Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
I have no idea....as I said - It's only happened to me half a dozen times mate.
Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
Minimum 15 years for a knife carrying 25 for carrying a gun - you only carry them if your prepared to use them.
The single parent line - does my head in, I was brought up by a single parent done me no harm.
People can change if they want to change.
In the case of a child stupidly carrying a butter knife in his rucksack to school, because he felt frightened by older kids beating hi up for his lunch money every day and taking it on himself to ignore the advice and guidance of his parents - two GPs - to report bullying, but not retaliate, would you think a "minimum of 15 years for a knife carrying" would still be appropriate?
Depends on the knife really for me... Which sounds crazy, but is very sensible. My uncle wears a French folding steak knife/bottle opener on his belt every day.
I take a multitool knife fishing.
These guys carry cooking and hunting knives on a night out on the town.
Seriously a butter knife being carried isn't an issue, however the intended use of it is.
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Apart from entering a football ground and a theme park/concert hall these days, I have never been stopped and searched, then I am not about to burgle someone, steal a car, about to stab or shoot someone...
I would have no issue with it if I did, but I never put myself in a situation where this is likely to happen.
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
I have no idea....as I said - It's only happened to me half a dozen times mate.
Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
Yeah, people who are known to the police (of all ethnicities) often get stopped when they're spotted out and about, but according to some people, that is against their rights.
And even if you're not known so much, but just look like you might be up to no good you could get a tug. We obviously looked a bit dodgy as kids, knocking about the streets and walking home from places, because we'd get stopped and spoken to very regularly (where we're going, where we've been etc.). I'm sure I can remember being pulled over, in a car, twice in one day before.
I genuinely can't see why anyone would have a problem getting stopped even if it was every day, if it meant it would help towards stopping these attacks and murders that are happening far to regularly. I don't think that building more youth centres and employing more youth workers will not deter these kids doing what they're doing at this present moment, maybe it would be something long term, but I think it's far too ingrained in these areas for it to be stopped without using a tough "hands-on" approach. I also think that a lot of people are not aware of the numbers of people involved in these gangs, it's not a matter of 5 to 6 people on every other estate involved....
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
I have no idea....as I said - It's only happened to me half a dozen times mate.
Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
I wasn't talking about "these people", whoever they are. I was interested to know more about your view that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. So, while it must have been mildly frustrating for it to have happened half a dozen times over the years (and, for me, its been far less often than that), it's interesting to find out whether you would still not object if it were half a dozen times a year, or half a dozen times a month, or half a dozen times a week, or even more frequently? And, further, if you still would be happy about the situation if you could see you were being singled out and others weren't.
This isn't meant as a criticism of you, specifically. But it seems that the people who don't think repeatedly being subjected to being singled out for frequent stops and searches are almost always people who aren't stopped and searched very often.
In my view, it's not simply *more* policing that's required (by which I mean continuing to do what's being done, only more frequently), but it's more, *better* policing. I think we need more police and more community police learning, understand and gathering both respect and intelligence about what's going on in any - and every - community. And, in this way, fewer people may be stopped, because fewer people will be carrying.
After all, while nicking people that are carrying is a good thing, it's better not to have people carrying in the first place.
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
I have no idea....as I said - It's only happened to me half a dozen times mate.
Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
I wasn't talking about "these people", whoever they are. I was interested to know more about your view that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. So, while it must have been mildly frustrating for it to have happened half a dozen times over the years (and, for me, its been far less often than that), it's interesting to find out whether you would still not object if it were half a dozen times a year, or half a dozen times a month, or half a dozen times a week, or even more frequently? And, further, if you still would be happy about the situation if you could see you were being singled out and others weren't.
This isn't meant as a criticism of you, specifically. But it seems that the people who don't think repeatedly being subjected to being singled out for frequent stops and searches are almost always people who aren't stopped and searched very often.
In my view, it's not simply *more* policing that's required (by which I mean continuing to do what's being done, only more frequently), but it's more, *better* policing. I think we need more police and more community police learning, understand and gathering both respect and intelligence about what's going on in any - and every - community. And, in this way, fewer people may be stopped, because fewer people will be carrying.
