This is obviously a subject that I'm passionate about, so why shouldn't I make a counter argument? I've so far been pulled up for "lashing out" and "spouting off", when all I'm trying to do is challenge a notion that I don't agree with. If people don't want to make decisions on the life and death of animals, for any reason, then they shouldn't keep them surely?
An example - If I rear a cow and it gets fed the best feed in the biggest meadow and the best health care for the 18 - 24 months it's in my care, what is wrong with me then taking the healthy animal out of this world with no pain whatsoever and with it being totally oblivious as to what has happened? If it turns out my next cow has Blackleg and needs to be euthanased at 17 months, what is the difference? The point I'm making isn't that we should all eat meat, as I've always said, people can eat what they want, I'm just trying to challenge the idea that slaughter of animals, using any method, is morally wrong and unethical.
Nb - I've had pets put down over the years and it never gets any easier and the way it's going we might be going down that route in the not too distant future an all
In fairness to most farmers, who do actually care about the welfare of their animals, whilst they can rationalise putting down a sick animal, they will often move heaven and earth beforehand to keep the animal alive (including incurring substantial vet fees for what will essentially be a financial loss).
It's not like having pets, because making a pet of a bull or heifer calf is the sort of thing that will get you killed (confined spaces, with concrete walls, and fully grown cattle that are not wary of you is not a good combination).
You know what the future will be for an animal bred for the table, but you hope to give it the best quality of life possible, just as the better abbatoirs, including halal, will seek to provide the least painful and stressful experience for the animals (partly because it is less stressful for the workers and partly because it provides better quality, more tender, meat).
There have been shockingly bad examples of animal cruelty at abbatoirs (from memory 10-15 years ago there were really bad cases where pigs were being slaughtered), and there is no perfect process to make meat eaters feel better about the process - just as there is no perfect process for the environment, wildlife and diversity in commercial grain, fruit or vegetable production. Grass fed beef and sheep, free range pigs (in an ideal world in forestry or orchards) and chickens live mostly outside, without the requirement of the larger fields necessitated by increasing mechanisation of harvesting (which has generally led to removal of hedgerows, trees and other environments that benefit wildlife); whilst pasture has much less chemical intervention both fertiliser and pesticide than arable crops.
Asda do some cracking mint creams. Cheaper and a class above After 8s. Keep them in the fridge for an extra crunch and a slight hardening of the cream filling.
An example - If I rear a cow and it gets fed the best feed in the biggest meadow and the best health care for the 18 - 24 months it's in my care, what is wrong with me then taking the healthy animal out of this world with no pain whatsoever and with it being totally oblivious as to what has happened?
And this is why it’s so hard to debate with you, Rob.
Once again, there are some people that find this unethical and akin to the murder of a human. Do you acknowledge that? Have you thought PROPERLY about why people hold that view.
I get that you disagree... and I’ve heard you take joy in declaring to the world that you have taken XXX number of non-human lives.
Generally, I hold my tongue and ignore you as you have shown time and again that there’s no point in getting into this with you. Today, however, I was riled by you taking the moral high ground on methods of animal slaughter (which happens to coincide with another issue you enjoy “spouting off” about- Muslims).
Jesus, cheers for the long drawn out character assassination bud
I wouldn't say I enjoy declaring to the world that I take lives at all, in fact I find that I have to tread on eggshells every time I talk about it, but the most ethical way of eating meat imo is to harvest it yourself, so why shouldn't I talk about it when the subject arises in threads like this? Or should it be censored?
I wasn’t asking you not to make a counter argument on the topic in general, it’s just sometimes you can be quite flippant and I was meaning to that specific post.
As for your example, that really comes down to how you perceive the life of a non-human animal. Personally I could never envisage a time where I could spend 18-24 months nurturing an animal and giving it a perfectly beautiful life only to then end that life for the sole purpose of eating it. I would have spent that time bonding with it, getting to know it, learning how to read it’s mood. I would have grown accustomed to it looking to me to look after it, to provide it with comfort and sustenance. I would have stoked it, hugged it and yes, probably given it a few kisses. I would have laughed as I watched it play in the field. I would have taken it to my heart. To then commit the ultimate betrayal and kill it (in whichever ‘acceptable’ way you care to mention) for the sake of a fifteen minute meal which I’ll have forgotten in an hour is just incomprehensible to me. It would be like slitting the throat of a family member.
