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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.
  • I said at the time, that the majority of things Brexit voters claimed they wanted could be best achieved by staying in the EU, and that some of the things they claimed they wanted would be far harder to achieve by leaving the EU. May and her band of inept band of not-so-merry men are doing their best to prove me right everyday.
  • I think for a lot of people, it is more a gut decision rather than based on any common sense. Why if you want Brexit can't you want it delivered in the best way for the country. Did all 52% who voted want a hard punishing Brexit?
  • With a somewhat reformed Nazi-like party influencing the German government for the first time since WW2 - Europe is a changing it seems.
  • Yes, this is similar to the rise in UKIP in UK, where successive Governments did not listen to the concerns of the ordinary voter. Europe is changing, like you say.
  • The EU will eventually bring in border controls that would have been acceptable to the vast vast majority of Brexit voters. It will be a slow process, the EU is a big ships to change course with, but with the slow (stationary) speed to Brexit negotiations I wouldn't be at all surprised if we manage to time our leaving with the EU borders and immigration policies being pretty close to what Cameron tried to get a few years ago.

    At that stage we'll have tanked our currency and credit rating, and seriously damaged our economy and political influence in Europe (if not the world) leave something that is exactly what we said we wanted it to be.
  • One things for certain is that if Germany want to impose more regulated border controls, Merkel won't come back from negotiations celebrating her success in protecting the financial services industry.
  • Even if the EU bring in border controls it won't affect the UK, because in Florence last Friday Tory Prime Minister Theresa May declared that after Brexit the UK will have a completely open border policy.
  • I always said this would happen in other countries too. It is no good making the economic facts for immigration when people are not comfortable with it. There is a point where perfectly reasonable people say there are too many - amongst the unreasonable ones of course. Because the French elections were not a disaster, other EU nations have failed to grasp the significance. This is a reason why a bit of time won't hurt in us getting a deal, when it affects Germany the EU does something. I'm sure the EU will restrict free movement themselves within 2-3 years so none of the negotiating issues that are problems now should be.
  • In my opinion immigration and population is a pan international issue, like global warming if you like.
    I feel uncomfortable about the notion of one place being able to say it belongs to one group rather than everybody.
    Stupidly idealistic and unrealistic I know.
    Mind you my attitude would change if there was freedom and independence for Lee, at that point the rest of you can feck off!
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  • Seems the large vote for AfD was due to the huge influx of immigrants and asylum seekers last year. This flood seems to have reduced. I suspect by the time the next German election comes round things will have cooled down a bit. Unless of course there are a load of Islamic terrorism offences in Germany!
  • seth plum said:

    In my opinion immigration and population is a pan international issue, like global warming if you like.
    I feel uncomfortable about the notion of one place being able to say it belongs to one group rather than everybody.
    Stupidly idealistic and unrealistic I know.
    Mind you my attitude would change if there was freedom and independence for Lee, at that point the rest of you can feck off!

    Yes, but it cannot be ignored as an issue and many people uncomfortable (not all of course) are not racists! Whether they are right or wrong - ignoring it doesn't solve the problems down the line - Brexit is one such problem and the German people are just as capable of sticking two fingers up at the establishment as anybody else. As are the Italians, the French, the Spanish etc... etc... This is not going to play well for the EU if they don't realise that it is not just a British issue!
  • McBobbin said:

    Seems the large vote for AfD was due to the huge influx of immigrants and asylum seekers last year. This flood seems to have reduced. I suspect by the time the next German election comes round things will have cooled down a bit. Unless of course there are a load of Islamic terrorism offences in Germany!

    The sequence of events: bubble of migration to Germany, huge vote for anti-immigration party; can't be denied; some correlation might reasonably be inferred; but by far AfD's strongest support was polled in the old communist east of the country, areas which are not experiencing significant immigration, areas which today remain relatively deprived and ethnically not-diverse. Apparently the notion or fear of diversity/multiculturalism is much more effectively stoked up among people who have no experience of it.
    I'd like to think the wider german populace will remain resistant to the AfD because one doesn't have to dig around too far in the recent histories of its leading figures to find genuinely repugnant extremist views.
  • I suspect areas where they are not doing so well - like the North of England!
  • McBobbin said:

    Seems the large vote for AfD was due to the huge influx of immigrants and asylum seekers last year. This flood seems to have reduced. I suspect by the time the next German election comes round things will have cooled down a bit. Unless of course there are a load of Islamic terrorism offences in Germany!

    The sequence of events: bubble of migration to Germany, huge vote for anti-immigration party; can't be denied; some correlation might reasonably be inferred; but by far AfD's strongest support was polled in the old communist east of the country, areas which are not experiencing significant immigration, areas which today remain relatively deprived and ethnically not-diverse. Apparently the notion or fear of diversity/multiculturalism is much more effectively stoked up among people who have no experience of it.
    I'd like to think the wider german populace will remain resistant to the AfD because one doesn't have to dig around too far in the recent histories of its leading figures to find genuinely repugnant extremist views.
    100% you see similar in the UK with a map of ukip voter density being inversely proportional to population diversity
  • I suspect areas where they are not doing so well - like the North of England!

    Are Alternative fur Deutschland planning to enter candidates for election in Middlesbrough?
  • They would probably get votes if they did!
  • Yes, this is similar to the rise in UKIP in UK, where successive Governments did not listen to the concerns of the ordinary voter. Europe is changing, like you say.

    As opposed to the extraordinary voter? Who he?
  • edited September 2017
    seth plum said:

    No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.

