As a remainer, I don't like it when Brexit supporters are called stupid. I think it is unnecessarily provocative, insulting, counterproductive and, in the majority of cases, simply not true. That said, I know that I have been prone to go a little too far in my own arguments. The trouble for me is that everything I know or believe about Brexit is so unredeemingly bad, I really struggle to see how a reasonable person would support it. Since the referendum we've seen the supposed benefits refuted, whilst it seems that practically everyday new problems and difficulties surface which make Brexit seem all the more undesirable. I can't help but think that the only reason anyone would have for still supporting Brexit is the sheer painfulness of confronting the fact that it's not a good good choice.
With all that in mind, I'd like to throw down two challenges:
@Red_in_SE8, my challenge to you is to say exactly what it is that you don't like about Brexit without insulting those that take a different view.
@Brexiteers, my challenge to you is to ignore previous insults and focus on the benefits; rather than engaging in squabbles with Red, tell us why you think Brexit is still worthy of your support.
Vince Cable is pushing for another referendum as it will give us a definitive answer on Brexit once and for all (or words to that affect). Just how will another vote solve anything? The last one caused a huge divide between the different parties. I say 'caused' because I certainly wasn't aware of such hostility before the result. If the vote is overturned without being allowed to go through even in BINO there will be major disaffection from many of the 17.4m going forward,
Just how will another vote solve anything? Good question. To answer it, you first have to look at what needs fixing.
The UK Parliament is sovereign. Always has been, always will be. So what the UK Parliament decides is what happens in the country. But, right now, Parliament does not have a single, agreed position on Brexit, or any of its various flavours.
When the Prime Minister concludes the Government's negotiations with the EU, Parliament has an opportunity to approve of - or turn down - whatever has been agreed between the Government and the EU. So if we agree a deal (which I think is more likely than not agreeing a deal) it will be put to Parliament. And, as an agreed deal would be so much less "attractive" to the hard-line Brexiteers, it would get voted down. Likewise, if we fail to secure a deal (the "no deal" scenario), there are sufficient members in the House of Commons for that to be voted down.
In other words, our sovereign Parliament (remember, it's sovereign and always has been) are likely to vote down whatever deal (or no deal) the Prime Minister presents.
What happens in either of those cases? Do we remove the sovereignty of Parliament, change the way the UK is governed and enable the Government to overturn the will of Parliament? (And, if "yes", how do we square that with the idea of democracy being important?) Or does Parliament have the final say, so that we turn down the deal (or no deal), remain in the EU and find a Prime Minister prepared to work with a Parliament that demonstrates Parliamentary democracy is more important than the wishes of the Prime Minister?
So the problem is clear. We cannot move forward. Parliament needs our clear instruction.
No-one is suggesting that the vote is overturned. We have already spent more than two years and frittered away millions of pounds attempting to enact the result of the 2016 referendum. A further referendum would not seek to "overturn" the last one. Instead it would present Parliament with a clear mandate on precisely what action needs to be taken, when and by whom; it would force Parliament to act; and it would end the stalemate which will befall the country, with Parliament and the Government working against each other. That's how it will solve something - the biggest something we've been faced for decades.
If I had to bet on what will happen next it will be that the EU will agree a form of words that neutralises the controversial issues such as NI. May will put this to Parliament as the only deal possible. She will tell the Tory MPs who oppose it that if she loses the vote she will call a General Election which could end Brexit. The dissident Leave MPs will fall into line convinced by Gove's argument that a bad deal can be renegotiated once we have left in March. The House will pass it by a couple of votes. And that will be that.
That could well be a scenario but it does have to get through Parliament and that might not be quite as easy as you are suggesting. Not every Tory loon will fall into line and it’s hard to see the backstop being acceptable to the DUP. Labour will see any vote a chance to get an election and would be mad to vote with the government. On that basis I think May winning a parliamentary vote are at best 40/60
How many labour MPs will follow a Corbyn led whip?
Good question but most when the prize is a shot a government. Going against the whip on an issue of this magnitude and by that I mean forcing an election not Brexit would also almost certainly mean deselection for many. I think a vote on the terms as suggested by @Southbank1 will be close and fractures along party lines will be evident all round. I think it fascinating to think that the DUP will ultimately hold the balance and I don’t think there is a chance in hell of them accepting the backstop arrangement.
I still believe Corbyn is pro brexit and will, probably, support The vote.
And miss perhaps his one chance of forcing a general election and becoming Prime Minister ? I doubt that. I think all his left wing support base would feel that was a betrayal. Agree that he’s a brexiteer though. It’s just that events are bigger than his ability to influence them at this point. Labour Party conference will give us clues. It’s inconceivable that Brexit will not be the biggest agenda item as much as Corbyn would wish not.
You are exasperated that "Remainers" keep espousing their "entrenched views". They generally do so because they see very clearly the negative effect of Brexit on their own lives. I won't bang on about my personal situation, let's just say that I expect to receive an invoice today from a lawyer regarding my Czech (EU) citizenship application, as an example.
It is however very difficult to pin down "entrenched Leavers" on how they expect their own lives to be improved. I still have an image in my mind of @Southbank walking down Floyd Road singing "I got my sovereignty back" (except that I can't scan that into any known footie song. Probably that is symbolic).
Before the referendum I repeatedly asked leavers for three examples of how our EU membership negatively affects their own lives. I have vague feeling that you were one of the few (possibly the only) who managed an answer with concrete examples related to their own lives. I think it was related to where you live, if I recall. So let's move forward and update the question.
Could you please give me ideally three, and ideally very concrete, examples of how you now expect your own personal life to be improved as a result of Brexit?
