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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • edited September 2017
    seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.

    seriously .. open the borders for millions to settle in the UK, with free access to the NHS, subsidised accommodation, free education for their children, more competition for British people for all manner of jobs, state paid benefits for those that cannot or will not find work ? ..
    Have you have fully thought through this desire of yours, or is it just another top of the head piece of nonsense chatter ?

    My point is that it is Theresa May who announced an open door policy with the EU last Friday in Florence. You say 'this desire of yours', but turns out to be the desire of hers.
    Take it up with her, not my top of the head nonsense chatter but an announcement by the Prime Minister of the UK.
    you stated ' ... will thankfully continue. I hope that other planks of Brexit can be similarly abandoned' .. . your words not May's .. so presumably you are indeed in favour of uncontrolled immigration and endorse May's sell out policy ? ..

    My feelings on the matter ? .. I am totally against uncontrolled immigration.
  • Immigration has to be controlled. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be encouraged and immigrants shouldn't be made to feel welcome. In fact by controlling it, you can ensure that happens.
  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.

    seriously .. open the borders for millions to settle in the UK, with free access to the NHS, subsidised accommodation, free education for their children, more competition for British people for all manner of jobs, state paid benefits for those that cannot or will not find work ? ..
    Have you have fully thought through this desire of yours, or is it just another top of the head piece of nonsense chatter ?

    My point is that it is Theresa May who announced an open door policy with the EU last Friday in Florence. You say 'this desire of yours', but turns out to be the desire of hers.
    Take it up with her, not my top of the head nonsense chatter but an announcement by the Prime Minister of the UK.
    you stated ' ... will thankfully continue. I hope that other planks of Brexit can be similarly abandoned' .. . your words not May's .. so presumably you are indeed in favour of uncontrolled immigration and endorse May's sell out policy ? ..
    Leaving aside my poor attempt at irony regarding the person who says 'brexit means brexit' becoming the person who now seems to be saying Brexit doesn't mean Brexit, I am indeed relaxed about uncontrolled immigration for a number of reasons...as Theresa May and the Conservatives now are.
    All we now need is to dismantle the lie about sovereignty and democracy, stay in the single market and continue to make a good contribution to the institution heading for ever closer union and we have a full house. Theresa May has taken the first step.
    Or.
    Somebody who represents the 'will of the British people' can perhaps tell a truthful story about the benefits of Brexit, and how it will be achieved.

    Like many in the EU I am waiting for more detail from the brexiters, after all they have had long enough to think up something beyond blue passports.
  • You can wait forever - you won't get it. Not sure what the point of getting it is when you know already it will be a load of proverbials anyway.
  • I don't think we will leave.
  • Fiiish said:

    For months we have heard Brexiters both on here and in the media whinging non-stop for "Remoaners" to shut up and stop being so negative and to be proper nationalists and get behind Brexit no matter what.

    Now it looks like we are going to a be paying a whopping divorce bill, immigration will be open doors, we will stay in the customs union and there will be a transition period and now you can't move for Brexiters whinging that they are being betrayed and other negative comments. Since May's speech LBC has been nothing else except call-ins from people like Darren and Sharon of Kettering whinging that May is letting us all down.

    Come on Little Englanders, line up and get behind Brexit waving your little plastic St George's Crosses (with the word ENGLAND printed across the red bar) like good little nationalists. It's what you've been demanding for months.

    Made in Vietnam or China no doubt!
  • Chizz said:

    I don't think we will leave.

    Brexit means hang around for a bit and hope something turns up.
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  • Chizz said:

    I don't think we will leave.

    Brexit means hang around for a bit and hope something turns up.
    That sounds a lot closer to a productive plan than anything we've heard since the vote.
  • Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes ..

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them, simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
  • seth plum said:

    No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.

    seriously .. open the borders for millions to settle in the UK, with free access to the NHS, subsidised accommodation, free education for their children, more competition for British people for all manner of jobs, state paid benefits for those that cannot or will not find work ? ..
    Have you have fully thought through this desire of yours, or is it just another top of the head piece of nonsense chatter ?

    According to Brexiters that has already the case, that is one of the staples of their "case".

    The trouble is that virtually all of that is either not true, or down to decisions made by the UK government. Yet the lie is still perpetuated that the EU are to blame.

  • Yes, this is similar to the rise in UKIP in UK, where successive Governments did not listen to the concerns of the ordinary voter. Europe is changing, like you say.

    As opposed to the extraordinary voter? Who he?
    There are a number of non "man in the street ' voters.

    Richard Branson
    Steve Coogan
    Daniel Radcliffe.

    To name a few at random.
  • Yes, this is similar to the rise in UKIP in UK, where successive Governments did not listen to the concerns of the ordinary voter. Europe is changing, like you say.

    As opposed to the extraordinary voter? Who he?
    There are a number of non "man in the street ' voters.

    Richard Branson
    Steve Coogan
    Daniel Radcliffe.

    To name a few at random.
    Or Tim Martin, James Dyson and Nigel Farage?

  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.

    seriously .. open the borders for millions to settle in the UK, with free access to the NHS, subsidised accommodation, free education for their children, more competition for British people for all manner of jobs, state paid benefits for those that cannot or will not find work ? ..
    Have you have fully thought through this desire of yours, or is it just another top of the head piece of nonsense chatter ?

    My point is that it is Theresa May who announced an open door policy with the EU last Friday in Florence. You say 'this desire of yours', but turns out to be the desire of hers.
    Take it up with her, not my top of the head nonsense chatter but an announcement by the Prime Minister of the UK.
    I think we will find out in due course that this "open door" policy actually means EU Citizens can apply for residency or citizenship - not come and go at will as we have at the moment.

