Big Bad World is fine by me, even if his stance on brexit is ambiguous. It may be he posts here because the Millwall forum is more boring, even though the Millwall football is better.
I've 'liked' your post, Seth, even though you threw in your obligatory Brexit remark. Smiley face thing.
Was at the Amersham Arms last night, they have renamed the disabled toilet the gender neutral toilet! Although disabled is a gender neutral word, strange times.
Where does one find the glory hole in a gender neutral bog?
Was at the Amersham Arms last night, they have renamed the disabled toilet the gender neutral toilet! Although disabled is a gender neutral word, strange times.
I remember The Venue up the road had gender neutral toilets on one of the floors years back. Although I reckon that was probably to encourage/ facilitate fingering as opposed to any diversity drive or political statement.
At work we've been told that you shouldn't call it a disabled toilet. Instead it should be called an accessible toilet. That seems daft to me as it suggests that other toilets are inaccessible, which I suppose they may be for someone who is disabled. Still unnecessary and too pc for me as everyone knows what a disabled toilet is.
Live and let live for me. When I have seen and met transgenders in public I find it a little odd, but I guess that’s because it’s only been a more accepted recent occurrence in the public eye. I’m guessing like for people who were gay 40/50 years ago they have had to suffer in silence. Let’s hope those that choose to be that way are accepted and can live the lives they want without any hate
Live and let live for me. When I have seen and met Millwall fans in public I find it a little odd, but I guess that’s because it’s only been a more accepted recent occurrence in the public eye. I’m guessing like for people who were gay 40/50 years ago they have had to suffer in silence. Let’s hope those that choose to be that way are accepted and can live the lives they want without any hate
Fair play @cabbles, not sure everyone will be so understanding
I really can't be bothered to give this subject more than a few seconds of my time but I do strongly feel that the term cis gender makes my teeth grate.
At work we've been told that you shouldn't call it a disabled toilet. Instead it should be called an accessible toilet. That seems daft to me as it suggests that other toilets are inaccessible, which I suppose they may be for someone who is disabled. Still unnecessary and too pc for me as everyone knows what a disabled toilet is.
I've always though 'disabled toilet' was a stupid name as it implies it's not working. 'Toilet for the physically challenged' would be better but you might have pissed yourself by the time you've finished reading it and realised it's the facility you're looking for.
Yawn. Yes perhaps middle aged white men should look at other sections of society for lessons on tolerance, acceptance, progression and diversity.
Maybe elderly women, or even further afield perhaps in Africa and Asia which are well known havens of tolerance for those beyond the status quo and known for warmly embracing change with an open mind.
Lazy generalisation to use the white middle aged male cliche and one that seems to be singularly acceptable with those who would no doubt screech in horror if other forms of generalisation be applied to other sections of society.
Peter Tatchell for example and many other "white middle aged males" are some of the biggest champions of acceptance, equality and tolerance around and some of the most progressive, liberal and diverse societies around the globe are led by/ heavily influenced by white middle aged males.
Lazy generalisation to put all the world's ills at the door of the white middle aged male as they're also responsible for much of it's progress and it's counterproductive to disparage an entire section of society in the hope of advancing the prospects of others.
At work we've been told that you shouldn't call it a disabled toilet. Instead it should be called an accessible toilet. That seems daft to me as it suggests that other toilets are inaccessible, which I suppose they may be for someone who is disabled. Still unnecessary and too pc for me as everyone knows what a disabled toilet is.
Perhaps you could ask the toilet what it identifies as? Can people self identify as disabled even if they're not - this does appear to be happening already when it comes to the use of blue badges for parking.
From a legal perspective if self-identifying becomes the norm then an awful lot of legislation will become unenforceable.
We seem to live in a society where victim status gets you a badge of honour and the over privileged want a piece of the action. The poor and vulnerable will be shoved out of the way by those with a high social media profile who want to claim the limelight.
Not a great fan of hashtags but #firstworldproblem illustrates perfectly the idea of a problem that isn't really a problem in many parts of the world as they have bigger things to deal with.
Big Bad World is fine by me, even if his stance on brexit is ambiguous. It may be he posts here because the Millwall forum is more boring, even though the Millwall football is better.
I've 'liked' your post, Seth, even though you threw in your obligatory Brexit remark. Smiley face thing.
If he (BBW) posted this on that Millwall forum I'd guess he would be politely told to fuck off, whilst on here he gets an educated debate....that's the difference between them and us.
Really don’t care if people want to identify as a toaster or a unicorn, but I suspect that those that do self identify would be really upset that I don’t give a shit, I reckon in most cases it’s about virtual signalling and a craving for attention.
A left wing ardent feminist in my family gets really irked sometimes by the trans community for many reasons.
She is a teacher and even as a live and let live person, when they have assemblies in the gender neutral subject, she sees it as nothing short of promotion for children’s confusion.
For seemingly such a small community, they would seem to have a big voice.