I know you have asked this before PA and it is reasonable. It's not possible to say what any of us can expect going forward as none of us know what will be negotiated.
It is also wrong to personalise everything. I think that the UK will be forced into the Euro if we stay in, I don't think this will be good for the UK.
We will undoubtedly be part of an EU army going forward, that might have prevented the disastrous invasion of Iraq, it might not but I think a cooperative approach such as common ammunition makes sense but I have yet to hear any argument at all in favour of an EU army let alone a compelling one.
It is the stated goal of the EU to drive toward ever closer political ties. I don't want this and I guess many of the EU citizens will kick back in the coming years.
It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, although I look forward to us repopulating the Devon countryside with unicorns once we are out.
Well there we are. You tried to answer, and thanks for doing so, but ended up talking not about how things will get better when the UK leaves, but only about how some future terrible consequences of Remaining will be avoided. Looking at these "consequences", I seriously have to ask, who put these ideas in your head that such things would happen? Forced to join the euro? Seriously? Christ on a raft ,I wish someone would find a way to force the numpties who govern the Czech Republic to join the euro, but there is not a cat in hell's chance of it happening in the foreseeable future. An EU army? Really??? Personally I think it would be a very smart idea to strengthen Frontex as a way to deter migration (isn't that what Brexiteers wanted so badly?) but again the discussions about that are so fraught with petty national politics interfering, that it isn't happening any time soon either. But that isn't an "EU army" anyway, simply a way of pooling resources to help out countries on the front line. The kind of thing that probably would create "closer political ties" aka club members helping each other out.
And you end by saying It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, . So there you have your answer to your original question. You admit you might not be better off and cannot even define why the country will be better off in any concrete terms. That's why the thread powers on. As Remainers we just cannot see why we should stand by and let Brexiteers drive the whole country off a cliff without speaking up. Of course we are going to speak up, just as we all speak out against the madness of Roland Duchatelet, or the absurdity of West Ham living off the taxpayer in my case. You are of course entitled to both hold and espouse your views. You have done so, and nobody called you names. But, at least here, your comments have left a fellow Lifer burying his head in his hands in despair at the sheer monstrous futility of it all.
I understand where you are coming from Prague. When somebody says that they think the EU will make us join the Euro if we stay you wonder why it is worth bothering. How can you debate something like that? It is fear born out of mistrust and a misunderstanding. If there is any point, I can reassure you that the only way we will join the Euro is if we want to and that isn't likely any time soon and probably ever.
I going to Italy for a few days holiday tonight, and am just off out to get my Euros!!!!
We all see/here what supports our own entrenched views far easier than those views we oppose[1].
I have said before that I have never liked the idea of being in the EU, the EC or the EEC. Despite 2016 being the first meaningful vote I have ever been allowed on the matter, I was still unsure just how I was going to cast my vote a day or two before the referendum as I was trying to weigh up the pros and cons. We were never given any facts[2], just opinions, bias and lies from both sides[3]. We have far more information about the process than we did before the referendum but we still don't have solid facts about how we are going to leave so we can't know what will happen as a result.
What I get bombarded with is a huge amount of gloom and doom from social media and the mainstream media too. These are still just opinions and bias. If you start from a basic premise that Brexit is going to be a disaster then it isn't surprising that your findings will bare this out. There are a distinct lack of articles showing any balance at all, one side makes biased or exaggerated claims and this is then countered by the opposite biased or exaggerated claims to try and change people's minds. It isn't working, particularly when the writer/speaker insults the other side. Everybody just gets the hump and refuses to listen to the other side's legitimate points. Bizarrely, the only personality I can recall hearing speak in a balanced way on Brexit is Martin Lewis.
The LSE claimed that mass immigration hadn't lowered indigenous wages, I can only think that their research centred on sectors that were less prone to the adverse affects of uncontrolled immigration. We heard on this forum from people who had direct experience in the building industry of their income being driven down by new competition. Why would experts be believed when people's own experiences proved this report to be wrong? [4]It also claimed that mass immigration had no adverse affect on social housing. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse
Immigration is undoubtedly a good thing for the UK overall and indeed the immigrants but it has to be controlled [5]and not used to avoid necessary investment in modernising UK businesses by lazy employers. This is helping to drive down our productivity and wages in some sectors.
Vince Cable is pushing for another referendum as it will give us a definitive answer on Brexit once and for all (or words to that affect). Just how will another vote solve anything? The last one caused a huge divide between the different parties. I say 'caused' because I certainly wasn't aware of such hostility before the result [7]. If the vote is overturned without being allowed to go through even in BINO there will be major disaffection from many of the 17.4m going forward.
I actually don't have a problem with BMW moving their planned maintenance of their factory to coincide with the the beginning of Brexit, this makes business sense. Of course the timing is based on politics rather than business[8] but it does highlight that much of UK business is getting more and more desperate to know what is going to happen going forward so that they can make plans. The lack of any sense of what the outcome of the negotiations is the real issue for businesses and EU immigrants alike, once a firm agreement is made, everyone can move forward.
I am politically homeless as I see no party that speaks for me and no politician likely to come through that inspires me. I think that I would like a new central party but one based on giving us Brexit, not thwarting it. PR would help deal with many issues, maybe creating others but I would want to see it introduced then the nutters taking over the Labour Party can do so and all the Blairites can so their own thing etc.