After all, while nicking people that are carrying is a good thing, it's better not to have people carrying in the first place.
Take it from me, I have been stopped loadsa times and I would happily be stopped regularly these days, if it meant stopping the violence. 100% guaranteed fact, it would not bother me on iota
Is there a great deal of difference between stop and search, to having a CCTV camera aimed at you when you get of a train for an away game? This has been going on for years to mainly white people. Whether you pat down my clothing, or monitor my movements at a football match, are both not an invasion of privacy?
I don’t personally even see that as an invasion of privacy. It’s part of the modern world I’m afraid.
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Presumably then, you would have no problem whatsoever if you were stopped and searched every time you went out? Even if the people you were with weren't?
I have no idea....as I said - It's only happened to me half a dozen times mate.
Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
I wasn't talking about "these people", whoever they are. I was interested to know more about your view that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. So, while it must have been mildly frustrating for it to have happened half a dozen times over the years (and, for me, its been far less often than that), it's interesting to find out whether you would still not object if it were half a dozen times a year, or half a dozen times a month, or half a dozen times a week, or even more frequently? And, further, if you still would be happy about the situation if you could see you were being singled out and others weren't.
This isn't meant as a criticism of you, specifically. But it seems that the people who don't think repeatedly being subjected to being singled out for frequent stops and searches are almost always people who aren't stopped and searched very often.
In my view, it's not simply *more* policing that's required (by which I mean continuing to do what's being done, only more frequently), but it's more, *better* policing. I think we need more police and more community police learning, understand and gathering both respect and intelligence about what's going on in any - and every - community. And, in this way, fewer people may be stopped, because fewer people will be carrying.
After all, while nicking people that are carrying is a good thing, it's better not to have people carrying in the first place.
Again.....I’m not sure because it’s hypothetical but I would imagine it’s human nature to be irritated by a repeated action against you if you really have nothing to hide.
I totally agree with you about better ‘policing’ - but this not only refers to the establishment police. The communities need to be much, much better about internal policing in order to stamp this out.
It’s not something that is going to be fixed by outside influence alone.
Minimum 15 years for a knife carrying 25 for carrying a gun - you only carry them if your prepared to use them.
The single parent line - does my head in, I was brought up by a single parent done me no harm.
People can change if they want to change.
In the case of a child stupidly carrying a butter knife in his rucksack to school, because he felt frightened by older kids beating hi up for his lunch money every day and taking it on himself to ignore the advice and guidance of his parents - two GPs - to report bullying, but not retaliate, would you think a "minimum of 15 years for a knife carrying" would still be appropriate?
@Chizz you do always feel the need to go a bit silly, 16+ adults obviously, was quite badly bullied at school myself the worst i done was stab someone in the arm with a compass which got me suspended for a week. the same goes for tradesman they carry knives because there a tool, also a butterknife isn't an offensive weapon is it.
this on the other hand from a recent haul recovered by met police, hardly butter knives
Remember being pulled over with FW once, while driving through Abbey Wood in a van. Apparently there had been a spate of burglaries in the area by blokes (white presumably) in vans, we answered the questions asked and opened the back of the van and were on our was within about 10 minutes. No harm done
Add to that, 20,000 less Police officers, especially grass roots coppers, the ones that are in and around these problem council estates.
And guess who removed all these resources? Yep May and her bunch of useless cronies.
Stop and search will always be an emotive subject, ultimately and unfortunately if you fit into a certain demographic, the demographic that is seen as the major factor in young men and women killing and being killed, then you will get stopped and searched, and if the old bill find one knife or one live gun, then its worthwhile.
If someone is caught carrying, then first offence should be 5 years. Same with the scum carrying bottles of acid.
However as mentioned above, one idea is to legalise cannabis, history tells us that prohibition causes more problems than it supposes cures/stops. Look at the USA in the 20's and 30's, because of prohibition the gangsters were born. Cannabis is not going away so legalise it and you will cut the wealth of these gangs overnight, not all gangs but many. And that would be a start.
