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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    I get the impression from most brexiteers that they don't give a tinkers toss how much it costs as long as they come out of Europe. I'm convinced they'd vote the same again irrespective of cost.

    I would... Junckers 'one nation army' 'one president' , and the federal reserve of deutschland running it all just backs up the reason why i did. Surprised james o brien hasnt mentioned this yet on lbc... Then of course he wouldnt.
  • Great thing about the German election is that Merkel down to 33% of the vote ( May got 42%) weakens the move to federalism and makes it a little more likely that Germany will tone down the current 'Britain must be punished' attitude of the unelected EU officials.
  • Southbank said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    I get the impression from most brexiteers that they don't give a tinkers toss how much it costs as long as they come out of Europe. I'm convinced they'd vote the same again irrespective of cost.

    That is certainly my view. Because having studied history I have come to the conclusion that I would rather live in a democratic country than one governed by an appointed elite.
    But feel free to want to be a serf instead.
    In practical terms, what adverse impact has being governed by an appointed elite had on you? Just curious.
  • Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    You are right of course and the whole process is being carried out in reverse order:
    First we had the vote, then invoking Article 50 and now we have the negotiation on leaving which will then be followed by planning for what things look like on April Fools' day 2019,

    Obviously Cameron should have set up working parties and an entire department to investigate the options BEFORE the vote and this may well have influenced what went onto the ballot paper. For there are clearly three options: Remain in the EU, a Norway style deal or leave everything.

    The costs and implications should have been debated by Parliament and only then put to a referendum if Parliament saw fit. Funnily enough, this is how we entered in the first place.

    We are where we are and fortunately the adults in the process aka M.Barnier are insisting that May and Davis answer the three exam questions about Brexit bills, the Irish Border and the three million EU citizens. It is only now that we are going through all of the detail where the government have to explain how they will execute Brexit. The longer they refuse, the less time there is for a deal.

    The irony is that proposals re. the Irish border imply what the final arrangement might look like. But the Tories cannot decide upon mutually exclusive options without splitting the party.

    Normally when changes of this magnitude occur, an army of civil servants and consultants get together to come up with some plans and budget which invariably cost twice as much as predicted, take twice as long but are supervised and modified by elected politicians BEFORE being signed off. In this case there is a deadline and without an agreement on the Irish border it is possible that there will be no extension.

    Another angle which came to my attention earlier today is that of the DUP. This article in the Irish Times suggests that the DUP might not support the government all the way through:
    Fintan O'Toole on the DUP and Brexit

    If the DUP supports this then they risk losing support in the polls. Likewise the Conservatives are now stuck 4% behind Labour and that may well increase if Labour plays its cards right.

    The only sensible workable Brexit option is that which Varoufakis recommended last April after Article 50 was invoked. He has been out to bat with the EU and lost. Badly!

    And the solution is a Norway style deal whilst remaining in the Custom's Union. Or what Farage calls "Brexit in name only". The point is that Farage is looking to set up a new party if the Anti-Islam candidate wins the UKIP leadership race... and it's likely that he might go on to poll 15% - the same as AfD in Germany and VVP in the Netherlands.

    But polls show that 66% of the electorate support staying in the Single Market and Customs Union thus ensuring no change nor threat to jobs, exports and the economy.

    We should respect that 52% voted leave. But half the leavers want to leave the Customs Union while half are with Remain and want to stay. That's where the Labour Party is and it's working for them.

    And the clock keeps ticking...
  • Southbank said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    I get the impression from most brexiteers that they don't give a tinkers toss how much it costs as long as they come out of Europe. I'm convinced they'd vote the same again irrespective of cost.

    That is certainly my view. Because having studied history I have come to the conclusion that I would rather live in a democratic country than one governed by an appointed elite.
    But feel free to want to be a serf instead.
    The only nation that doesn't pool sovereignty in any way would be North Korea!

    We never were and never will be in the Eurozone so talk of movement to a federal super state is irrelevant to us.

    We actually have a lot in common with Norway and Sweden who have kept their own currencies. One is in the EU while the other is in the EEA and single market.

    Do you have an issue with being in the single market with one set of regulations and what's the alternative?

