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Catalan Independence vote

Probably not getting the coverage of Brexit or hurricane Irma but it's all set to go off here, The Catalan seperatist movement have been pushing for this ever more insistantly for years, despite the fact they have always been a minority in Catalunya. They have now pushed ahead with a referéndum, declared ilegal (the Spanish constitution, signed by the Catalans, refutes it) which will probably take place in some form on sunday.
The Spanish government are putting ever more obstacles in place, and the temperatura is rising as politicians on both sides have merrily painted themselves into corners they will have terrible difficulty getting out of without losing a lot of face. Madrid have grabbed loads of voting papers, begun to order schools thought to be used as poll stations to be closed on sunday, and demanded the Catalan pólice (the Mossos d'Esquadra) get behind law and order against the vote. In Catalunya, the papers continue to be distributed and the Catalans are planning if all else fails to vote with cardboard boxes in the Street. Just to put the thing on to boil, they have also declared that any sort of yes majority, without any sort of caucus or control, will automatically lead to a declaration of independance within 48 hours. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a coup d'etat.
On the No side, the other parties have told everyone not to vote to avoid legitimising what looks like a pretty dodgy referéndum - one that would look shabby in North Korea let alone southern Europe. I watched Brexit from here and the arguements used (and the lies told) were pathetic, but here we have not even heard a debate, just a whole load of rhetoric straight out of Braveheart.
Tis may all blow over, but sunday will almost certainly involve a yes vote, despite almost no one having been advised they are called to vote, or even to work in the polling stations. From there, the logical step would be the Independance declaration, which would be unlikely to have much credit outside the Catalan borders.
Anyone over in Brexit land got an opinión?
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Comments

  • No pasaran!
  • Interesting stuff Ken. I love visiting Spain but really need to spend some time reading up on the politics over there, as what little I know about it baffles me. As well as the Basque Country and Catalonia, I believe some of the other, smaller, regions have political parties (albeit poorly supported ones) that aspire towards independence from Spain.

    I would imagine Catalonia is the only region that could realistically support itself financially if it became independent from Spain. The election you're describing sounds ridiculous though - if it really is as unregulated as you've described then it'll be a landslide "Yes" vote as the leavers will probably be the only ones who'd take the time to vote in an election that lacks any official credibility.

    I'm inclined to think that the Spanish government should let the Catalans have an official referendum, on the basis that the inevitable "Remain" majority vote would put the issue to bed, but I guess that's what David Cameron's thinking was before the Brexit referendum.
  • Arriving for a golf holiday next Tuesday in Cambrils. Hope there’s no hassle.
  • edited September 28
    Maybe the Spanish government should do the right thing and declare a proper referendum. Getting what they deserve.
    If they’re confident it wouldn’t win, as polls show, then why create all this hassle?
  • edited September 28
    If the people want independence then it's up to them. However the legitimacy of going ahead with a referendum is somewhat blighted by the fact The Catalan governments own pre referendum survey showed that 49% were against a referendum and 41% for.
  • DRAddick said:

    If the people want independence then it's up to them. However the legitimacy of going ahead with a referendum is somewhat blighted by the fact The Catalan governments own pre referendum survey showed that 49% were against a referendum and 41% for.

    Did the other 10% not give a shit?
  • Arriving for a golf holiday next Tuesday in Cambrils. Hope there’s no hassle.

    You might get a stamp in your passport !
  • DRAddick said:

    If the people want independence then it's up to them. However the legitimacy of going ahead with a referendum is somewhat blighted by the fact The Catalan governments own pre referendum survey showed that 49% were against a referendum and 41% for.

    Did the other 10% not give a shit?
    That's usually the case, along with the don't knows.
  • I am going to go out there and help them become free men and women viva la brexit viva la cataleixit
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  • Both sides aren't coming out of this very well, the example of Scotland shows how it should be done, a proper vote with both sides getting a fair say. The referendum may have debatable legitimacy, but the actions of the Spanish authorities aren't fitting of a modern democracy
  • Fucking hell Ken. As if we ain't got enough politix on ere already!

