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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • edited September 2017
    From what I have heard about May's speech today, it might be sensible - stating the need for a transitionary period after 2019. My only issue is, it probably needs to be 5 years rather than 2. It is ridiculous imposing this tight deadline to extracate us from years of ties. Many, many businesses are affected by this as they trade in the single market - including my own. Can't Brexiters just accept we are leaving and want it done properly?
  • Why do we PUT words in capital LETTERS, I think most PEOPLE know what remain AND leave means. ;-)
  • image

    From what I have heard about May's speech today, it might be sensible - stating the need for a transitionary period after 2019. My only issue is, it probably needs to be 5 years rather than 2. It is ridiculous imposing this tight deadline to extracate us from years of ties. Many, many businesses are affected by this as they trade in the single market - including my own. Can't Brexiters just accept we are leaving and want it done properly?

    The transition period that Britain will need can only be granted by a vote from the 27 members of the EU and it just takes one to veto it. A prolonged state of flux is not in the Republic of Ireland's interests
  • LenGlover said:

    In an EU context REMAIN means status quo ie steady progress to 'ever closer union' as outlined by Juncker last week.

    LEAVE, as evidenced by the shambles of negotiations, can happen in a number of ways.

    Many on the LEAVE side are as fed up with the ineptness of May, Davis et al as any REMAINER.

    My personal view is that, as closet remainers, they actively want to screw it up so that we later return to the EU and abolish the pound as a giant leap to further integration.

    Seems like Lord Michael Heseltine agrees.

    http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-uk-wont-leave-the-eu-and-will-one-day-join-the-euro-says-lord-heseltine/ar-AAsknsX?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

    Not normally someone I agree with! We live in strange times.
  • LenGlover said:

    In an EU context REMAIN means status quo ie steady progress to 'ever closer union' as outlined by Juncker last week.

    LEAVE, as evidenced by the shambles of negotiations, can happen in a number of ways.

    Many on the LEAVE side are as fed up with the ineptness of May, Davis et al as any REMAINER.

    My personal view is that, as closet remainers, they actively want to screw it up so that we later return to the EU and abolish the pound as a giant leap to further integration.

    I fear you give them too much credit for having any kind of plan Len, I really don't think that they are competent enough even to think about screwing it up (although they are making a good go of it). Hasn't Davis always been a leaver though?
  • Calm down, calm down lads.

    I didn't mean anything by posting this thread, honest!.

  • edited September 2017

    seth plum said:

    @NornIrishAddick
    So what shall we do ?

    Cancel Brexit because we can't control a border ?
    Move the border into the sea and treat the island as an island ?
    Stay in the customs union in case someone opens fire at a customs post?

    It's unfortunate as you said, that the GFA is breaking down for other reasons, but do the people of NI or ROI really want a return to violence over this? There are probably factions that do, but these guys will resort to violence with any excuse. Should we appease them ?

    This issue has to be dealt with in as practical way as possible (probably no plan will be deemed ideal for all parties involved) - but we can't make it a deal breaker, we have to get on with it.

    You ask 'so what shall we do?'.
    All the people who voted brexit will be able to answer that one.
    The Conservative government and their brexit team will also be able to answer that one won't they?
    After all we have to get on with it.
    Any ideas yourself?
    you're wrong. I voted leave and I don't know the answer. There will be a solution, it won't derail our leaving the European Union.
    And that, my friends, is why there should never have been a referendum in the first place... :bawling:
    Normally I'd agree, but in this instance I will be eternally grateful :smile: :smiley:
  • seth plum said:

    @NornIrishAddick
    So what shall we do ?

    Cancel Brexit because we can't control a border ?
    Move the border into the sea and treat the island as an island ?
    Stay in the customs union in case someone opens fire at a customs post?

    It's unfortunate as you said, that the GFA is breaking down for other reasons, but do the people of NI or ROI really want a return to violence over this? There are probably factions that do, but these guys will resort to violence with any excuse. Should we appease them ?

    This issue has to be dealt with in as practical way as possible (probably no plan will be deemed ideal for all parties involved) - but we can't make it a deal breaker, we have to get on with it.

    You ask 'so what shall we do?'.
    All the people who voted brexit will be able to answer that one.
    The Conservative government and their brexit team will also be able to answer that one won't they?
    After all we have to get on with it.
    Any ideas yourself?


    All the people who voted brexit will be able to answer that one - No, they voted on the principle and not the finite detail.

    The Conservative government and their brexit team will also be able to answer that one won't they?
    Yes, they are in charge for now.