The battle appears to be mainly between a section of the feminist movement and the Trans community. The former are concerned that self-identification will allow men to circumvent protections put in place for women. For example, if a rapist in a man's prison says he self-identifies as a woman, should he be transferred to a woman's prison? What about women only shortlists? I think it's a very interesting debate philosophically but from what I read, it appears that the Trans activists are very well-organised and very determined to shut down discussion by getting opponents (e.g. Germaine Greer, Peter Tatchell) non-platformed and getting others dismissed from their posts or jobs.
A left wing ardent feminist in my family gets really irked sometimes by the trans community for many reasons.
She is a teacher and even as a live and let live person, when they have assemblies in the gender neutral subject, she sees it as nothing short of promotion for children’s confusion.
For seemingly such a small community, they would seem to have a big voice.
Have heard others arguing the same - voice seems out of all proportion to their numbers. You now have transgender women's officers in the Labour Party which seems ridiculous - I'm unclear how someone who was born a man and lived much of their life as a man can suddenly become an advocate for woman.
If you take this argument to its logical conclusion then people will be allowed to identify as anything and expect to be taken seriously and given legal protection. We're trivializing stuff and the big issues in society will just be sidelined.
There are so many gender labels It's become ridiculous and there are obviously people with too much time on their hands. If this continues to proliferate then the education system will be f***ed as the syllabus will become unworkable if the obsession with diversity continues.
A left wing ardent feminist in my family gets really irked sometimes by the trans community for many reasons.
She is a teacher and even as a live and let live person, when they have assemblies in the gender neutral subject, she sees it as nothing short of promotion for children’s confusion.
For seemingly such a small community, they would seem to have a big voice.
If you take this argument to its logical conclusion then people will be allowed to identify as anything and expect to be taken seriously and given legal protection.
In Ireland, anyone over 16 can change gender by signing a form stating that they intend to live the rest of their life as the other gender and then they can change any other documents (birth certificate, driving licence, passport, etc). This can be done in conjunction with changing their name.
This has been the case for three years and so far I don't think the place has collapsed. Currently the only debate there around this topic seems to be whether this possibility should be extended to people under 16.
Anyway. I'd like to address the initial post on this thread, because so far as I can see, it very quickly devolved into "everybody's a wanker" territory. Bullet points:
- Mention the event name yeah? "Transgenderism and the War on Women" sounds pretty damn transphobic to me. It literally posits that trans people are waging a war on "biological" women. If that's not confrontational, then I don't know what is.
- "Feminism is the new masculinity" - I'm intrigued as to how you reach that conclusion, or think others believe that. What "ideological thought processes" are involved? I might be being thick, but I can't see how anyone would reach that conclusion.
- "Concerns of violence by trans activists". I mean, this is possible - even probable - but nowhere is there a specific threat. This is fairly editorialised.
- "Apparently a lot of feminists" okay this is where we start to devolve into "I'm not taking a stance because of the way I'm phrasing things". Apparently - so you can't give a source? "A lot of" - who? "Feminists" - again, who? I'm a feminist in one regard but other feminists would likely hold some very different views to me. It's not one coherent movement; you can't just say "the feminists" much like you can't say "the Chinese" and assume everyone's of the same mindset.
- "Kicking back" good use of slightly evocative language. The war thing's come back into it. Again, "not taking a stance, but really, I am". Clever. I still want to see a source on this btw
- "That will make it legal for a man to self identify as a woman". Er, no, it would be a woman self-identifying as their gender, which is different to their biological sex. Unless there are dickheads out there who decide to "self-identify as a woman" to "make a point". (And I can see that happening tbh)
- Slippery slope - aah, that old chestnut. It's been used since the birth of the women's rights movement, and now it's feminism being accused of it.
In short, yes. It's okay to self identify. I don't see why anyone should give a shit as to the correlation between genitalia and gender. Someone gives preferred pronouns, use them. Don't be like Jordan Anderson and refuse to call someone by their preferred personal pronouns "in pursuit of truth" (that interview btw from a little while ago, did watch it, I disagree with him ideologically and think his usage of the lobster for instance is tenuous at best, but I forgot to write a true response).
What's the "vague and contentious issue" by the way? I don't know what you mean.
- "The same sporting arena" WOAH nope, strawman! I'm pretty sure that's not mentioned in any regard surrounding this event.
For the record though, I agree with you BBW in that transgenderism in sport is a contentious area and personally, I don't see how MtF trans people can truly compete in female events. Every trans person would have different reactions to medications (if they so choose to transition), so yeah, I can't see how that'd be a starter.
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Long and short of it is that trans-exclusionary radical feminists - TERFs - are shitbags. Their idea of what constitutes womanhood is aggressively anti-trans. Also lost are opinions about FtM trans people, who presumably aren't "real men" or whatever.
