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Harry Kane Incidents(s) v Liverpool


The incidents involving Harry Kane in the game v Liverpool on Sunday were. to me, unique and therefore worthy of their own thread. Let me explain.

There are two type of incidents in the game of football. First, those that can be clearly defined in the narrative of the Laws of the Game that are absolute and leave no room for individual interpretation. Then there are those that are a matter of personal opinion but the referee is the sole arbiter in a match situation. We had both of those incidents within seconds of each other in the Spurs v Liverpool game and I cannot ever remember that happening before; hence it's uniqueness.

So far as the "offside" incident is concerned, the analysis has been done to death on TV, but perhaps not explained to well to overcome all doubters; so let me continue. First, in the body of the text of the Offside Law (Law 11) there is the statement along the lines of "a player should not necessarily be penalised for standing in an offside position". We therefore have to consider whether Harry Kane was interfering with play when he received the ball to enable us to make a decision. "Interfering with Play" is defined within the Law Interpretations further down in the document and I quote verbatim - "Interfering with play means playing or touching the ball passed or touched by a team mate". In this instant Harry Kane received the ball having been touched by an opponent - a clear case for not being penalised. No debate, an absolute nailed down decision.

We now move on to the incident with the "clash" with the goalkeeper and whether or not a penalty should have been awarded. This is clearly a case of being down to personal opinions. My own interpretation of the things that need to be considered to arrive at a decision are as follows. My personal interpretation of a dive (or simulation) is one where there is no contact whatsoever, such as the Delli Ali incident in the same game where he was rightly cautioned. Harry Kane was clearly "touched" but no dive in my opinion. So we all have to weigh up the level of contact to decide whether or not there was sufficient contact to impede the progress of Harry Kane (incidentally, Kane going to ground was neither here nor there in terms of decision making re contact levels, although some may consider that doing so makes it easier for the referee to award a penalty).

Over to you!!
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Comments

  • That’s a helpful analysis Peter.

    I must admit to some confusion about the modern offside law.

    Based on the above, if a player (let’s call him Big Josh) is standing 15 yards offside on the penalty spot when a long shot comes in and is parried by the goalie, he can calmly stroke the rebound into the net and claim a goal? That seems odd to me, as he has surely gained a big advantage by being in that offside position in the first place (as did Kane of course). Or is there another part of the law that’s relevant here?
  • Has it taken you 3 days to write this ;)

    1. Surely offside is irrelevant as Lovren got a touch? the one before didn't make a difference as he hasn't played anything but Lovren he tried to clear so the intent was there.
    2. Soft one, could see a case either way as Van D did play the ball but was too late to pull out (i am sure there is a joke there somewhere)

    LOL though cant stand Liverpool and their fans, shame they didnt lose it

  • Why is this in the General Charlton category?
  • Canada here score a 94th minute equaliser against the USA only for the ref to disallow it for offside, even though the last touch came off a US defender.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ani9Wkx-TE
  • He's a cheat.
  • I just find liverpool fans just so two faced. For years they have had penalties given to them, particularly at the cop end. Barnes, aldridge and co forever fell over.
  • AshBurton said:

    That’s a helpful analysis Peter.

    I must admit to some confusion about the modern offside law.

    Based on the above, if a player (let’s call him Big Josh) is standing 15 yards offside on the penalty spot when a long shot comes in and is parried by the goalie, he can calmly stroke the rebound into the net and claim a goal? That seems odd to me, as he has surely gained a big advantage by being in that offside position in the first place (as did Kane of course). Or is there another part of the law that’s relevant here?

    The offside law is a nightmare. In your case @AshBurton I knew it was offside, but I had to look it up for a clear interpretation as I couldn't myself put it into words.

    This covers it - verbatim: offside by gaining an advantage by being in that position "that rebounds, is deflected or is played to him from a deliberate save by an opponent, having been in a offside position".

    I think the key difference in the two scenarios is the word "save". As I say, a minefield!
  • Why is this in the General Charlton category?

    Sorry if this is not the "best fit"
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  • PeterGage said:

    AshBurton said:

    That’s a helpful analysis Peter.

    I must admit to some confusion about the modern offside law.

    Based on the above, if a player (let’s call him Big Josh) is standing 15 yards offside on the penalty spot when a long shot comes in and is parried by the goalie, he can calmly stroke the rebound into the net and claim a goal? That seems odd to me, as he has surely gained a big advantage by being in that offside position in the first place (as did Kane of course). Or is there another part of the law that’s relevant here?

    The offside law is a nightmare. In your case @AshBurton I knew it was offside, but I had to look it up for a clear interpretation as I couldn't myself put it into words.

    This covers it - verbatim: offside by gaining an advantage by being in that position "that rebounds, is deflected or is played to him from a deliberate save by an opponent, having been in a offside position".

    I think the key difference in the two scenarios is the word "save". As I say, a minefield!
    The key word there is or surely. Far from nailed down, I'd say.
  • The laws are now based upon subjectivity.....what one set of of officials will accept at The Valley a few miles down the road, at The Toolbox, at exactly the same time and with the same set of circumstances will not be accepted.....or vice a versa.
    It’s too important a law to be subjective, IMHO it should be black or white.
  • PeterGage said:

    AshBurton said:

    That’s a helpful analysis Peter.

    I must admit to some confusion about the modern offside law.

    Based on the above, if a player (let’s call him Big Josh) is standing 15 yards offside on the penalty spot when a long shot comes in and is parried by the goalie, he can calmly stroke the rebound into the net and claim a goal? That seems odd to me, as he has surely gained a big advantage by being in that offside position in the first place (as did Kane of course). Or is there another part of the law that’s relevant here?

    The offside law is a nightmare. In your case @AshBurton I knew it was offside, but I had to look it up for a clear interpretation as I couldn't myself put it into words.