  • Now we just need a thread on the Iraqi Kurdistan referendum and we'll have a full house ;)
  • Independence for London :smiley:
  • I certainly agree with @killerandflash that neither side is coming out with a great deal of credit. There was an election in 2014 which in Catalunya was debated almost entirely as an Independence vote. Independence got more seats in the parliament, but staying in Spain got more votes. The Independence movement used their seats to keep pushing. At that point, the Spanish government could have offered some dialogue which would have swung quite a few away, but they refused point blank. They have now offered dialogue but the Catalans are saying that time is long gone and besides, they won't be offered anything worthwhile and Madrid never keep their promises.
    I had a few Charlton supporting mates over at the weekend, who were impressed to find themselves in a sort of 1936 pre civil war ambience, with pubs and craft ales. One of them offered a good point that these days, a lot of elections tend to get swayed by passion rather than arguement. Certainly true now as given the Spanish governments somewhat heavy handed responses, they wouldn't dare offer a referéndum until passions have subsided a lot, which doesn't look likely. Besides, how many modern states are prepared to let themselves be dismembered by the richest áreas breaking away. Should the Catalans achieve Independence, the Basques with their long history of antipathy to Madrid, would demand to follow.
    I've sort of found myself siding passively with Madrid. The Independence movement have (in my opinión) been a lot cleverer tan Madrid. They now seem to be hell bent in provoking reactions, which inevitably occur, and which are then denounced as a return to dictatorship. However, essentially, the Generalitat (Catalan Parliament) have broken the law by carrying the referéndum through, which is a pretty dodgy way for a law making body to behave. The consequences provoked look to me like the typical reaction the rest of us get when we drive too fast or fraudulently declare taxes, but then my blood is pure South London, not Catalunya, so the Deep passions aren't mine.
    I'm sort of hoping this thread doesn't get mixed with Brexit (although the only person who has mentioned it so far is me) but I'm also hoping to hear from @CharltonMadrid for a view from the capital, as I remember previously his view on the contributions to Spain made by Catalunya don't coincide with mine or the population here. Bit of input from Madrid would be wlecome.
  • Never mind the politics, imagine the great Spanish football team of the 2000s without all the Catalan Barcelona players!
  • That was another point we discussed at the weekend. Money says Barcelona will continue to play in La Liga, which would be horribly reduced to Scottish levels by the removal of Real Madrid's most powerfull opponent. However, Independence fury might mean the Spanish telling FCB to do one, and enjoy playing the likes of Sabadell and Palamos in a mostly empty Camp Nou. A mate suggested they might play in France, but as the Catalan region extends there, the French might not welcome a bunch of people who would end up demanding Perpignan be attached to the Catalan republic.
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  • let them leave go on the catalans
  • I'm interested to know if non Catalans' Spanish rights will be protected if independence is 'won' and they choose to stay in the independent state/republic.

    It would be abhorrent to think that they'd have to live by the law of the land they live in.

    I'll watch this one very closely.
  • Very aware I see this through the prism of living in Madrid and through the media coverage here but I remain very sceptical about the real intentions behind this. I would understand more if Catalans were being oppressed but like each region they already have much the same autonomy as many countries. Seems to be more about wanting to not send as much money to the poorer regions of Spain, but gets promoted as a struggle for liberty. Besides I am very suspicious about any form of nationalism and attempts to divide people based on ethnicity. Both sides have engaged in a total simplification of the debate and the Spanish government's suppressing of it has obviously encouraged the feelings of victimhood which has played into the separatist argument.

    Although the vote is non-binding, if it is a Yes it will likely be carried by smaller towns and the Girona/Lleida region rather than the more cosmopolitan Barcelona. Be very interesting to see what happens, and also how the Basque region reacts as a marker for their own independence hopes.
  • bobmunro said:

    Bloody little Catalonians and their non island mentality.

    I take it they'll kick out all of the non Catalans, if they become independent, to show just how insular they are and that no outsiders are welcome.

    Any news on how the border with the rest of Spain will work?

    Seth is your man on that one.
    Do you have any supporting evidence that suggests he'll have an interest? :wink:
  • How many degrees of separation is there between nationalism and fascism?
  • seth plum said:

    How many degrees of separation is there between nationalism and fascism?

    About the same amount as there is between fascism and anti-fascism.
  • Good luck to them, whatever the majority wants should happen.
  • seth plum said:

    How many degrees of separation is there between nationalism and fascism?

    About the same amount as there is between fascism and anti-fascism.
    I (unsurprisingly) disagree.
    Even though he fought in Burma in the end my father was prepared to be part of the biggest anti fascist force this country has ever seen.
    He used to go to Millwall one week and Charlton the next back in the day.
  • Dazzler21 said:

    Good luck to them, whatever the majority wants should happen.

    The majority of Catalan, or Spain? If you're going to break up a country, everyone in it should have a say, IMO.
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