Being trans isn't a choice. Sure, gender dysphoria might not be medically "real"(?!), but symptoms present, and the trans people I know really REALLY struggled with coming to terms with their gender identity. To suggest they're "less real" or "not real [gender]" is horrible.
Comments
Doesn't affect my life, won't affect yours so I have no idea why people get so up in arms about it.
Maybe elderly women, or even further afield perhaps in Africa and Asia which are well known havens of tolerance for those beyond the status quo and known for warmly embracing change with an open mind.
Lazy generalisation to use the white middle aged male cliche and one that seems to be singularly acceptable with those who would no doubt screech in horror if other forms of generalisation be applied to other sections of society.
Peter Tatchell for example and many other "white middle aged males" are some of the biggest champions of acceptance, equality and tolerance around and some of the most progressive, liberal and diverse societies around the globe are led by/ heavily influenced by white middle aged males.
Lazy generalisation to put all the world's ills at the door of the white middle aged male as they're also responsible for much of it's progress and it's counterproductive to disparage an entire section of society in the hope of advancing the prospects of others.
From a legal perspective if self-identifying becomes the norm then an awful lot of legislation will become unenforceable.
We seem to live in a society where victim status gets you a badge of honour and the over privileged want a piece of the action. The poor and vulnerable will be shoved out of the way by those with a high social media profile who want to claim the limelight.
Not a great fan of hashtags but #firstworldproblem illustrates perfectly the idea of a problem that isn't really a problem in many parts of the world as they have bigger things to deal with.
She is a teacher and even as a live and let live person, when they have assemblies in the gender neutral subject, she sees it as nothing short of promotion for children’s confusion.
For seemingly such a small community, they would seem to have a big voice.
If you take this argument to its logical conclusion then people will be allowed to identify as anything and expect to be taken seriously and given legal protection. We're trivializing stuff and the big issues in society will just be sidelined.
There are so many gender labels It's become ridiculous and there are obviously people with too much time on their hands. If this continues to proliferate then the education system will be f***ed as the syllabus will become unworkable if the obsession with diversity continues.
This has been the case for three years and so far I don't think the place has collapsed. Currently the only debate there around this topic seems to be whether this possibility should be extended to people under 16.
Why is Britain different?
- Mention the event name yeah? "Transgenderism and the War on Women" sounds pretty damn transphobic to me. It literally posits that trans people are waging a war on "biological" women. If that's not confrontational, then I don't know what is.
- "Feminism is the new masculinity" - I'm intrigued as to how you reach that conclusion, or think others believe that. What "ideological thought processes" are involved? I might be being thick, but I can't see how anyone would reach that conclusion.
- "Concerns of violence by trans activists". I mean, this is possible - even probable - but nowhere is there a specific threat. This is fairly editorialised.
- "Apparently a lot of feminists" okay this is where we start to devolve into "I'm not taking a stance because of the way I'm phrasing things". Apparently - so you can't give a source? "A lot of" - who? "Feminists" - again, who? I'm a feminist in one regard but other feminists would likely hold some very different views to me. It's not one coherent movement; you can't just say "the feminists" much like you can't say "the Chinese" and assume everyone's of the same mindset.
- "Kicking back" good use of slightly evocative language. The war thing's come back into it. Again, "not taking a stance, but really, I am". Clever. I still want to see a source on this btw
- "That will make it legal for a man to self identify as a woman". Er, no, it would be a woman self-identifying as their gender, which is different to their biological sex. Unless there are dickheads out there who decide to "self-identify as a woman" to "make a point". (And I can see that happening tbh)
- Slippery slope - aah, that old chestnut. It's been used since the birth of the women's rights movement, and now it's feminism being accused of it.
In short, yes. It's okay to self identify. I don't see why anyone should give a shit as to the correlation between genitalia and gender. Someone gives preferred pronouns, use them. Don't be like Jordan Anderson and refuse to call someone by their preferred personal pronouns "in pursuit of truth" (that interview btw from a little while ago, did watch it, I disagree with him ideologically and think his usage of the lobster for instance is tenuous at best, but I forgot to write a true response).
What's the "vague and contentious issue" by the way? I don't know what you mean.
- "The same sporting arena" WOAH nope, strawman! I'm pretty sure that's not mentioned in any regard surrounding this event.
For the record though, I agree with you BBW in that transgenderism in sport is a contentious area and personally, I don't see how MtF trans people can truly compete in female events. Every trans person would have different reactions to medications (if they so choose to transition), so yeah, I can't see how that'd be a starter.
------------------------------------
Long and short of it is that trans-exclusionary radical feminists - TERFs - are shitbags. Their idea of what constitutes womanhood is aggressively anti-trans. Also lost are opinions about FtM trans people, who presumably aren't "real men" or whatever.
Being trans isn't a choice. Sure, gender dysphoria might not be medically "real"(?!), but symptoms present, and the trans people I know really REALLY struggled with coming to terms with their gender identity. To suggest they're "less real" or "not real [gender]" is horrible.
Well confused.