First of all, thank you for putting such a great effort in to outlining your thinking; that is much appreciated. I've put a number of responses to specific points below, but they don't really get to the nub of my repost. The overwhelming feeling I get is that your position is extremely light on any benefits of Brexit. You are very good at highlighting inconsistencies in remainers' arguments, but what are the actual benefits of Brexit now? I can't see one point where you say, 'I'm backing Brexit because it will do this for us'. The closest we ever get is that it won't be as bad as the remainers forecast. I don't want our country to undertake such a colossal change on that basis. If we're going to do this thing, I at least wan't people to be saying, yes, these are the benefits... I've seen nothing in what you've written here though that there are any real benefits. It comes across more as defending a vote you made 18 months ago than as something you really think will benefit us now. I find quite intriguing really, as you say that you were undecided until the last minute. If you were undecided so close to the vote, there must have been reasons in your mind for thinking that remain was a good (or, at least, viable) option. With all we have learned since then about how many of the previously stated benefits will not materialise and how problematic leaving will be in many cases, are you not tempted at all to change your mind?
[1] It's a fair cop. I know I do that. [2] This is not true. We were given lots of facts. The government provided lots of information. Apart from anything else, all households were given a leaflet. For anyone who wanted to check the information it contained, they published an online version. This contained 47 detailed footnotes and 84 links to original works from a wide variety of organisations. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk The real trouble wasn't the absence of facts, but the denigration of facts and the labelling of any factual content as Project Fear. Remember Michael Gove's soundbite that people have "had enough of experts". He wasn't just commenting on the phenomenon that some world weary people couldn't be bothered with academics. He was positively encouraging them to ignore experts and instead follow those who had nothing but unfounded rhetoric. https://www.london.edu/faculty-and-research/lbsr/who-needs-experts [3] I'm not going to defend misinformation from the remain camp. But to lump it together the the Brexit lies, gives a wholly false impression of the respective campaigns. Granted, remain may have let a few slip through the net. But the bulk of the leave campaign was based on lies. [4] This is a very good question, and is surely something Gove was tapping into with his quote above. There are always differences within society. I suspect that most people in positions that they see as running counter to published data are more likely to question the quality of the data rather than question why their own position may be anomalous. It doesn't make the facts any less true though. [5] Your argument here seems to be based on the premise that leaving the EU would solve the migration conundrum. I think that may have been a legitimate line of thought eighteen months ago, but with the benefit of hindsight we know that isn't the case. See, for example, numerous posts from @seth plum on the Irish Border problem for more detail. [6] So say the likes of IDS, Rees-Mogg and Leadsom. Whilst I think it's probably fair to say that the majority of civil servants oppose Brexit (and one might do well to ask the question why that is), I'm not certain that there's any evidence at all of anything duplicitous taking place. Having personally worked with Treasury officials in the past I find it hard to believe that they would be anything other than professional and honourable. [7] Neither can I remember such hostility before. From my own perspective, I have to admit that I too feel hostile. I guess that's a natural reaction to having something personally beneficial taken away against your wishes. I don't like the feeling, but it's there none the less. I understand too why Brexiteers would feel similarly aggrieved if their Brexit dream was taken away. That for me is one of the saddest things, that we had such an ill constructed referendum with absolutely no checks and balances built into the mechanism. We're talking about a non-reversible, constitutional issue and we're expected to make that decision on the basis of a simple, and as it turns out, slender majority from a one-off referendum. The whole thing is outrageous. No wonder so many people are outraged. [8] I can understand why, from your perspective, it might be seen like that. I'm not sure that you can tease our the economic from the political, though. From BMW's perspective the best thing would be for the UK to stay in the EU, that would enable them to operate their business as usual. If we leave, they could stay here, but would have massive uncertainty and the distinct possibility of supply chain problems, increased tariffs and delays. Alternatively they could relocate their operations which would negate the problems but would incur the costs of upheaval. Being clear about what they intend to do should Brexit go ahead is therefore not only the most practical way of lobbying for what they would like to happen, but it the most honourable thing to do.
You are exasperated that "Remainers" keep espousing their "entrenched views". They generally do so because they see very clearly the negative effect of Brexit on their own lives. I won't bang on about my personal situation, let's just say that I expect to receive an invoice today from a lawyer regarding my Czech (EU) citizenship application, as an example.
It is however very difficult to pin down "entrenched Leavers" on how they expect their own lives to be improved. I still have an image in my mind of @Southbank walking down Floyd Road singing "I got my sovereignty back" (except that I can't scan that into any known footie song. Probably that is symbolic).
Before the referendum I repeatedly asked leavers for three examples of how our EU membership negatively affects their own lives. I have vague feeling that you were one of the few (possibly the only) who managed an answer with concrete examples related to their own lives. I think it was related to where you live, if I recall. So let's move forward and update the question.
Could you please give me ideally three, and ideally very concrete, examples of how you now expect your own personal life to be improved as a result of Brexit?
I know you have asked this before PA and it is reasonable. It's not possible to say what any of us can expect going forward as none of us know what will be negotiated.
It is also wrong to personalise everything. I think that the UK will be forced into the Euro if we stay in, I don't think this will be good for the UK.
We will undoubtedly be part of an EU army going forward, that might have prevented the disastrous invasion of Iraq, it might not but I think a cooperative approach such as common ammunition makes sense but I have yet to hear any argument at all in favour of an EU army let alone a compelling one.
It is the stated goal of the EU to drive toward ever closer political ties. I don't want this and I guess many of the EU citizens will kick back in the coming years.
It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, although I look forward to us repopulating the Devon countryside with unicorns once we are out.