    Any ideas yourself? - No, I work everyday to pay 650 folk to come up with the complex solutions that arise as a result of a majority General Election vote. Things like Universal Credit, NHS funding, Overseas Aid, Quantitative Easing etc are all too complex for an ordinary voter like me to to offer solutions for the elected Government - so I pay them to do it for me.
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  • cafcpolo said:

    seth plum said:

    Because you don't like the result?

    I accept the result.

    What the brexiters don't seem to like is having to implement the result because they don't seem to know how to do it, and they want others to magic up practical solutions on their behalf, solutions that are contradictory and virtually impossible.

    Maybe they don't know how because it's not their job to know how? Why do people on here expect a random bloke to have a solution to every single issue they've come up with because of the result? Claim that people didn't fully know what they were voting for, fine, no arguments against that. If the remain campaign would have done a better job in highlighting all of these issues, maybe the result would have gone the other way.
    I agree the remain campaign was inept. However, personally I and many others on here and on other social media platforms repeatedly explained the issues in a far better way than the politicians did. And Brexiters just kept repeating "scaremongering" over and over. They had no interest in listening. I think every single issue was debated on here, and 95% of the time, remain held the upper hand. All we got was "scaremongering" thrown back at us.
    The perceived 'Remainers' upper hand often comprised denigrating 'Leaver' sources as a response to points made rather than engaging in the issues or branding advocates of the 'Leave' case racist, uneducated and other personal slurs.

    Not all posters adopted that stance I should add.

    The one thing I'll single out from the 'Remain' campaign generally was the repeated meme that to stay in the EEA we had to stay in the EU. In other words the two were quite deliberately incorrectly conflated as a scare tactic even though factually incorrect.

    When the unexpected 'Leave' result was declared there was a complete about turn and the 'soft' Brexit meme evolved. Guess what? the main plank of this is to remain within the EEA!

    As I've often said, as one who voted 'Leave,' I think the 'Leave' negotiators are inept in the extreme and I favour joining EFTA in the short to medium term.

  • Fiiish said:

    cafcpolo said:

    seth plum said:

    Because you don't like the result?

    I accept the result.

    What the brexiters don't seem to like is having to implement the result because they don't seem to know how to do it, and they want others to magic up practical solutions on their behalf, solutions that are contradictory and virtually impossible.

    Maybe they don't know how because it's not their job to know how? Why do people on here expect a random bloke to have a solution to every single issue they've come up with because of the result? Claim that people didn't fully know what they were voting for, fine, no arguments against that. If the remain campaign would have done a better job in highlighting all of these issues, maybe the result would have gone the other way.
    I agree the remain campaign was inept. However, personally I and many others on here and on other social media platforms repeatedly explained the issues in a far better way than the politicians did. And Brexiters just kept repeating "scaremongering" over and over. They had no interest in listening. I think every single issue was debated on here, and 95% of the time, remain held the upper hand. All we got was "scaremongering" thrown back at us.
    The Remain campaign started at a massive disadvantage anyway: it had to undo 30 years of negative headlines and propaganda published in every form of media that had poisoned any possible debate regarding the merits of our EU membership. From unemployment to security, every possible issue that plagued ordinary voters was given a convenient scapegoat that no one dared to defend - the EU. Despite the fact that 99% of the issues that people have with the EU have actually nothing to do with our EU membership and more likely stem from Thatcherism and our incredibly poor application of neo-liberalism that had led to a patrician form of capitalism where the power and wealth is increasingly concentrated into an elite class.
    At the risk of going all Daphne... well said Fiiish. :smile:
  • LenGlover said:

    cafcpolo said:

    seth plum said:

    Because you don't like the result?

    I accept the result.

    What the brexiters don't seem to like is having to implement the result because they don't seem to know how to do it, and they want others to magic up practical solutions on their behalf, solutions that are contradictory and virtually impossible.

    Maybe they don't know how because it's not their job to know how? Why do people on here expect a random bloke to have a solution to every single issue they've come up with because of the result? Claim that people didn't fully know what they were voting for, fine, no arguments against that. If the remain campaign would have done a better job in highlighting all of these issues, maybe the result would have gone the other way.
    I agree the remain campaign was inept. However, personally I and many others on here and on other social media platforms repeatedly explained the issues in a far better way than the politicians did. And Brexiters just kept repeating "scaremongering" over and over. They had no interest in listening. I think every single issue was debated on here, and 95% of the time, remain held the upper hand. All we got was "scaremongering" thrown back at us.
    The perceived 'Remainers' upper hand often comprised denigrating 'Leaver' sources as a response to points made rather than engaging in the issues or branding advocates of the 'Leave' case racist, uneducated and other personal slurs.