If the authorities wanted to crack down on Eastern European sex traffickers, the chances are, they wouldn't be stopping and searching young black lads in the middle of Cherry Orchard, to help with their enquiries.
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
Used to go to a boxing club in Bellingham and the kids session finished before there were about 30 kids from the local estates from ages 8 to 16.
Positive role models, safe environment to learn discipline and structure and vent out controlled aggression with good older male role models running things. Was a great family atmosphere and kept a number of youngsters off the streets for 3 nights at week and given a sense of self esteem , self worth and aspiration.
Pretty much closed down as the founder couldn't cover the rent due to the subsidised nominal fees he'd charge and as far as I know it petered out from what it was.
My dad was in kings after an op and they brought a lad in from the club who had been stabbed and was in the bed next to him and they got chatting and that's how he knew he was from the club.
For the sake of a few grand a year councils like Lewisham could pay the rents on boxing gyms and sports facilities as an investment in its communities and youngsters lives who would get exposure to positive mindsets and culture that boxing and other sports engender and keep them away from the alternatives on offer in areas like many parts of modern London.
Trying to not get political but too late now! Lewisham council in particular has had serious funding cuts (from the government) to the extend that library nearly closed down. Although perhaps if they scrapped the mayor they could use the £80k/annum on things which would benefit the community more?
Understandably there were flowers laid by the cinema in Wood Green where that lad was shot and killed a month or so ago. They’ve been removed now, so there’s no evidence of what happened and no memorial. I had no problem with the flowers, but when people started printing off pictures of the boy, it was awkward. One pic showed him making gun signs with the caption “ready for war”! Well mate, you got what you asked for I guess! Kids need to wise up. Life isn’t a video game, where you have unlimited lives ffs. I’m not a fan of the met, but you can see that they’re fighting a losing battle with this one
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
Your idea feels like rewarding bad behaviour. Wouldn't it be better to offer the decent accomodation, training and jobs to the kids from deprived areas who stay away from criminality and excel in education (showing their contemparies that good behaviour is rewarded) and come down like a tonne of bricks on the boys (and their families) that choose to take the other path.
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
Your idea feels like rewarding bad behaviour. Wouldn't it be better to offer the decent accomodation, training and jobs to the kids from deprived areas who stay away from criminality and excel in education (showing their contemparies that good behaviour is rewarded) and come down like a tonne of bricks on the boys (and their families) that choose to take the other path.
It's usually the way, I can remember sitting through RE at school, looking out the window and watching the naughty kids getting on the coach to go sailing or kayaking. A good few of them are career criminals now and I don't recall a former Eaglesfield boy winning a medal in the kayaking....
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
This has to be the most naive post I have read so far
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
This has to be the most naive post I have read so far
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
Your idea feels like rewarding bad behaviour. Wouldn't it be better to offer the decent accomodation, training and jobs to the kids from deprived areas who stay away from criminality and excel in education (showing their contemparies that good behaviour is rewarded) and come down like a tonne of bricks on the boys (and their families) that choose to take the other path.
So you think that decent housing, well funded schooling, jobs and the prospect of advancement is rewarding good behaviour or am I missing something.
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
Your idea feels like rewarding bad behaviour. Wouldn't it be better to offer the decent accomodation, training and jobs to the kids from deprived areas who stay away from criminality and excel in education (showing their contemparies that good behaviour is rewarded) and come down like a tonne of bricks on the boys (and their families) that choose to take the other path.
No, you offer the decent accommodation, training and jobs to everyone for fuck's sake. What sort of society would you have us live in?
I mean that is Tory morality in a nutshell: a punitive rigged game which rewards selfishness and holds success over one's fellow human as a virtue. I can't wait to vote that shit into oblivion some day soon
Yes. Depends on the knife really for me... Which sounds crazy, but is very sensible. My uncle wears a French folding steak knife/bottle opener on his belt every day.