Well there we are. You tried to answer, and thanks for doing so, but ended up talking not about how things will get better when the UK leaves, but only about how some future terrible consequences of Remaining will be avoided. Looking at these "consequences", I seriously have to ask, who put these ideas in your head that such things would happen? Forced to join the euro? Seriously? Christ on a raft ,I wish someone would find a way to force the numpties who govern the Czech Republic to join the euro, but there is not a cat in hell's chance of it happening in the foreseeable future. An EU army? Really??? Personally I think it would be a very smart idea to strengthen Frontex as a way to deter migration (isn't that what Brexiteers wanted so badly?) but again the discussions about that are so fraught with petty national politics interfering, that it isn't happening any time soon either. But that isn't an "EU army" anyway, simply a way of pooling resources to help out countries on the front line. The kind of thing that probably would create "closer political ties" aka club members helping each other out.
And you end by saying It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, . So there you have your answer to your original question. You admit you might not be better off and cannot even define why the country will be better off in any concrete terms. That's why the thread powers on. As Remainers we just cannot see why we should stand by and let Brexiteers drive the whole country off a cliff without speaking up. Of course we are going to speak up, just as we all speak out against the madness of Roland Duchatelet, or the absurdity of West Ham living off the taxpayer in my case. You are of course entitled to both hold and espouse your views. You have done so, and nobody called you names. But, at least here, your comments have left a fellow Lifer burying his head in his hands in despair at the sheer monstrous futility of it all.
Were Brexit to actually happen, of which I am still not convinced, then we would all be better off because we will have taken back control of our political process. The importance of this seems to be the one thing that Remainers collectively either do not get or do not agree with. My support for this is based on one thing only, that a democracy can only operate within national borders. All historical attempts to overcome national sovereignty through imperialism or colonialism have been despotic and anti-democratic to some degree or other. The EU represents a relatively benign example of this, but nevertheless operates through taking power from national governments and absorbing it into a bureaucrat and managerialist elite which is increasingly impervious to democratic control.
This feeling of being robbed of control was the most important aspect of why so many people voted for Brexit. It sometimes took the form of anti-immigration because open borders to EU citizens was one aspect of EU membership. It is striking how anti-immigrant feeling in this country has subsided after the Brexit vote according to all recent polls. This is because people now believe we are on our way to being able to control immigration as a result of Brexit, which shows that the problem in the first place was not immigration itself, but our inability to control it. For this reason a more harmonious society would be another major benefit of Brexit.
Another major benefit would be that our own politicians will no longer be able to blame the EU for their own inadequacies. They will be potentially more accountable and the Daily Mail and others will no longer be able to point the finger at Brussels when things go wrong in this country.
Finally, and probably most importantly, the millions of ordinary people who voted for Brexit will feel that the democractic process in this country can work and that the rich and powerful who have a vested interest in the status quo do not always get their own way.
You are exasperated that "Remainers" keep espousing their "entrenched views". They generally do so because they see very clearly the negative effect of Brexit on their own lives. I won't bang on about my personal situation, let's just say that I expect to receive an invoice today from a lawyer regarding my Czech (EU) citizenship application, as an example.
It is however very difficult to pin down "entrenched Leavers" on how they expect their own lives to be improved. I still have an image in my mind of @Southbank walking down Floyd Road singing "I got my sovereignty back" (except that I can't scan that into any known footie song. Probably that is symbolic).
Before the referendum I repeatedly asked leavers for three examples of how our EU membership negatively affects their own lives. I have vague feeling that you were one of the few (possibly the only) who managed an answer with concrete examples related to their own lives. I think it was related to where you live, if I recall. So let's move forward and update the question.
Could you please give me ideally three, and ideally very concrete, examples of how you now expect your own personal life to be improved as a result of Brexit?
I know you have asked this before PA and it is reasonable. It's not possible to say what any of us can expect going forward as none of us know what will be negotiated.
It is also wrong to personalise everything. I think that the UK will be forced into the Euro if we stay in, I don't think this will be good for the UK.
We will undoubtedly be part of an EU army going forward, that might have prevented the disastrous invasion of Iraq, it might not but I think a cooperative approach such as common ammunition makes sense but I have yet to hear any argument at all in favour of an EU army let alone a compelling one.
It is the stated goal of the EU to drive toward ever closer political ties. I don't want this and I guess many of the EU citizens will kick back in the coming years.
It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, although I look forward to us repopulating the Devon countryside with unicorns once we are out.
Well there we are. You tried to answer, and thanks for doing so, but ended up talking not about how things will get better when the UK leaves, but only about how some future terrible consequences of Remaining will be avoided. Looking at these "consequences", I seriously have to ask, who put these ideas in your head that such things would happen? Forced to join the euro? Seriously? Christ on a raft ,I wish someone would find a way to force the numpties who govern the Czech Republic to join the euro, but there is not a cat in hell's chance of it happening in the foreseeable future. An EU army? Really??? Personally I think it would be a very smart idea to strengthen Frontex as a way to deter migration (isn't that what Brexiteers wanted so badly?) but again the discussions about that are so fraught with petty national politics interfering, that it isn't happening any time soon either. But that isn't an "EU army" anyway, simply a way of pooling resources to help out countries on the front line. The kind of thing that probably would create "closer political ties" aka club members helping each other out.
And you end by saying It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, . So there you have your answer to your original question. You admit you might not be better off and cannot even define why the country will be better off in any concrete terms. That's why the thread powers on. As Remainers we just cannot see why we should stand by and let Brexiteers drive the whole country off a cliff without speaking up. Of course we are going to speak up, just as we all speak out against the madness of Roland Duchatelet, or the absurdity of West Ham living off the taxpayer in my case. You are of course entitled to both hold and espouse your views. You have done so, and nobody called you names. But, at least here, your comments have left a fellow Lifer burying his head in his hands in despair at the sheer monstrous futility of it all.