    Not all posters adopted that stance I should add.

    The one thing I'll single out from the 'Remain' campaign generally was the repeated meme that to stay in the EEA we had to stay in the EU. In other words the two were quite deliberately incorrectly conflated as a scare tactic even though factually incorrect.

    When the unexpected 'Leave' result was declared there was a complete about turn and the 'soft' Brexit meme evolved. Guess what? the main plank of this is to remain within the EEA!

    As I've often said, as one who voted 'Leave,' I think the 'Leave' negotiators are inept in the extreme and I favour joining EFTA in the short to medium term.

    Not once do I recall hearing that - I recall leavers saying we could "be like Norway", and me countering it with this "we pay we have no say" article. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

    I recall linking to this http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce

    For your one example, you know there are many, many more massive whoppers that were told by the other side mate. (see above).
  • seth plum said:

    @NornIrishAddick
    So what shall we do ?

    Cancel Brexit because we can't control a border ?
    Move the border into the sea and treat the island as an island ?
    Stay in the customs union in case someone opens fire at a customs post?

    It's unfortunate as you said, that the GFA is breaking down for other reasons, but do the people of NI or ROI really want a return to violence over this? There are probably factions that do, but these guys will resort to violence with any excuse. Should we appease them ?

    This issue has to be dealt with in as practical way as possible (probably no plan will be deemed ideal for all parties involved) - but we can't make it a deal breaker, we have to get on with it.

    You ask 'so what shall we do?'.
    All the people who voted brexit will be able to answer that one.
    The Conservative government and their brexit team will also be able to answer that one won't they?
    After all we have to get on with it.
    Any ideas yourself?


    All the people who voted brexit will be able to answer that one - No, they voted on the principle and not the finite detail.

    The Conservative government and their brexit team will also be able to answer that one won't they?
    Yes, they are in charge for now.

    Any ideas yourself? - No, I work everyday to pay 650 folk to come up with the complex solutions that arise as a result of a majority General Election vote. Things like Universal Credit, NHS funding, Overseas Aid, Quantitative Easing etc are all too complex for an ordinary voter like me to to offer solutions for the elected Government - so I pay them to do it for me.
    There are some contradictions there, Phil.

    I absolutely agree that we live in a representative democracy and my representative (albeit I didn't vote for her) is supposed to represent me and the system means that the electorate put their faith in their MP representing their best interests. One of the reasons why referendums should not have a place in that representative democracy - but hey ho that's another story!!

    Nobody voted for the the Government (executive) - they are self-appointed by the leader of the party with the most votes. I didn't vote for David Davies or Liam Fox to represent me in the negotiations, or for a buffoon to represent our foreign policy.

    If laws are to be passed then Parliament should decide, not the Government without recourse to Parliament. the 650 folk that you and I and everyone else pays to come up with the complex solutions isn't the body being given that responsibility.

    Taking back control my arse.
  • Yes, true Bob, but if we had to start voting for Cabinet members we would be forever in the polling booth - especially if Jezza was ever to get in power.
  • Farage is hacked off with today's speech, that is good enough for me
  • edited September 2017

    image

    From what I have heard about May's speech today, it might be sensible - stating the need for a transitionary period after 2019. My only issue is, it probably needs to be 5 years rather than 2. It is ridiculous imposing this tight deadline to extracate us from years of ties. Many, many businesses are affected by this as they trade in the single market - including my own. Can't Brexiters just accept we are leaving and want it done properly?

    The transition period that Britain will need can only be granted by a vote from the 27 members of the EU and it just takes one to veto it. A prolonged state of flux is not in the Republic of Ireland's interests
    Yes, but it allows them to park a problem - everybody likes to do that! For us, it allows us to sort ourselves out - it has been a complete shambles so far!
  • seth plum said:

    @NornIrishAddick
    So what shall we do ?

    Cancel Brexit because we can't control a border ?
    Move the border into the sea and treat the island as an island ?
    Stay in the customs union in case someone opens fire at a customs post?

    It's unfortunate as you said, that the GFA is breaking down for other reasons, but do the people of NI or ROI really want a return to violence over this? There are probably factions that do, but these guys will resort to violence with any excuse. Should we appease them ?

    This issue has to be dealt with in as practical way as possible (probably no plan will be deemed ideal for all parties involved) - but we can't make it a deal breaker, we have to get on with it.

    You ask 'so what shall we do?'.
    All the people who voted brexit will be able to answer that one.
    The Conservative government and their brexit team will also be able to answer that one won't they?
    After all we have to get on with it.
    Any ideas yourself?