As I say, that’s just me and maybe I am guilty of over anthropomorphising animals but that’s just how I am.
Slaughtering a well looked after cow is very different from slitting the throat of a family member, isn't it?
I have some sympathy with your views, even if I disagree with them. But equating animal slaughter for food with murdering a relative doesn't help you make your argument.
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
I wasn’t asking you not to make a counter argument on the topic in general, it’s just sometimes you can be quite flippant and I was meaning to that specific post.
As for your example, that really comes down to how you perceive the life of a non-human animal. Personally I could never envisage a time where I could spend 18-24 months nurturing an animal and giving it a perfectly beautiful life only to then end that life for the sole purpose of eating it. I would have spent that time bonding with it, getting to know it, learning how to read it’s mood. I would have grown accustomed to it looking to me to look after it, to provide it with comfort and sustenance. I would have stoked it, hugged it and yes, probably given it a few kisses. I would have laughed as I watched it play in the field. I would have taken it to my heart. To then commit the ultimate betrayal and kill it (in whichever ‘acceptable’ way you care to mention) for the sake of a fifteen minute meal which I’ll have forgotten in an hour is just incomprehensible to me. It would be like slitting the throat of a family member.
As I say, that’s just me and maybe I am guilty of over anthropomorphising animals but that’s just how I am.
Slaughtering a well looked after cow is very different from slitting the throat of a family member, isn't it?
I have some sympathy with your views, even if I disagree with them. But equating animal slaughter for food with murdering a relative doesn't help you make your argument.
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
Equating slaughtering an animal to slitting the throat of a family member is odd, yes.
It is my opinion that any establishment selling Halal meat should be met with the punishment set out in the Animal Welfare Act of 2007:
The Act introduced tougher penalties for neglect and cruelty, including fines of up to £20,000, a maximum jail term of 51 weeks and a lifetime ban.
The act applies to domestic animals but I don't see why dogs and cats should get any preferential treatment to cows.
But if the animal from which that halal meat came was stunned prior to slaughter, as is the case with the vast majority of halal meat, then why is it anymore cruel than non-halal meat?
It is my opinion that any establishment selling Halal meat should be met with the punishment set out in the Animal Welfare Act of 2007:
The Act introduced tougher penalties for neglect and cruelty, including fines of up to £20,000, a maximum jail term of 51 weeks and a lifetime ban.
The act applies to domestic animals but I don't see why dogs and cats should get any preferential treatment to cows.
But if the animal from which that halal meat came was stunned prior to slaughter, as is the case with the vast majority of halal meat, then why is it anymore cruel than non-halal meat?
It just seems that you are in there every few posts as if there was a position to defend.
And when there isnt a rational argument to make there's the pisstake.
The fact is that there is a a lot of anti muslim, xenophobic sentiment on this forum, and it usually comes across in a covert way, in threads like this. I actually think you are none of those things.
Asda do some cracking mint creams. Cheaper and a class above After 8s. Keep them in the fridge for an extra crunch and a slight hardening of the cream filling.
As you were...
Cream filling???? @AFKABartram .... that will upset the vegans.... (just sayin!)
It just seems that you are in there every few posts as if there was a position to defend.
And when there isnt a rational argument to make there's the pisstake.
The fact is that there is a a lot of anti muslim, xenophobic sentiment on this forum, and it usually comes across in a covert way, in threads like this. I actually think you are none of those things.
I was at the PC today and it is a subject that I'm passionate about, it is as simple as that.
It is my opinion that any establishment selling Halal meat should be met with the punishment set out in the Animal Welfare Act of 2007:
The Act introduced tougher penalties for neglect and cruelty, including fines of up to £20,000, a maximum jail term of 51 weeks and a lifetime ban.
The act applies to domestic animals but I don't see why dogs and cats should get any preferential treatment to cows.
But if the animal from which that halal meat came was stunned prior to slaughter, as is the case with the vast majority of halal meat, then why is it anymore cruel than non-halal meat?
It just seems that you are in there every few posts as if there was a position to defend.
And when there isnt a rational argument to make there's the pisstake.
The fact is that there is a a lot of anti muslim, xenophobic sentiment on this forum, and it usually comes across in a covert way, in threads like this. I actually think you are none of those things.