Were Brexit to actually happen, of which I am still not convinced, then we would all be better off because we will have taken back control of our political process. The importance of this seems to be the one thing that Remainers collectively either do not get or do not agree with. My support for this is based on one thing only, that a democracy can only operate within national borders. All historical attempts to overcome national sovereignty through imperialism or colonialism have been despotic and anti-democratic to some degree or other. The EU represents a relatively benign example of this, but nevertheless operates through taking power from national governments and absorbing it into a bureaucrat and managerialist elite which is increasingly impervious to democratic control.
This feeling of being robbed of control was the most important aspect of why so many people voted for Brexit. It sometimes took the form of anti-immigration because open borders to EU citizens was one aspect of EU membership. It is striking how anti-immigrant feeling in this country has subsided after the Brexit vote according to all recent polls. This is because people now believe we are on our way to being able to control immigration as a result of Brexit, which shows that the problem in the first place was not immigration itself, but our inability to control it. For this reason a more harmonious society would be another major benefit of Brexit.
Another major benefit would be that our own politicians will no longer be able to blame the EU for their own inadequacies. They will be potentially more accountable and the Daily Mail and others will no longer be able to point the finger at Brussels when things go wrong in this country.
Finally, and probably most importantly, the millions of ordinary people who voted for Brexit will feel that the democractic process in this country can work and that the rich and powerful who have a vested interest in the status quo do not always get their own way.
So getting rid of our shitty domestic politicians and highlighting what we already know about The Daily Mail makes the disaster of Brexit worthwhile. The other arguments re border control and immigration are already defeated. Not sure I’m buying into an harmonious post Brexit (or not) society either. Like the idea of the unicorns though.
Sorry mate, but I can only LOL your comment because it is the same old, same old. You have never explained how membership of the EU prevented you or our elected representatives from dealing with the pressing political issues of the day for most people which , I dare to suggest, would be as follows:
1. How to fund and make more efficient the NHS -for all
2. How to fund and make more efficient and humane, elderly care for the vast majority
3. How to reform the uniquely dysfunctional UK property market.
4. How to reform our transport infrastructure, particularly our railway system which drives everybody nuts all day, every day (see SE Trains thread)
5. How to reform the preposterous cost structures which have grown up around our universities, and the lack of alternatives which might equip more of our young people to build careers.
Thye are the issues for most "ordinary people" are they not? How has EU membership ever stopped us dealing with all of them in our own national interest? Has any serious politician even cited "the EU" as the main barrier to doing so? Other than a lame attempt regarding the railways -from that twat Corbyn- nobody has done so, because there is nothing at all stopping us. Quite rightly since no other EU country of our wealth has any of these problems to the same extent.
Again, sorry to personalise this mate, but you just keep trotting out the same old cliches, which I have almost learnt by heart by now:
taken back control of our political process./overcome national sovereignty impervious to democratic control / will feel that the democractic process in this country can work/ the rich and powerful who have a vested interest in the status quo do not always get their own way./
Look at that list above. What stops us fixing them, right now?
I think your response just shows once again that you still do not understand why the majority of people in the UK voted for Brexit. It turns out that 'ordinary people' care more about politics than you and others think. And thank God that most people can see beyond bread and butter issues or our democratic way of life would really be screwed.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
I think your response just shows once again that you still do not understand why the majority of people in the UK voted for Brexit. It turns out that 'ordinary people' care more about politics than you and others think. And thank God that most people can see beyond bread and butter issues or our democratic way of life would really be screwed.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
You are exasperated that "Remainers" keep espousing their "entrenched views". They generally do so because they see very clearly the negative effect of Brexit on their own lives. I won't bang on about my personal situation, let's just say that I expect to receive an invoice today from a lawyer regarding my Czech (EU) citizenship application, as an example.
It is however very difficult to pin down "entrenched Leavers" on how they expect their own lives to be improved. I still have an image in my mind of @Southbank walking down Floyd Road singing "I got my sovereignty back" (except that I can't scan that into any known footie song. Probably that is symbolic).
Before the referendum I repeatedly asked leavers for three examples of how our EU membership negatively affects their own lives. I have vague feeling that you were one of the few (possibly the only) who managed an answer with concrete examples related to their own lives. I think it was related to where you live, if I recall. So let's move forward and update the question.
Could you please give me ideally three, and ideally very concrete, examples of how you now expect your own personal life to be improved as a result of Brexit?
I know you have asked this before PA and it is reasonable. It's not possible to say what any of us can expect going forward as none of us know what will be negotiated.
It is also wrong to personalise everything. I think that the UK will be forced into the Euro if we stay in, I don't think this will be good for the UK.
We will undoubtedly be part of an EU army going forward, that might have prevented the disastrous invasion of Iraq, it might not but I think a cooperative approach such as common ammunition makes sense but I have yet to hear any argument at all in favour of an EU army let alone a compelling one.
It is the stated goal of the EU to drive toward ever closer political ties. I don't want this and I guess many of the EU citizens will kick back in the coming years.
It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, although I look forward to us repopulating the Devon countryside with unicorns once we are out.
Well there we are. You tried to answer, and thanks for doing so, but ended up talking not about how things will get better when the UK leaves, but only about how some future terrible consequences of Remaining will be avoided. Looking at these "consequences", I seriously have to ask, who put these ideas in your head that such things would happen? Forced to join the euro? Seriously? Christ on a raft ,I wish someone would find a way to force the numpties who govern the Czech Republic to join the euro, but there is not a cat in hell's chance of it happening in the foreseeable future. An EU army? Really??? Personally I think it would be a very smart idea to strengthen Frontex as a way to deter migration (isn't that what Brexiteers wanted so badly?) but again the discussions about that are so fraught with petty national politics interfering, that it isn't happening any time soon either. But that isn't an "EU army" anyway, simply a way of pooling resources to help out countries on the front line. The kind of thing that probably would create "closer political ties" aka club members helping each other out.