I take a multitool knife fishing.
These guys carry cooking and hunting knives on a night out on the town.
Seriously a butter knife being carried isn't an issue, however the intended use of it is.
I doubt any short or medium term policy can be anything other than a sticking plaster solution. Until these young people are brought up in decent housing and made to feel included and by that I mean properly educated in well resourced schools with genuine ability to find good work and a place to live then unfortunately they will continue to reject our society.
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
This has to be the most naive post I have read so far
Comments
I’m not saying that I’m anywhere near in the same category of people (or groups of people) who feel they are being targeted by stop and search......but I think it’s happened to me about half a dozen times over the years. I’d done nothing wrong and saw it as a pretty minor inconvenience by the police who I perceived to be just doing their job.
I’m firmly in the “nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” camp.
Are there people who get get searched every time they go out then?
Depends on the knife really for me... Which sounds crazy, but is very sensible. My uncle wears a French folding steak knife/bottle opener on his belt every day.
I take a multitool knife fishing.
These guys carry cooking and hunting knives on a night out on the town.
Seriously a butter knife being carried isn't an issue, however the intended use of it is.
I would have no issue with it if I did, but I never put myself in a situation where this is likely to happen.
And even if you're not known so much, but just look like you might be up to no good you could get a tug. We obviously looked a bit dodgy as kids, knocking about the streets and walking home from places, because we'd get stopped and spoken to very regularly (where we're going, where we've been etc.). I'm sure I can remember being pulled over, in a car, twice in one day before.
I genuinely can't see why anyone would have a problem getting stopped even if it was every day, if it meant it would help towards stopping these attacks and murders that are happening far to regularly. I don't think that building more youth centres and employing more youth workers will not deter these kids doing what they're doing at this present moment, maybe it would be something long term, but I think it's far too ingrained in these areas for it to be stopped without using a tough "hands-on" approach. I also think that a lot of people are not aware of the numbers of people involved in these gangs, it's not a matter of 5 to 6 people on every other estate involved....
This isn't meant as a criticism of you, specifically. But it seems that the people who don't think repeatedly being subjected to being singled out for frequent stops and searches are almost always people who aren't stopped and searched very often.
In my view, it's not simply *more* policing that's required (by which I mean continuing to do what's being done, only more frequently), but it's more, *better* policing. I think we need more police and more community police learning, understand and gathering both respect and intelligence about what's going on in any - and every - community. And, in this way, fewer people may be stopped, because fewer people will be carrying.
After all, while nicking people that are carrying is a good thing, it's better not to have people carrying in the first place.
Job prospects
Education
Housing prospects
Education
I totally agree with you about better ‘policing’ - but this not only refers to the establishment police. The communities need to be much, much better about internal policing in order to stamp this out.
It’s not something that is going to be fixed by outside influence alone.
this on the other hand from a recent haul recovered by met police, hardly butter knives
And guess who removed all these resources? Yep May and her bunch of useless cronies.
Stop and search will always be an emotive subject, ultimately and unfortunately if you fit into a certain demographic, the demographic that is seen as the major factor in young men and women killing and being killed, then you will get stopped and searched, and if the old bill find one knife or one live gun, then its worthwhile.
If someone is caught carrying, then first offence should be 5 years. Same with the scum carrying bottles of acid.
However as mentioned above, one idea is to legalise cannabis, history tells us that prohibition causes more problems than it supposes cures/stops. Look at the USA in the 20's and 30's, because of prohibition the gangsters were born.
Cannabis is not going away so legalise it and you will cut the wealth of these gangs overnight, not all gangs but many. And that would be a start.
Need to follow (follow) what they did in Glasgow.
Don't get this I don't recognise London comments. It's far safer than it was in the 80s/90s, excluding Tottenham of course, that place is a disaster!
I know it’s more complicated than that but what I’m proposing above is something of a right which in all honesty is denied many of them.
So you think that decent housing, well funded schooling, jobs and the prospect of advancement is rewarding good behaviour or am I missing something.