    All the people who voted brexit will be able to answer that one - No, they voted on the principle and not the finite detail.

    The Conservative government and their brexit team will also be able to answer that one won't they?
    Yes, they are in charge for now.

    Any ideas yourself? - No, I work everyday to pay 650 folk to come up with the complex solutions that arise as a result of a majority General Election vote. Things like Universal Credit, NHS funding, Overseas Aid, Quantitative Easing etc are all too complex for an ordinary voter like me to to offer solutions for the elected Government - so I pay them to do it for me.
    I appreciate what you're saying, voters voted and politicians have to make it happen. The trouble is what the voters voted for seems to be beyond what their politicians can manage .

    It could be that the voters voted for the wrong principle, or the wrong politicians, or both.

    There is an actual impact on real lives as a result of the vote, but the management of that impact seems non existent.

    I sat and watched every minute of May's speech today waiting for her to announce a solution to the Irish border. It seems she announced one, the common travel area will continue and there will be no border checks. Yet later in the speech May referred to control of the UK borders in a slightly different context positioning the UK out of the EU.

    It looks as if even in one speech today May directly contradicted herself. However if we can assume that the common travel area in Ireland will continue, and there will be no border checks there, then one of the supposed major planks of brexit, control of the UK borders, will simply not happen.

    That is one part of the principle people voted for abandoned, not implemented.
  • image

    From what I have heard about May's speech today, it might be sensible - stating the need for a transitionary period after 2019. My only issue is, it probably needs to be 5 years rather than 2. It is ridiculous imposing this tight deadline to extracate us from years of ties. Many, many businesses are affected by this as they trade in the single market - including my own. Can't Brexiters just accept we are leaving and want it done properly?

    The transition period that Britain will need can only be granted by a vote from the 27 members of the EU and it just takes one to veto it. A prolonged state of flux is not in the Republic of Ireland's interests
    Yes, but it allows them to park a problem - everybody likes to do that! For us, it allows us to sort ourselves out - it has been a complete shambles so far!
    Brexit means brexit
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  • 3 hours 16 minutes to go
  • EU has been anti British and our heritage, since day one. In line with the intention of this thread, it’s just a joke

    What about the countries who joined after us? Were they already "anti British and our heritage", and just joined to be part of the GB-hate-in? Did they gaze from afar in envy, thinking "if only we could be "anti British and [their] heritage" with others, rather than being out on a limb with our "anti British and [their] heritage" philosophy? It feels wrong being "anti British and [their] heritage" in relative isolation, when there, just over the border, so close you can almost smell it, there is another nation that is "anti British and [their] heritage", who can happily join hands with fellow EU members and celebrate their "anti British and [their] heritage" - ness, together, as one.

    Or did they become "anti British and our heritage" once they joined, just for shits and giggles? "We have always quite liked the British, with their milky tea, bad weather and quirky sense of humour, but what the hell, lets go "anti British and [their]heritage" it'll be a lark wont it.."

    What about those countries that didn't exist when we joined the EU? How do they stand on the whole "anti British and our heritage" issue? Were they formed solely so they could partake in the entire "anti British and our heritage" bun-fight, was it drafted into their constitution from day one, or did they have to sign a caveat on joining that said "despite your previous good relationship with Britain, we now expect you to be "anti British and [their] heritage""?

    I think we should be told...
    This is a fairly good Stewart Lee impression
  • Leuth said:

    EU has been anti British and our heritage, since day one. In line with the intention of this thread, it’s just a joke

    What about the countries who joined after us? Were they already "anti British and our heritage", and just joined to be part of the GB-hate-in? Did they gaze from afar in envy, thinking "if only we could be "anti British and [their] heritage" with others, rather than being out on a limb with our "anti British and [their] heritage" philosophy? It feels wrong being "anti British and [their] heritage" in relative isolation, when there, just over the border, so close you can almost smell it, there is another nation that is "anti British and [their] heritage", who can happily join hands with fellow EU members and celebrate their "anti British and [their] heritage" - ness, together, as one.

    Or did they become "anti British and our heritage" once they joined, just for shits and giggles? "We have always quite liked the British, with their milky tea, bad weather and quirky sense of humour, but what the hell, lets go "anti British and [their]heritage" it'll be a lark wont it.."

    What about those countries that didn't exist when we joined the EU? How do they stand on the whole "anti British and our heritage" issue? Were they formed solely so they could partake in the entire "anti British and our heritage" bun-fight, was it drafted into their constitution from day one, or did they have to sign a caveat on joining that said "despite your previous good relationship with Britain, we now expect you to be "anti British and [their] heritage""?