And you end by saying It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, . So there you have your answer to your original question. You admit you might not be better off and cannot even define why the country will be better off in any concrete terms. That's why the thread powers on. As Remainers we just cannot see why we should stand by and let Brexiteers drive the whole country off a cliff without speaking up. Of course we are going to speak up, just as we all speak out against the madness of Roland Duchatelet, or the absurdity of West Ham living off the taxpayer in my case. You are of course entitled to both hold and espouse your views. You have done so, and nobody called you names. But, at least here, your comments have left a fellow Lifer burying his head in his hands in despair at the sheer monstrous futility of it all.
Were Brexit to actually happen, of which I am still not convinced, then we would all be better off because we will have taken back control of our political process. The importance of this seems to be the one thing that Remainers collectively either do not get or do not agree with. My support for this is based on one thing only, that a democracy can only operate within national borders. All historical attempts to overcome national sovereignty through imperialism or colonialism have been despotic and anti-democratic to some degree or other. The EU represents a relatively benign example of this, but nevertheless operates through taking power from national governments and absorbing it into a bureaucrat and managerialist elite which is increasingly impervious to democratic control.
This feeling of being robbed of control was the most important aspect of why so many people voted for Brexit. It sometimes took the form of anti-immigration because open borders to EU citizens was one aspect of EU membership. It is striking how anti-immigrant feeling in this country has subsided after the Brexit vote according to all recent polls. This is because people now believe we are on our way to being able to control immigration as a result of Brexit, which shows that the problem in the first place was not immigration itself, but our inability to control it. For this reason a more harmonious society would be another major benefit of Brexit.
Another major benefit would be that our own politicians will no longer be able to blame the EU for their own inadequacies. They will be potentially more accountable and the Daily Mail and others will no longer be able to point the finger at Brussels when things go wrong in this country.
Finally, and probably most importantly, the millions of ordinary people who voted for Brexit will feel that the democractic process in this country can work and that the rich and powerful who have a vested interest in the status quo do not always get their own way.
The other arguments re border control and immigration are already defeated.
Here is the exact problem though, they have been defeated, in your opinion, the fact that others have an opinion that differs from yours seems somewhat irrelevant, to you. TellyTubby highlighted perfectly well on the last page why the 'evidence' is not relevant to everyone.
This entire debate (not just on CL) seems to consist of both sides burying their heads in the sand and ignoring what the other side are saying. It's kinda depressing to see.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether the 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether they 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
It's exactly what it reflects, if you can't be bothered to vote, you're not entitled to a view, imo
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether they 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
It's exactly what it reflects, if you can't be bothered to vote, you're not entitled to a view, imo
Sorry Stu, that ain't how life works. People's views don't get erased just because, in your opinion, they haven't earned them.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether the 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
I don't think you can counter a fallacy with a supposition. Besides, everybody knew the rules before the referendum. If somebody couldn't bother their arse to vote, what do they have to complain about now? They decided to express no opinion on the question when given the opportunity to do so.
I live in a comfortably safe Labour constituency, but I still vote every time even though the result is a foregone conclusion. Never take your vote for granted, one day we may have to fight for it again.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether the 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
I don't think you can counter a fallacy with a supposition. Besides, everybody knew the rules before the referendum. If somebody couldn't bother their arse to vote, what do they have to complain about now? They decided to express no opinion on the question when given the opportunity to do so.
I live in comfortably safe Labour constituency, but I still vote every time even thought the result is a foregone conclusion. Never take your vote for granted, one day we may have to fight for it again.
Too true, but we Leavers are already having to fight for it.
@TellyTubby thank you for your considered views a page or two back. You won't be surprised that I fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything you say except that we all tend towards confirmation bias and we should be aware of this. We most certainly do.
Ironically you underline this point by denigrating the official/academic reports into the affects of immigration yet seem quite prepared to accept as empirical evidence the anecdotal experience of a few posters on here.
Anyway, others have also addressed your points better than I could so I won't add to that other that to say that I wanted to thank you for your contribution.
No it’s not just my opinion is it. It’s a fact that this country will fall on its arse if we curtail immigration to any great extent. I’m not just talking about doctors, nurses and IT experts. We will fall short in people serving us coffee, looking after the elderly and picking our crops.
Please tell me where we make up the numbers and yet stick to the mantra of gaining control of our borders ? The circle can’t be squared. There is perhaps an argument that numbers coming into the country need to be looked at but at least half of those that come to these shores are from outside the EU and we can control that ourselves. Nothing to do with the EU.
The classic response to my point is that we allow in those we need. Don’t you see that we need those here. We have we’re told almost full employment. We can’t afford to lose those EU workers who carry out work we wouldn’t otherwise be able to do.
No matter which way it’s painted. The argument for immigration is all about leave rhetoric not cold hard reality.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether they 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
It's exactly what it reflects, if you can't be bothered to vote, you're not entitled to a view, imo
Sorry Stu, that ain't how life works. People's views don't get erased just because, in your opinion, they haven't earned them.
It's nothing to do with earning an opinion, the people where asked to vote on something, if someone can't be bothered to actually do so, why should their opinion matter?
You also have no idea how any of those people would have voted, I know two people who would have voted brexit, but didn't, as they didn't think their side stood a chance, so it goes both ways.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
I heard a woman talking on BBC Radio 4 this morning. She tries to recruit 10,000 migrant workers every year to work on farms. She was asked if she would welcome UK workers and she said she would be delighted but this year when they launched an extensive recruitment scheme for such workers she succeeded in attracting 2 - one of whom failed to turn up. She added that migrant worker recruitment was down 25-32% over the last couple of years, specifically because the low pound meant that it was far less economic for them to come over. There was also an interview with a woman in Scotland who ran a strawberry farm and she reported that field after field had been left to rot because they couldn't get enough migrant workers in to pick them. These damned migrants, eh, come stealing our jobs yadda yadda....