    If we're not careful we will have no deals with anybody in March 2019!
  • The USA has imposed a 220% tariff on Aircraft Manufacturers Bombardier who employ 4000 people in Northern Ireland.
    So our leaving the EU and striking deals elsewhere is starting to look like a good prospect...not.
    The Tory deal with the DUP is starting to look good...not.
    Never mind Boris Johnson will sort it out...not.
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  • seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    The irony of posting this not long after protesting about being classed a simpleton.
  • rananegra said:

    Brexit - too early to tell I reckon. The thing with it is that it at one stroke will remove the excuse our inept rulers have used for all my adult life - it's all the fault of Europe. A lot of the things that most exercised people about the EU were always things within our national govt's control, they just chose not to and blame the EU. I know people who voted out because of Health and safety regulations. The EU might have called for there to be H&S regulations but they were implemented in a British setting by British politicians and civil servants.

    My biggest fear is that the extreme Brexiters will never stop moaning when the inevitable compromises have to be made and come out with a narrative of "it would all be fine and dandy if it wasn't for those treacherous sellouts who negotiated a trade deal..."



    I said the very same thing before the referendum - the EU has always been a useful scapegoat for the rich and powerful to trick people into blaming all their problems on. Once it becomes irrevocably evident that the EU was not the source of our problems, the Brexiters will simply move onto the next scapegoat that the Sun and the Mail tell them to hate.
  • You'll find that the working classes in large parts of urban Britain have blamed the EU- specifically eastern EU countries - for sending their workers over here and 'taking their jobs'.

    They've seen it with their own eyes and don't need the rich and powerful to dupe them.

    Blair's regime have a lot to answer for, not that they ever will when its easier to deny their role in the current situation or blame The Scum and the Daily Fail.
  • You'll find that the working classes in large parts of urban Britain have blamed the EU- specifically eastern EU countries - for sending their workers over here and 'taking their jobs'.

    They've seen it with their own eyes and don't need the rich and powerful to dupe them.

    Blair's regime have a lot to answer for, not that they ever will when its easier to deny their role in the current situation or blame The Scum and the Daily Fail.

    Wasnt Blair quoted recently as saying that his policy of unlimited immigration was wrong?
  • You'll find that the working classes in large parts of urban Britain have blamed the EU- specifically eastern EU countries - for sending their workers over here and 'taking their jobs'.

    They've seen it with their own eyes and don't need the rich and powerful to dupe them.

    Blair's regime have a lot to answer for, not that they ever will when its easier to deny their role in the current situation or blame The Scum and the Daily Fail.

    The disaffected may well feel that way, but do the unemployed feel it, because it is they who might feel aggrieved regarding their jobs? Yet the Tories bang on about record employment at the moment, even if it is with zero hour work in the gig economy. If a worker in large parts of urban Britain is employed, as it seems they are, I wonder what motivates their thinking...the media...dislike of foreigners...poverty?
  • That is what they want. Labour is a commodity to their rich friends not people's lives.
  • edited September 2017

    Given the overwhelming evidence that it's a disaster of biblical proportions, that none of the supporters actually know what they really voted for, what it means or what they actually want as a final outcome, even intelligent Brexiters come across as very, very stupid. As for the ones who are already stupid...

    I'll leave you to it now.


    I got a flag from charltonj? Are you offended because you are stupid, or very, very stupid? Just for the record... :lol: :wink:
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  • Given the overwhelming evidence that it's a disaster of biblical proportions, that none of the supporters actually know what they really voted for, what it means or what they actually want as a final outcome, even intelligent Brexiters come across as very, very stupid. As for the ones who are already stupid...

    I'll leave you to it now.


    I got a flag from charltonj? Are you offended because you are stupid, or very, very stupid? Just for the record... :lol: :wink:
    sorry mate I always manage to flag people on my crap phone, taken it off.
  • I've created a monster.

    Only one thing left do

    https://goo.gl/images/bBkCQT
  • edited September 2017
    I've created a monster.

    Only one way out.

    https://goo.gl/images/bBkCQT
  • David Davies returns to London after completing Brexit negotiations.
    image

    lol .. but we still won !!
  • Given the overwhelming evidence that it's a disaster of biblical proportions, that none of the supporters actually know what they really voted for, what it means or what they actually want as a final outcome, even intelligent Brexiters come across as very, very stupid. As for the ones who are already stupid...

    I'll leave you to it now.


    I got a flag from charltonj? Are you offended because you are stupid, or very, very stupid? Just for the record... :lol: :wink:
    Perhaps it was for bullshitting and shite stirring in one post?
  • edited October 2017
    stonemuse said:

    David Davies returns to London after completing Brexit negotiations.
    image

    So negative :wink:

    The truth is below:

    no .. that's Grimsby ((:>)image
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Roland Out!