstone he is and has always been a sh!t stirrer and loves Ken Livingstone more than the Labour party.
    Same for nearly every Labour leader but if the right wing media is hitting you round the head with a big stick then do something about the stick.

    Instead the left just try to pretend the stick doesn't exist. But it does and it won't go away unless Jeremy Corbyn actually makes a difficult decision, something to appears incapable of doing on this Brexit, Russia or anything else.
  • iainment said:

    iainment said:

    Livingstone was suspended because he alluded to the Haavara Agreement. Which was a way for German Jews to get out of Germany.
    It was brokered between the Nazi Government and the Zionist Federation of Germany.
    Desperate times, so I can't criticise Jews making the agreement although many Jews (and Nazis) were vehemently opposed to it.

    no, he was suspended because he said Hitler was a zionist.
    But that isn't what he said though is it.
    "Hitler supported zionism".

    I support charlton athletic, but calling saying I'm an addick is completely not what i said, clearly (!)
    In the same way political parties come together out of pragmatism to do something. You wouldn't confuse that with being on the same page in all things.
  • iainment said:

    iainment said:

    iainment said:

    Livingstone was suspended because he alluded to the Haavara Agreement. Which was a way for German Jews to get out of Germany.
    It was brokered between the Nazi Government and the Zionist Federation of Germany.
    Desperate times, so I can't criticise Jews making the agreement although many Jews (and Nazis) were vehemently opposed to it.

    no, he was suspended because he said Hitler was a zionist.
    But that isn't what he said though is it.
    "Hitler supported zionism".

    I support charlton athletic, but calling saying I'm an addick is completely not what i said, clearly (!)
    In the same way political parties come together out of pragmatism to do something. You wouldn't confuse that with being on the same page in all things.
    But that’s not what he said, is it? He said “hitler supported Zionism”. No ifs or buts or disclaimers or clauses.
  • Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Yep.

    oh wow, has corbyn resigned? Thought this thread was on livingstone.
    Read the thread and you'll find out.
    i see, ken saying hitler was a zionist and making the link between zionism and nazis is just a media conspiracy.
    Like I say read the thread.
    i still don't see what you think is a media conspiracy. I would have thought the entire issue of anti semitism (and the fact conspiracy theories regularly use anti semitism) would make you re-think that everything is just a conspiracy against corbyn.
    No it doesn't mate, the media are out for Corbyn whilst protecting May and her turds, its obvious to a blind man.
    As for Livingstone he is and has always been a sh!t stirrer and loves Ken Livingstone more than the Labour party.
    Same for nearly every Labour leader but if the right wing media is hitting you round the head with a big stick then do something about the stick.

    Instead the left just try to pretend the stick doesn't exist. But it does and it won't go away unless Jeremy Corbyn actually makes a difficult decision, something to appears incapable of doing on this Brexit, Russia or anything else.
    Exactly. He seems to be perfectly capable of having a position on something he’s had for 30 odd years but seems completely incapable of showing leadership and leading by making difficult decisions. He’s obviously flimsy and the people he surrounds himself with have openly (and continue) to say they wish to completely destroy our current society.
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  • Livingston supported the non Labour candidate in an election years back ---he should havebeen kicked out then as it was a direct breach of party rules-----the Labour party candidate was Una King who just happens to be Jewish.
    of course just a coincidence
  • edited May 2018

    Ken is not actually an anti-Semite as such - he is just a complete twat for bringing the “Hitler was a Zionist” crap to the table.

    Hitler killed six million Jews in horrendous circumstances, not really a great idea to suggest he was a supporter of creating a Jewish homeland when he was killing as many Jews as he could.

    Labour does have a big anti-Semitic issue in its ranks, largely emanating from its support for Palestine which, while fine in itself, does bring some very nasty elements to the table.

    Corbyn has done what he has always done on any issue, vacillate until events take their course.

    Sometimes one wonders how he ever managed to find the gumption to get his sausage up Diane Abbott in the 1970s at all given his lack of firmness in pursuing any tough decision.


    That made me laugh so much I spat out my beer. Thank you.
  • JamesSeed said:

    Leuth said:

    I'm keeping a tally of people saying that this proves Corbyn is a racist

    I certainly don’t think Corbyn is actually racist. But I do think he is very conflicted over a number of issues - the behaviour of Israel’s government being the most apposite example, given his long-time support for the Palestinians. When Corbyn is conflicted he seems to be unable to act and such inaction means journalists jump to conclusions. What Corbyn should have been doing is going full-out on the record about where he stands on many issues - Livingstone, anti-semitism within the Labour Party generally, Brexit.... and if he is going on the record he needs a new press team who are clearly incapable of getting his point into the media.

    Livingstone probably has been able to avoid getting the boot from Labour because his argument is that journalists have emphasised incorrectly what he said. He should have made that clear at the time - but as is the case with Red Ken, why be awkward when with a little more effort you can be bloody impossible.