I was at the PC today and it is a subject that I'm passionate about, it is as simple as that.
I don't think I understand the last sentence....?
Last sentence: I don't believe you are xenophobic, but I do think the opportunity to voice the fear of difference emerges in threads like this on this forum.
For me your passion looks like lashing out. That'll be because we have different opinions.
It just seems that you are in there every few posts as if there was a position to defend.
And when there isnt a rational argument to make there's the pisstake.
The fact is that there is a a lot of anti muslim, xenophobic sentiment on this forum, and it usually comes across in a covert way, in threads like this. I actually think you are none of those things.
I was at the PC today and it is a subject that I'm passionate about, it is as simple as that.
I don't think I understand the last sentence....?
Last sentence: I don't believe you are xenophobic.
For me your passion looks like lashing out. That'll be because we have different opinions.
Well there you go, there's probably been some lashing out in my direction in the latter part of this thread, so it's horses for courses
I wasn’t asking you not to make a counter argument on the topic in general, it’s just sometimes you can be quite flippant and I was meaning to that specific post.
As for your example, that really comes down to how you perceive the life of a non-human animal. Personally I could never envisage a time where I could spend 18-24 months nurturing an animal and giving it a perfectly beautiful life only to then end that life for the sole purpose of eating it. I would have spent that time bonding with it, getting to know it, learning how to read it’s mood. I would have grown accustomed to it looking to me to look after it, to provide it with comfort and sustenance. I would have stoked it, hugged it and yes, probably given it a few kisses. I would have laughed as I watched it play in the field. I would have taken it to my heart. To then commit the ultimate betrayal and kill it (in whichever ‘acceptable’ way you care to mention) for the sake of a fifteen minute meal which I’ll have forgotten in an hour is just incomprehensible to me. It would be like slitting the throat of a family member.
As I say, that’s just me and maybe I am guilty of over anthropomorphising animals but that’s just how I am.
Slaughtering a well looked after cow is very different from slitting the throat of a family member, isn't it?
I have some sympathy with your views, even if I disagree with them. But equating animal slaughter for food with murdering a relative doesn't help you make your argument.
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
Equating slaughtering an animal to slitting the throat of a family member is odd, yes.
Its not chizz my wife would rather see some humans suffer than animals
It just seems that you are in there every few posts as if there was a position to defend.
And when there isnt a rational argument to make there's the pisstake.
The fact is that there is a a lot of anti muslim, xenophobic sentiment on this forum, and it usually comes across in a covert way, in threads like this. I actually think you are none of those things.
I was at the PC today and it is a subject that I'm passionate about, it is as simple as that.
I don't think I understand the last sentence....?
Last sentence: I don't believe you are xenophobic.
For me your passion looks like lashing out. That'll be because we have different opinions.
Well there you go, there's probably been some lashing out in my direction in the latter part of this thread, so it's horses for courses
I wasn’t asking you not to make a counter argument on the topic in general, it’s just sometimes you can be quite flippant and I was meaning to that specific post.
As for your example, that really comes down to how you perceive the life of a non-human animal. Personally I could never envisage a time where I could spend 18-24 months nurturing an animal and giving it a perfectly beautiful life only to then end that life for the sole purpose of eating it. I would have spent that time bonding with it, getting to know it, learning how to read it’s mood. I would have grown accustomed to it looking to me to look after it, to provide it with comfort and sustenance. I would have stoked it, hugged it and yes, probably given it a few kisses. I would have laughed as I watched it play in the field. I would have taken it to my heart. To then commit the ultimate betrayal and kill it (in whichever ‘acceptable’ way you care to mention) for the sake of a fifteen minute meal which I’ll have forgotten in an hour is just incomprehensible to me. It would be like slitting the throat of a family member.
As I say, that’s just me and maybe I am guilty of over anthropomorphising animals but that’s just how I am.
Slaughtering a well looked after cow is very different from slitting the throat of a family member, isn't it?
I have some sympathy with your views, even if I disagree with them. But equating animal slaughter for food with murdering a relative doesn't help you make your argument.
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
Equating slaughtering an animal to slitting the throat of a family member is odd, yes.
But I haven’t mentioned anything about slitting a human family members throat. Come on Chizz, you’re not dense. I’m not sure if you’ve had pets in your life but if you have did/do you not consider them ‘family’ in the widest sense of the term?