    The devil will be in the detail as always.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
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  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Good. The sooner the better.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    Good. The sooner the better.
    Them pesky old facts annoying you?
  • The only fact I'm interested in is that we voted to leave and the sooner it happens the happier I'll be. FACT.
  • Lincs give up.... There just queuing up to have a go at you.. Just click the lol button. Stop keep justifying yourself, after all they dont after an election, and be bothered about the consequence of their vote on the rest of the country.

    If you mean general election, if things go wrong, you can have another vote in five years. This is permanent.
    No i meant you don't think of others when you vote in an election general or not... And font tell me you do when you dont live here.
  • If I'd of known it would be this much of a shambles I would of voted remain.
    Any chance of another referendum
  • edited September 2017

    Stig said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes ..

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them, simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    How arrogant to assume that I thought you were simpletons. I never said that at all. I said that you didn't understand the consequences. That it absolutely correct; nobody did, and nor could they have been expected to given the circumstances.
    and do you understand the consequences of remaining in the EU ? .. monetary union, Euro army (we already have troops stationed in the Baltic to 'protect' them against Russia, laughable is it not), closer 'political union' whatever that means, a continuance or expansion of 'freedom of movement' ..
    if you're happy with that, fair enough, .. I and millions like me are not happy with the prospect of being part of a political 'union' controlled from Berlin via Brussels and Strasbourg .. Rule Britannia NOT Deutschland Uber Alles
    The Euro Army is a Brextremist red herring, which I am sure you already know seeing that agreement has to be unanimous between all member states so one veto says no chance
  • seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
  • seth plum said:

    Stig said:

    More Brexit mayhem heading over the horizon. This is going to end up costing us a bloody fortune: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/14/hmrc-chief-warns-post-brexit-border-and-tax-checks-could-cost-up-to-800m

    Never in the history of human decision making did so many people understand so little of the consequences of a decision they should never been asked to make.

    seth plum said:

    Brexiters called it operation fear, when they were involved in operation ignorance.

    How arrogant/ignorant to assume that all those who voted 'out' are all simpletons, financial ignoramuses and/or racist xenophobes .. The best way to counteract my arrogance and ignorance might be to suggest what is good about brexit and how it will happen, surely there must be some non simpletons out there who could answer that one?

    It is not always a question of money .. many of those who voted out want to see an independent Britain free from the influence of an unelected bureaucracy, essentially controlled from Berlin and with the connivance of countries too poor or backward to make a go of it alone. It is not an unelected bureaucracy though is it? Neither is it 'essentially controlled from Berlin' or if it is, provide the evidence, and as for arrogance...well to assume countries are backward is very similar to us remainers assuming leavers are backward isn't it. Pot and kettle and all that. 'Money and finance' were secondary considerations in their decision making. Nobody knows what the primary or secondary or what considerations were in the minds of people, maybe it was about money given the £350million to the NHS bus.
    The problem we have now of course is that our so called Prime Minister is a spineless 'remainer' who'll bend over backwards (please no) to placate our European 'friends and neighbours, hoping at best that the result will be a very watered down 'exit' from the European body politic. Agreed, Theresa May was a declared remainer, and self declared 'strong and stable'.

    Article 50 should have been implemented during the week after the referendum result, we should by now be well on the way to achieving or should have completed the exit from the EU which, like it or not, was the wish of the MAJORITY of the Britons who took the trouble to vote in the referendum. Totally agree with you about this, the UK ought to have implemented brexit straight away and sod the ensuing chaos, by now the UK could have established a lot of detention centres for the EU citizens it is forcing to leave, and begun a programme for housing and generally looking after the ex-pats who are forced to return. A lot of time has been wasted. Suggesting, as I wrote above, that many who voted 'out' are ignorant or incapable of making a rational choice is an insult to them I am open to an explanation as to the rationale of the choice was, especially any rationale robust enough to withstand the obvious flaws when they are pointed out., simply because you have another view, albeit a misguided one
    My sister and her family moved from Sidcup to Lincolnshire. Born in London, three of my nieces live in Lincolnshire, one in Normanby, one in the Wolds, and one in Lincoln itself.
    Disgraceful wouldn't you say, that strangers should be allowed to move to that county? Why didn't the good people of Lincolnshire resist such an invasion and why not now get them out of the county?
    Absurd?
    Surely no more absurd than the position of brexiters now, and if your answer is about the borders of the country included Sidcup, then maybe you can help with answering the conundrum of the border in Ireland, after all you're no simpleton.

    The EU is completely democratic.
    The EU is not controlled by Germany.
    The UK is not, and indeed never has been an Independent country.*

    * it is a combination of other countries, and has been dependent on slavery and colonialism in order to exist in the first place, and it is not even independent in being able to feed itself from internal resources.

    as all too often you are rambling and bullshitting .. your sister's residence is of no concern of mine and is irrelevant to this topic ..

    slavery, colonialism ? .. in those respects we are just like the French and the Belgians and the Spanish and the Portuguese as well as the Germans with dreams of euro domination (you've heard of the final solution and the third reich ?) ... you seem to hate Britain .. are you British ? .. In any event if you don't like it here, fuck off and live elsewhere, I'm sure you'd be very welcome in the paradise that is mainland Europe .. in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria or even Germany perhaps
    I was born in Erith, not sure if that makes me British enough for you, then again my mother was Irish so maybe I am not pure enough to be counted as British.

    Easy to write off what I say as rambling and bullshitting because that way you can avoid responding in any detail.

    What you write above as the consequences of remaining is more appealing to me than this vague 'Rule Britannia' alternative.
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