    This covers it - verbatim: offside by gaining an advantage by being in that position "that rebounds, is deflected or is played to him from a deliberate save by an opponent, having been in a offside position".

    I think the key difference in the two scenarios is the word "save". As I say, a minefield!
    Thanks, that's a big relief as I've given a few of these offside when running the line in junior football. Got pelters from the parents and the opposing team's manager came and stood on my toes for the rest of the match, even though his side won 23-0. It's an enjoyable and rewarding task.
  • The laws are now based upon subjectivity.....what one set of of officials will accept at The Valley a few miles down the road, at The Toolbox, at exactly the same time and with the same set of circumstances will not be accepted.....or vice a versa.
    It’s too important a law to be subjective, IMHO it should be black or white.

    I agree. They have made the offside law so confusing that you have ex-pros openly confessing to not being sure, and Peter, a ref, having to look up - and weigh up - the law before being able to come to a conclusion. I actually feel sorry for the officials. Heaven knows what it is like nowadays at Sunday League level.This law is not fit for purpose any more, much like the game's administrators.
  • can't see the issue personally, both were penalties, end of.
  • PeterGage said:

    AshBurton said:

    That’s a helpful analysis Peter.

    I must admit to some confusion about the modern offside law.

    Based on the above, if a player (let’s call him Big Josh) is standing 15 yards offside on the penalty spot when a long shot comes in and is parried by the goalie, he can calmly stroke the rebound into the net and claim a goal? That seems odd to me, as he has surely gained a big advantage by being in that offside position in the first place (as did Kane of course). Or is there another part of the law that’s relevant here?

    The offside law is a nightmare. In your case @AshBurton I knew it was offside, but I had to look it up for a clear interpretation as I couldn't myself put it into words.

    This covers it - verbatim: offside by gaining an advantage by being in that position "that rebounds, is deflected or is played to him from a deliberate save by an opponent, having been in a offside position".

    I think the key difference in the two scenarios is the word "save". As I say, a minefield!
    2 points in response to this;

    - Is Kane not interfering with play? Lovren wouldn't have attempted the clearance had he not been there (in an offside position).
    - Lovren effectively deflected a Tottenham pass. It's not as if he tried to pass the ball back to the keeper and found Kane.

    The law is not right.
  • Ah the modern game of what ifs

    1. He is offside
    2. He went down to easily for my liking no penalty
  • How much contact does there have to be ? a broken leg ?
  • Why is this in the General Charlton category?

    It's the "General Charlton" police.
  • PeterGage said:


    In this instant Harry Kane received the ball having been touched by an opponent - a clear case for not being penalised. No debate, an absolute nailed down decision.

    Let's say the attacking team play a long ball to the center forward. When the ball is played he is 10 meters offside.
    Then a defender turns around, desperately chasing the ball and just manage to touch the ball, but not enough to prevent the ball to reach the center forward, who then scores.
    Is this not offside then? How long must the referee wait to make a decision? I mean there is always a chance there'll be a touch when a long ball is played.
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  • How much contact does there have to be ? a broken leg ?

    No but a bit more than I've poked this a bit wide I'll go down
  • edited February 2018

    PeterGage said:


    In this instant Harry Kane received the ball having been touched by an opponent - a clear case for not being penalised. No debate, an absolute nailed down decision.

    Let's say the attacking team play a long ball to the center forward. When the ball is played he is 10 meters offside.
    Then a defender turns around, desperately chasing the ball and just manage to touch the ball, but not enough to prevent the ball to reach the center forward, who then scores.
    Is this not offside then? How long must the referee wait to make a decision? I mean there is always a chance there'll be a touch when a long ball is played.
    It was so much easier when the Law said something like:

    A player in an offside position when the ball is played is offside, unless .......


    Mind you, we still argued about it back then lol

  • Who was it that said if you’re not interfering with play then what are you doing on the pitch? I subscribe to that simple yet apparently outdated view.
  • I remember probably about 20 odd years ago at a reserve game at Welling when John Robinson threw himself into the goal just before a shot come in so he was off the pitch and not offside. Goal stood.
  • WSS said:

    I remember probably about 20 odd years ago at a reserve game at Welling when John Robinson threw himself into the goal just before a shot come in so he was off the pitch and not offside. Goal stood.

    You're not allowed to leave the pitch without the referees permission, so it should have been disallowed.
  • DRAddick said:

    Who was it that said if you’re not interfering with play then what are you doing on the pitch? I subscribe to that simple yet apparently outdated view.

    I think it was Brian Clough.
  • WSS said:

    I remember probably about 20 odd years ago at a reserve game at Welling when John Robinson threw himself into the goal just before a shot come in so he was off the pitch and not offside. Goal stood.

    You're not allowed to leave the pitch without the referees permission, so it should have been disallowed.
    You best let the Barnet Reserves Class of '97 know.
  • WSS said:

    WSS said:

    I remember probably about 20 odd years ago at a reserve game at Welling when John Robinson threw himself into the goal just before a shot come in so he was off the pitch and not offside. Goal stood.

    You're not allowed to leave the pitch without the referees permission, so it should have been disallowed.
    You best let the Barnet Reserves Class of '97 know.
    Genuine 'lol'
  • edited February 2018

    DRAddick said:

    Who was it that said if you’re not interfering with play then what are you doing on the pitch? I subscribe to that simple yet apparently outdated view.

    I think it was Brian Clough.
    Bill Shankly I believe?
    Though not 100% sure.
  • DRAddick said:

    Who was it that said if you’re not interfering with play then what are you doing on the pitch? I subscribe to that simple yet apparently outdated view.

    I think it was Brian Clough.
    Bill Shankly I believe?
    Though not 100% sure.
    I thought it was Jack Charlton.
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