    You had the chance to vote Liberal Democrat, 'leave', and many people might be regretting not siezing the chance of handing them at least some degree of power over government policy, however slight.
  • No. They wanted a referendum on the final terms. They weren't a leave party.
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  • seth plum said:

    No. They wanted a referendum on the final terms. They weren't a leave party.

    But this manifesto pledge was the best on offer, wouldnt you agree?

    ''The vote on the final Brexit deal would include an option to remain in the EU. Leader Tim Farron said today:

    “Imagine a brighter future. You don't have to accept Theresa May and Nigel Farage’s extreme version of Brexit that will wreck the future for you, your family, your schools and hospitals.

    In the biggest fight for the future of our country in a generation, Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour has let you down by voting with Theresa May on Brexit – not against her.

    “The Liberal Democrats want you to have your choice over your future. You should have your say on the Brexit deal in a referendum. And if you don't like the deal you should be able to reject it and choose to remain in Europe.''
  • seth plum said:

    No. They wanted a referendum on the final terms. They weren't a leave party.

    But this manifesto pledge was the best on offer, wouldnt you agree?

    ''The vote on the final Brexit deal would include an option to remain in the EU. Leader Tim Farron said today:

    “Imagine a brighter future. You don't have to accept Theresa May and Nigel Farage’s extreme version of Brexit that will wreck the future for you, your family, your schools and hospitals.

    In the biggest fight for the future of our country in a generation, Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour has let you down by voting with Theresa May on Brexit – not against her.

    “The Liberal Democrats want you to have your choice over your future. You should have your say on the Brexit deal in a referendum. And if you don't like the deal you should be able to reject it and choose to remain in Europe.''
    It was equal best on offer with the Greens. I accept that.
    I will vote for a person who says they want to remain, but who accepts that the vote went 52/48 and works with that.
    By works with that, I mean challenges the brexiters to implement it in all it's glory.
    I actually wish the cliff edge had been accepted a year ago, by now loads of 'foreigners' could have been forced out, and loads of ex-pats will have returned, and the hard border in Gibraltar and Ireland could be well established, then I could be entertained by brexiters pointing out how brilliant everything has become.
    A poster on Charlton Life previously said that brexiters had voted to punch themselves repeatedly in the face, leaving the remainers hoping it really hurts, and I am very close to that position.
  • I missed most of what happened on Friday and over the weekend. So after May's speech about a transitional period, has there been any acceptance of this from the EU
  • cabbles said:

    I missed most of what happened on Friday and over the weekend. So after May's speech about a transitional period, has there been any acceptance of this from the EU

    As far as I can tell the EU still want actual details. They meet on Thursday in some form or another so maybe more will emerge then.
  • seth plum said:

    A poster on Charlton Life previously said that brexiters had voted to punch themselves repeatedly in the face, leaving the remainers hoping it really hurts, and I am very close to that position.

    The problem with that position is the remainers are going to get caught by the backswing, which isn't a great position to be in either.
  • Well yeah.
    However the consequences of the vote will be felt by everybody, and I can't think of anything good to come out of it enough to alleviate the pain.
  • edited September 2017
    Simon Kuper in today's FT

    "The UK is now experimenting on itself for the benefit of humanity. Advanced societies rarely do anything so reckless, which is why the Brexit experiment is so valuable. In between self-poisonings, Brexit keeps producing discoveries that surprise both Leavers and Remainers."
  • edited September 2017
    seth plum said:

    No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.

    seriously .. open the borders for millions to settle in the UK, with free access to the NHS, subsidised accommodation, free education for their children, more competition for British people for all manner of jobs, state paid benefits for those that cannot or will not find work ? ..
    Have you have fully thought through this desire of yours, or is it just another top of the head piece of nonsense chatter ?

  • edited September 2017
    Leaving aside the argument around economic benefits - uncontrolled immigration is to blame for this problem. And the reality is, it isn't just an issue for this country as Germany recently found out.

    If you take a walk down your high street - which is quite a depressing thing to do in many parts of the country - unless you like to see decay! And apart from the graffiti, charity, coffee, betting and boarded up shops, you see Eastern European shops, then perhaps undertsandably you walk to the post office and only hear foreign languages spoke afround you.

    Then you are struggling financially, not having had a pay rise - effectively pay cuts - for years. And somebody tells you it is the fault of the foreigners undercutting you - which in some occasions it is a factor - not most occasions. If your life is about as sh*tty as it can get, what do you have to lose by voting Brexit?
  • seth plum said:

    No way would a single event either referendum or General Election be good enough unless it confirms brexit. The minimum would have to be a 'best of three' in order řo stay in or there would be no end of it.
    It would be helpful if there was a system in a generL election if candidates in addition to declaring party affiliation formally declared their brexit position. I would vote for a fecking Lib Dem or Tory remainer than a Labour leaver myself.
    Much as I would like to see brexit reversed I can't see how we can avoid it, whatever it is.
    At least we know from Theresa Mays Florence speech that uncontrolled immigration will thankfully continue. I hope the other planks of brexit can be similarly abandoned bit by bit.

    seriously .. open the borders for millions to settle in the UK, with free access to the NHS, subsidised accommodation, free education for their children, more competition for British people for all manner of jobs, state paid benefits for those that cannot or will not find work ? ..
    Have you have fully thought through this desire of yours, or is it just another top of the head piece of nonsense chatter ?

    My point is that it is Theresa May who announced an open door policy with the EU last Friday in Florence. You say 'this desire of yours', but turns out to be the desire of hers.
    Take it up with her, not my top of the head nonsense chatter but an announcement by the Prime Minister of the UK.
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