Pretty certain if I opened that question to the whole CL fraternity then most who have pets would consider them family?
I wasn’t asking you not to make a counter argument on the topic in general, it’s just sometimes you can be quite flippant and I was meaning to that specific post.
As for your example, that really comes down to how you perceive the life of a non-human animal. Personally I could never envisage a time where I could spend 18-24 months nurturing an animal and giving it a perfectly beautiful life only to then end that life for the sole purpose of eating it. I would have spent that time bonding with it, getting to know it, learning how to read it’s mood. I would have grown accustomed to it looking to me to look after it, to provide it with comfort and sustenance. I would have stoked it, hugged it and yes, probably given it a few kisses. I would have laughed as I watched it play in the field. I would have taken it to my heart. To then commit the ultimate betrayal and kill it (in whichever ‘acceptable’ way you care to mention) for the sake of a fifteen minute meal which I’ll have forgotten in an hour is just incomprehensible to me. It would be like slitting the throat of a family member.
As I say, that’s just me and maybe I am guilty of over anthropomorphising animals but that’s just how I am.
Slaughtering a well looked after cow is very different from slitting the throat of a family member, isn't it?
I have some sympathy with your views, even if I disagree with them. But equating animal slaughter for food with murdering a relative doesn't help you make your argument.
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
Equating slaughtering an animal to slitting the throat of a family member is odd, yes.
But I haven’t mentioned anything about slitting a human family members throat. Come on Chizz, you’re not dense. I’m not sure if you’ve had pets in your life but if you have did/do you not consider them ‘family’ in the widest sense of the term?
Pretty certain if I opened that question to the whole CL fraternity then most who have pets would consider them family?
It was the phrase "it would be like slitting the throat of a family member" that gave me the impression you had mentioned slitting a family member's throat. Please accept my apology; and please understand how that confusion was caused.
I wasn’t asking you not to make a counter argument on the topic in general, it’s just sometimes you can be quite flippant and I was meaning to that specific post.
As for your example, that really comes down to how you perceive the life of a non-human animal. Personally I could never envisage a time where I could spend 18-24 months nurturing an animal and giving it a perfectly beautiful life only to then end that life for the sole purpose of eating it. I would have spent that time bonding with it, getting to know it, learning how to read it’s mood. I would have grown accustomed to it looking to me to look after it, to provide it with comfort and sustenance. I would have stoked it, hugged it and yes, probably given it a few kisses. I would have laughed as I watched it play in the field. I would have taken it to my heart. To then commit the ultimate betrayal and kill it (in whichever ‘acceptable’ way you care to mention) for the sake of a fifteen minute meal which I’ll have forgotten in an hour is just incomprehensible to me. It would be like slitting the throat of a family member.
As I say, that’s just me and maybe I am guilty of over anthropomorphising animals but that’s just how I am.
Slaughtering a well looked after cow is very different from slitting the throat of a family member, isn't it?
I have some sympathy with your views, even if I disagree with them. But equating animal slaughter for food with murdering a relative doesn't help you make your argument.
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
Equating slaughtering an animal to slitting the throat of a family member is odd, yes.
But I haven’t mentioned anything about slitting a human family members throat. Come on Chizz, you’re not dense. I’m not sure if you’ve had pets in your life but if you have did/do you not consider them ‘family’ in the widest sense of the term?
Pretty certain if I opened that question to the whole CL fraternity then most who have pets would consider them family?
I consider all the animals I have now, and those I've had in the past, family.
I wasn’t asking you not to make a counter argument on the topic in general, it’s just sometimes you can be quite flippant and I was meaning to that specific post.
As for your example, that really comes down to how you perceive the life of a non-human animal. Personally I could never envisage a time where I could spend 18-24 months nurturing an animal and giving it a perfectly beautiful life only to then end that life for the sole purpose of eating it. I would have spent that time bonding with it, getting to know it, learning how to read it’s mood. I would have grown accustomed to it looking to me to look after it, to provide it with comfort and sustenance. I would have stoked it, hugged it and yes, probably given it a few kisses. I would have laughed as I watched it play in the field. I would have taken it to my heart. To then commit the ultimate betrayal and kill it (in whichever ‘acceptable’ way you care to mention) for the sake of a fifteen minute meal which I’ll have forgotten in an hour is just incomprehensible to me. It would be like slitting the throat of a family member.