I think your response just shows once again that you still do not understand why the majority of people in the UK voted for Brexit. It turns out that 'ordinary people' care more about politics than you and others think. And thank God that most people can see beyond bread and butter issues or our democratic way of life would really be screwed.
And your response shows the remarkable conceit that you believe you understand the Brexit vote. You think they all voted for the same reason, which is your fundamental error. In your case you think that reason was "sovereignty" and "taking back control". Never mind that when many Brexiters are asked, in front of a camera or microphone, what 'taking back control" actually means, they gulp like goldfish on crack. That was exactly how my Mum reacted when she came out with something like 'taking back control' as her reason for voting Brexit, and breaking my heart in the process. And of course when I ask you what it means, in practical terms you revert to high minded sounding cliches, without any reference to your own day to day life.
The truth has now gradually emerged that people voted Brexit for a mish-mash of reasons (as can be seen on CL) and that it wasn't even down to demographics/income/education. A much better correlation was with other outlooks on life, such as views on capital punishment, and other aspects of the order vs tolerance spectrum. That explains the completely divergent views of my brother and my sister who would fall into exactly the same demographic in terms of age, education level (grammar school but not beyond), and earnings (barely scraping average, especially given that they live in London).
You have stated your reasons, at least in general cliche filled terms why you voted Leave. You kid yourself mightily if you think you represent the voice of Brexit. I am afraid there are many different voices of the Brexit vote, some of them reasoned and focused on free trade, like e.g. Dippenhall, and others ranging from the ugly to the downright sinister.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
Well, democracy will crank into action over there again this autumn. Lets see what happens...there is apparently a Democrat making big waves in Redneck Wonderland Texas...
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
He will be in 2 or 6 years time, unless impeached beforehand.
Please point me in the direction of how we undo Brexit at the polls afterwards, or during through legal challenge? Or is Brexit unique in democratic history as being a one time only deal, impossible to change through any democratic or legal process?
Seems to me that Brexit is like a one time vote to appoint a (hopefully benevolent) dictator for life. How long into their reign does it stops becoming a democracy?
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
Nobody would say Trump should be removed from office because he is a bad President - due process however should be followed if he has committed criminal acts or 'high crimes and misdemeanors'.
As far as I am concerned the whole referendum and subsequent shit fest is criminal.
Comments
And you end by saying It's what I think will be best for the long term future of the UK not necessarily for me personally, . So there you have your answer to your original question. You admit you might not be better off and cannot even define why the country will be better off in any concrete terms. That's why the thread powers on. As Remainers we just cannot see why we should stand by and let Brexiteers drive the whole country off a cliff without speaking up. Of course we are going to speak up, just as we all speak out against the madness of Roland Duchatelet, or the absurdity of West Ham living off the taxpayer in my case. You are of course entitled to both hold and espouse your views. You have done so, and nobody called you names. But, at least here, your comments have left a fellow Lifer burying his head in his hands in despair at the sheer monstrous futility of it all.
I going to Italy for a few days holiday tonight, and am just off out to get my Euros!!!!
[1] It's a fair cop. I know I do that.
[2] This is not true. We were given lots of facts. The government provided lots of information. Apart from anything else, all households were given a leaflet. For anyone who wanted to check the information it contained, they published an online version. This contained 47 detailed footnotes and 84 links to original works from a wide variety of organisations. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk The real trouble wasn't the absence of facts, but the denigration of facts and the labelling of any factual content as Project Fear. Remember Michael Gove's soundbite that people have "had enough of experts". He wasn't just commenting on the phenomenon that some world weary people couldn't be bothered with academics. He was positively encouraging them to ignore experts and instead follow those who had nothing but unfounded rhetoric. https://www.london.edu/faculty-and-research/lbsr/who-needs-experts
[3] I'm not going to defend misinformation from the remain camp. But to lump it together the the Brexit lies, gives a wholly false impression of the respective campaigns. Granted, remain may have let a few slip through the net. But the bulk of the leave campaign was based on lies.
[4] This is a very good question, and is surely something Gove was tapping into with his quote above. There are always differences within society. I suspect that most people in positions that they see as running counter to published data are more likely to question the quality of the data rather than question why their own position may be anomalous. It doesn't make the facts any less true though.
[5] Your argument here seems to be based on the premise that leaving the EU would solve the migration conundrum. I think that may have been a legitimate line of thought eighteen months ago, but with the benefit of hindsight we know that isn't the case. See, for example, numerous posts from @seth plum on the Irish Border problem for more detail.
[6] So say the likes of IDS, Rees-Mogg and Leadsom. Whilst I think it's probably fair to say that the majority of civil servants oppose Brexit (and one might do well to ask the question why that is), I'm not certain that there's any evidence at all of anything duplicitous taking place. Having personally worked with Treasury officials in the past I find it hard to believe that they would be anything other than professional and honourable.
[7] Neither can I remember such hostility before. From my own perspective, I have to admit that I too feel hostile. I guess that's a natural reaction to having something personally beneficial taken away against your wishes. I don't like the feeling, but it's there none the less. I understand too why Brexiteers would feel similarly aggrieved if their Brexit dream was taken away. That for me is one of the saddest things, that we had such an ill constructed referendum with absolutely no checks and balances built into the mechanism. We're talking about a non-reversible, constitutional issue and we're expected to make that decision on the basis of a simple, and as it turns out, slender majority from a one-off referendum. The whole thing is outrageous. No wonder so many people are outraged.