    I think we should be told...
    This is a fairly good Stewart Lee impression
    Thanks Leuth, I had his voice in my head as I wrote it! :+1:
  • LenGlover said:

    cafcpolo said:

    seth plum said:

    Because you don't like the result?

    I accept the result.

    What the brexiters don't seem to like is having to implement the result because they don't seem to know how to do it, and they want others to magic up practical solutions on their behalf, solutions that are contradictory and virtually impossible.

    Maybe they don't know how because it's not their job to know how? Why do people on here expect a random bloke to have a solution to every single issue they've come up with because of the result? Claim that people didn't fully know what they were voting for, fine, no arguments against that. If the remain campaign would have done a better job in highlighting all of these issues, maybe the result would have gone the other way.
    I agree the remain campaign was inept. However, personally I and many others on here and on other social media platforms repeatedly explained the issues in a far better way than the politicians did. And Brexiters just kept repeating "scaremongering" over and over. They had no interest in listening. I think every single issue was debated on here, and 95% of the time, remain held the upper hand. All we got was "scaremongering" thrown back at us.
    The perceived 'Remainers' upper hand often comprised denigrating 'Leaver' sources as a response to points made rather than engaging in the issues or branding advocates of the 'Leave' case racist, uneducated and other personal slurs.

    Not all posters adopted that stance I should add.

    The one thing I'll single out from the 'Remain' campaign generally was the repeated meme that to stay in the EEA we had to stay in the EU. In other words the two were quite deliberately incorrectly conflated as a scare tactic even though factually incorrect.

    When the unexpected 'Leave' result was declared there was a complete about turn and the 'soft' Brexit meme evolved. Guess what? the main plank of this is to remain within the EEA!

    As I've often said, as one who voted 'Leave,' I think the 'Leave' negotiators are inept in the extreme and I favour joining EFTA in the short to medium term.

    Not once do I recall hearing that - I recall leavers saying we could "be like Norway", and me countering it with this "we pay we have no say" article. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

    I recall linking to this http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce

    For your one example, you know there are many, many more massive whoppers that were told by the other side mate. (see above).
    If only there had been some public spirited experts who could have warned us about this Brexshit mayhem. Oh, apparently there were, but Gove knew better and told people that it didn't matter what experts thought. Now the pigeons are coming home to roost:

    Screenshot 2017-09-23 15.42.02


  • I am not the only one that dreads a future ruled forever by the 'democratically' elected Jacob Rees Mogg and his ilk. Free market Tories ought to rejoice that such choice exists for some of us.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41374020
  • edited September 2017
    image
  • image

    From what I have heard about May's speech today, it might be sensible - stating the need for a transitionary period after 2019. My only issue is, it probably needs to be 5 years rather than 2. It is ridiculous imposing this tight deadline to extracate us from years of ties. Many, many businesses are affected by this as they trade in the single market - including my own. Can't Brexiters just accept we are leaving and want it done properly?

    The transition period that Britain will need can only be granted by a vote from the 27 members of the EU and it just takes one to veto it. A prolonged state of flux is not in the Republic of Ireland's interests
    Yes, but it allows them to park a problem - everybody likes to do that! For us, it allows us to sort ourselves out - it has been a complete shambles so far!
    Brexit means brexit
    But if you give yourself enough time to sort out an exit that suits all parties, it is still Brexit. Why are some people so against that - It defies logic! We have been in since 1973 - surely putting a gun to everybody's head and forcing them to rush it is not going to help anybody. It certainly won't help us.
  • image

    From what I have heard about May's speech today, it might be sensible - stating the need for a transitionary period after 2019. My only issue is, it probably needs to be 5 years rather than 2. It is ridiculous imposing this tight deadline to extracate us from years of ties. Many, many businesses are affected by this as they trade in the single market - including my own. Can't Brexiters just accept we are leaving and want it done properly?

    The transition period that Britain will need can only be granted by a vote from the 27 members of the EU and it just takes one to veto it. A prolonged state of flux is not in the Republic of Ireland's interests
    Yes, but it allows them to park a problem - everybody likes to do that! For us, it allows us to sort ourselves out - it has been a complete shambles so far!
    Brexit means brexit
    But if you give yourself enough time to sort out an exit that suits all parties, it is still Brexit. Why are some people so against that - It defies logic! We have been in since 1973 - surely putting a gun to everybody's head and forcing them to rush it is not going to help anybody. It certainly won't help us.
    With the way the country is so split on this topic, it might do us a lot of good to have a General Election before anything is finalized.

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