As I say, that’s just me and maybe I am guilty of over anthropomorphising animals but that’s just how I am.
Slaughtering a well looked after cow is very different from slitting the throat of a family member, isn't it?
I have some sympathy with your views, even if I disagree with them. But equating animal slaughter for food with murdering a relative doesn't help you make your argument.
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
Equating slaughtering an animal to slitting the throat of a family member is odd, yes.
But I haven’t mentioned anything about slitting a human family members throat. Come on Chizz, you’re not dense. I’m not sure if you’ve had pets in your life but if you have did/do you not consider them ‘family’ in the widest sense of the term?
Pretty certain if I opened that question to the whole CL fraternity then most who have pets would consider them family?
I consider all the animals I have now, and those I've had in the past, family.
If this is a joke then good banter etc. However, if it’s serious then there’s literally no point trying to have any kind of rational discussion with someone who thinks like that.
It is my opinion that any establishment selling Halal meat should be met with the punishment set out in the Animal Welfare Act of 2007:
The Act introduced tougher penalties for neglect and cruelty, including fines of up to £20,000, a maximum jail term of 51 weeks and a lifetime ban.
The act applies to domestic animals but I don't see why dogs and cats should get any preferential treatment to cows.
But if the animal from which that halal meat came was stunned prior to slaughter, as is the case with the vast majority of halal meat, then why is it anymore cruel than non-halal meat?
How are the animals stunned, do we know?
Serious question
They are stunned by the complete and utter ridiculousness of human beings claiming to be the most intelligent animals on the planet whist saying prayers to invented 'gods' to make the meat pure.
Comments
In fairness to most farmers, who do actually care about the welfare of their animals, whilst they can rationalise putting down a sick animal, they will often move heaven and earth beforehand to keep the animal alive (including incurring substantial vet fees for what will essentially be a financial loss).
It's not like having pets, because making a pet of a bull or heifer calf is the sort of thing that will get you killed (confined spaces, with concrete walls, and fully grown cattle that are not wary of you is not a good combination).
You know what the future will be for an animal bred for the table, but you hope to give it the best quality of life possible, just as the better abbatoirs, including halal, will seek to provide the least painful and stressful experience for the animals (partly because it is less stressful for the workers and partly because it provides better quality, more tender, meat).
There have been shockingly bad examples of animal cruelty at abbatoirs (from memory 10-15 years ago there were really bad cases where pigs were being slaughtered), and there is no perfect process to make meat eaters feel better about the process - just as there is no perfect process for the environment, wildlife and diversity in commercial grain, fruit or vegetable production. Grass fed beef and sheep, free range pigs (in an ideal world in forestry or orchards) and chickens live mostly outside, without the requirement of the larger fields necessitated by increasing mechanisation of harvesting (which has generally led to removal of hedgerows, trees and other environments that benefit wildlife); whilst pasture has much less chemical intervention both fertiliser and pesticide than arable crops.
As you were...
I wouldn't say I enjoy declaring to the world that I take lives at all, in fact I find that I have to tread on eggshells every time I talk about it, but the most ethical way of eating meat imo is to harvest it yourself, so why shouldn't I talk about it when the subject arises in threads like this? Or should it be censored?
Rob was talking about a single animal Chizz, not some faceless entity in the huge animal agriculture machine. One animal raised by my hand. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate that if I did that then I would develop an emotional attachment and yes I would consider it to be part of my family. Much like I have grown to consider each and every companion animal I’ve had in my life part of my family. I have shed far more tears over cats and dogs I’ve lost, grieved harder over the loss of pet than I have over distant human family members that I’ve never met. If that makes me a little odd to you then so be it.
Serious question
And when there isnt a rational argument to make there's the pisstake.
The fact is that there is a a lot of anti muslim, xenophobic sentiment on this forum, and it usually comes across in a covert way, in threads like this. I actually think you are none of those things.
I don't think I understand the last sentence....?
For me your passion looks like lashing out. That'll be because we have different opinions.
But I haven’t mentioned anything about slitting a human family members throat. Come on Chizz, you’re not dense. I’m not sure if you’ve had pets in your life but if you have did/do you not consider them ‘family’ in the widest sense of the term?
Pretty certain if I opened that question to the whole CL fraternity then most who have pets would consider them family?