[8] I can understand why, from your perspective, it might be seen like that. I'm not sure that you can tease our the economic from the political, though. From BMW's perspective the best thing would be for the UK to stay in the EU, that would enable them to operate their business as usual. If we leave, they could stay here, but would have massive uncertainty and the distinct possibility of supply chain problems, increased tariffs and delays. Alternatively they could relocate their operations which would negate the problems but would incur the costs of upheaval. Being clear about what they intend to do should Brexit go ahead is therefore not only the most practical way of lobbying for what they would like to happen, but it the most honourable thing to do.
This feeling of being robbed of control was the most important aspect of why so many people voted for Brexit. It sometimes took the form of anti-immigration because open borders to EU citizens was one aspect of EU membership. It is striking how anti-immigrant feeling in this country has subsided after the Brexit vote according to all recent polls. This is because people now believe we are on our way to being able to control immigration as a result of Brexit, which shows that the problem in the first place was not immigration itself, but our inability to control it. For this reason a more harmonious society would be another major benefit of Brexit.
Another major benefit would be that our own politicians will no longer be able to blame the EU for their own inadequacies. They will be potentially more accountable and the Daily Mail and others will no longer be able to point the finger at Brussels when things go wrong in this country.
Finally, and probably most importantly, the millions of ordinary people who voted for Brexit will feel that the democractic process in this country can work and that the rich and powerful who have a vested interest in the status quo do not always get their own way.
Un fecking believable
Sorry mate, but I can only LOL your comment because it is the same old, same old. You have never explained how membership of the EU prevented you or our elected representatives from dealing with the pressing political issues of the day for most people which , I dare to suggest, would be as follows:
1. How to fund and make more efficient the NHS -for all
2. How to fund and make more efficient and humane, elderly care for the vast majority
3. How to reform the uniquely dysfunctional UK property market.
4. How to reform our transport infrastructure, particularly our railway system which drives everybody nuts all day, every day (see SE Trains thread)
5. How to reform the preposterous cost structures which have grown up around our universities, and the lack of alternatives which might equip more of our young people to build careers.
Thye are the issues for most "ordinary people" are they not? How has EU membership ever stopped us dealing with all of them in our own national interest? Has any serious politician even cited "the EU" as the main barrier to doing so? Other than a lame attempt regarding the railways -from that twat Corbyn- nobody has done so, because there is nothing at all stopping us. Quite rightly since no other EU country of our wealth has any of these problems to the same extent.
Again, sorry to personalise this mate, but you just keep trotting out the same old cliches, which I have almost learnt by heart by now:
taken back control of our political process./overcome national sovereignty impervious to democratic control / will feel that the democractic process in this country can work/ the rich and powerful who have a vested interest in the status quo do not always get their own way./
Look at that list above. What stops us fixing them, right now?
Head in hands. Again.
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
What does this actually mean ?
This entire debate (not just on CL) seems to consist of both sides burying their heads in the sand and ignoring what the other side are saying. It's kinda depressing to see.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
I live in a comfortably safe Labour constituency, but I still vote every time even though the result is a foregone conclusion. Never take your vote for granted, one day we may have to fight for it again.
Ironically you underline this point by denigrating the official/academic reports into the affects of immigration yet seem quite prepared to accept as empirical evidence the anecdotal experience of a few posters on here.
Anyway, others have also addressed your points better than I could so I won't add to that other that to say that I wanted to thank you for your contribution.
.
No it’s not just my opinion is it. It’s a fact that this country will fall on its arse if we curtail immigration to any great extent. I’m not just talking about doctors, nurses and IT experts. We will fall short in people serving us coffee, looking after the elderly and picking our crops.
Please tell me where we make up the numbers and yet stick to the mantra of gaining control of our borders ? The circle can’t be squared. There is perhaps an argument that numbers coming into the country need to be looked at but at least half of those that come to these shores are from outside the EU and we can control that ourselves. Nothing to do with the EU.
The classic response to my point is that we allow in those we need. Don’t you see that we need those here. We have we’re told almost full employment. We can’t afford to lose those EU workers who carry out work we wouldn’t otherwise be able to do.
No matter which way it’s painted. The argument for immigration is all about leave rhetoric not cold hard reality.
You also have no idea how any of those people would have voted, I know two people who would have voted brexit, but didn't, as they didn't think their side stood a chance, so it goes both ways.
The truth has now gradually emerged that people voted Brexit for a mish-mash of reasons (as can be seen on CL) and that it wasn't even down to demographics/income/education. A much better correlation was with other outlooks on life, such as views on capital punishment, and other aspects of the order vs tolerance spectrum. That explains the completely divergent views of my brother and my sister who would fall into exactly the same demographic in terms of age, education level (grammar school but not beyond), and earnings (barely scraping average, especially given that they live in London).
You have stated your reasons, at least in general cliche filled terms why you voted Leave. You kid yourself mightily if you think you represent the voice of Brexit. I am afraid there are many different voices of the Brexit vote, some of them reasoned and focused on free trade, like e.g. Dippenhall, and others ranging from the ugly to the downright sinister.
Please point me in the direction of how we undo Brexit at the polls afterwards, or during through legal challenge? Or is Brexit unique in democratic history as being a one time only deal, impossible to change through any democratic or legal process?
Seems to me that Brexit is like a one time vote to appoint a (hopefully benevolent) dictator for life. How long into their reign does it stops becoming a democracy?
As far as I am concerned the whole referendum and subsequent shit fest is criminal.
*and it's 'honoured' !