    Corbyn probably should have made Livingstone the cause of the issue from the very off - not the Labour Party - to avoid the fallout that’s happened.
    Well, exactly, Corbyn doesn’t show leadership when the party needs it. What’s worse is that he clearly doesn’t like or doesn’t want to criticise any of his friends, and a lot of his friends are hard left nutcases.
    Solidgone said:

    Some people tend to mix antisemitism with those that are against the Israeli Government policies. I’m not quite about Ken as I have not read the book he was referring to when he said Hitler was a Zionist. Has any poster read into his quote?

    Referring to the holocaust when talking about israel or Zionism is about as low and insensitive as you can get. It’s like saying there were slave owners who did give black people a decent life and they weren’t all terrible and black people should actually be grateful to those nicer slave owners.

    Criticism of the government of Israel’s policies is not being an “anti zionist”, it’s being a fully functioning, critical thinking human being. Being an “anti Zionist” means you’re vehemently against the state of Israel existing full stop. Zionism is fundamental to a lot of jews’ faith. Much like the idea of paradise is fundamental to other abrahamic religions.

    Proudly stating you’re “anti zionist” but not anti Semitic is a bit like saying you’re pro white pride but you’re not racist. You’re not fooling a lot of people.
    Worth remembering there are plenty of Israelis who are critical of the Israeli government and some of its policies. We don't often get to hear their voices. They know that there can't be peace in the region without a better deal for the Palestinians.
    I agree, but it’s also worth noting the Palestinians have been offered a better deal.. multiple times.
  • edited May 2018
    Corbyn has not handled this well but it isn't because he is anti-semitic. I must admit, I struggle with this myself. Isreal was formed unjustly in my opinion. But it was formed and I don't think it can be unformed and it needs our support and protection. Now some people in the fringes of the Labour party cannot get over the injustice and the unfairness to the Palestinians. But they take this too far and it is right the leadership has to control this better than has been done.

    I still think that we need to understand whether anti-zionism should be conflated with anti-semitism. And am I anti-semitic for being against Isreal's expansions. Some would say I am, and some would say I am not. If I support the fact Isreal should exist, am I even anti-zionist? I note that politicians of all colours were scared to make the out and out criticisms of Isreal their recent actions may have demanded.

    Livingstone was out of order in what he said because he tried to use a poor understanding of events to say Hitler was pro-zionist. This is offensive - many Jews were inhumanly murdered and his statement disrespected that and them.

    The solution has to be a peaceful one and whilst it looks further away than ever, it is possible with the right leaders from Isreal and the middle East fighting for it. The current Isreali government doesn't want peace IMO, but many Isreali's do. We have to tread a path that can bring all sides together.
  • As a Hebrew reader Israeli 'Descender' following this thread, I can't help a sigh in total exasperation at the apparent victory of the Netanyahu regime's propoganda in linking every anti Israeli government criticism with antisemitism (as if Anti African, or anti Islam is any different).
    I wish the rest of the world will familiarize with Some of the statements coming out of respected Israeli Ministers (such as justice minister's Shaked: "Jewish law must be given priority when it conflicts with Human rights"
    Or Regev: "Asylum seekers are a cancer at the heart of our nation", or Netanyahu himself: "the Israeli left has forgotten what's it like to be Jewish)...

    Us Jews are very quick to tell anyone who will (or will not) want to listen how special we are, and to link everything to our Jewishness. However, when its done by non jews we immediately throw Auschwitz in their face.

    Even Holocaust survivors themselves on pointing out the obvious parallels between our treatment of Palestinians and their memories are at best being ridiculed.

    Like most sensible Israelies would be happy if you don't waste anymore guilt and sympathy over us, as Bibi will only use it to justify our own concentration camps in Gaza and the west bank.

    Yes, Zionism sounds like a reasonable enough idea, (until you read the small print such as the 'law of return') but in the words of my late father: "if it means for ever we have to live by the sword than it's a total failure".

    Weather Hitler was a 'Zionist collaborator' back then I'm not convinced.
    He certainly has been recruited now though...

    So, engage with Ken intellectually (yes it is possible) leave name calling to shock jocks and politicians under investigations.

    Absolutely this.
  • edited May 2018

    Solidgone said:

    Some people tend to mix antisemitism with those that are against the Israeli Government policies. I’m not quite about Ken as I have not read the book he was referring to when he said Hitler was a Zionist. Has any poster read into his quote?

    the usual nonsense line trotted out by Labour anti-semites. "Oh, were not anti-semitic, just anti- Israel policies" only they then go on to use the most vile abuse including holocaust denial, repeating the blood libel, talking about world Jewry and the how the Rothchilds and Jews control the world and on and on.

    This is Livingstone track record of anti-antisemitism

    More example of racism from Labour members, officials and candidates

    https://www.facebook.com/labouragainstAS/


    https://twitter.com/LabourAgainstAS
    I've even seen that on here a couple of times. Disgusting.
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