The new Italian government is another nail in the EU coffin. The sooner we escape the sinking ship the better.
I have just read their plans. You people really do live in cloud cuckoo land don't you? You believe anything any old twat tells you if it coincides with your idiotic prejudices. Why were people like you allowed to vote?
Algarve, just in the interest of trying to keep this thread balanced etc and trying to prevent it from becoming too divisive again, please try and avoid that sort of comment
I appreciate feelings are still very strong on this subject for many, especially those of you that have chosen to live and contribute to a life on mainland Europe, it’s just that sort of comment can be inflammatory and next thing we know it all descends into silliness. Both you and southbank put forward valuable posts on here so let’s keep it that way
All I can think to say to the leavers is OK, leave, the vote is done and over. You can spend forever going on about the Euro and Italy, but that is all the past now. Explain the future. Simply tell us the solution to the Irish land border, and any other ideas you have might have greater credibility. I am all ears for the good bits.
Solutions simple Seth - a single united Ireland - both sides ought to realise they have more in common than divides them. They’d fiogotten there used to be a border that the EU now wants enforced.
My father in law was a Catholic from Clonmel in the Republic and fought as a Commando in the British army with distinction. He married the daughter of an RUC officer from Omagh who pulled a pistol on him before they eloped. Neither being safe living in their own country they ended setting up home and raising their family in Charlton,
That was a different time and a different generation and Ireland has moved on, except Brexit is now being accused of liable to bring those days back. The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard. Blaming the U.K. for the fact that an intellectually challenged minority would rather kill one another than live together as a result of Brexit is a denial of where the problem sits and who holds the key to a resolution - the people of Ireland.
When the U.K. or any other nation allows its foreign policies to to be dictated by speculation on what excuses it might give criminals to commit violence we might as well hand over the reins to them.
Alternatively you are simply buying another line of Project Fear and there is not a risk of Ireland allowing itself to descend into open warfare because an invisible border is enforced invisibly at the behest of the EU.
I agree. I think the Brexit vote has brought the reunification of Ireland 20 or 30 years earlier than would otherwise have been the case. It is sweetly ironic that the people who voted Brexit will have directly precipitated the break-up of the UK, the reunification of Ireland and complete surrender to the IRA.
All I can think to say to the leavers is OK, leave, the vote is done and over. You can spend forever going on about the Euro and Italy, but that is all the past now. Explain the future. Simply tell us the solution to the Irish land border, and any other ideas you have might have greater credibility. I am all ears for the good bits.
Solutions simple Seth - a single united Ireland - both sides ought to realise they have more in common than divides them. They’d fiogotten there used to be a border that the EU now wants enforced.
My father in law was a Catholic from Clonmel in the Republic and fought as a Commando in the British army with distinction. He married the daughter of an RUC officer from Omagh who pulled a pistol on him before they eloped. Neither being safe living in their own country they ended setting up home and raising their family in Charlton,
That was a different time and a different generation and Ireland has moved on, except Brexit is now being accused of liable to bring those days back. The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard. Blaming the U.K. for the fact that an intellectually challenged minority would rather kill one another than live together as a result of Brexit is a denial of where the problem sits and who holds the key to a resolution - the people of Ireland.
When the U.K. or any other nation allows its foreign policies to to be dictated by speculation on what excuses it might give criminals to commit violence we might as well hand over the reins to them.
Alternatively you are simply buying another line of Project Fear and there is not a risk of Ireland allowing itself to descend into open warfare because an invisible border is enforced invisibly at the behest of the EU.
I refer the right honourable gentleman to the section regarding constitution in the Belfast Agreement about establishing a United Ireland, thus:
(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
A simple solution?
Because the UK voted for brexit (the ROI didn't have a vote) then it is now the right time for, as you say 'The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard.'?
Ask yourself why right now?
Ask yourself why part of the UK (Northern Ireland) is now the 'back yard' of the Republic of Ireland, that goes against everything Theresa May has been saying about the break up of the Union.
It would solve the problem created by the people of the UK possibly, yet maybe an appropriate re-phrasing should read:
'The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out the mess created by the people of the UK.'
I don't want any violence, but the simple solution you envisage involves borders, very sensitive issues as the history of Ireland has shown, and indeed as we see right now in Israel.
You use the phrase 'live together as a result of brexit'. So that would imply that the citizens of the republic, that had no say regarding brexit, should have their 'sovereignty' dictated to by the citizens of the UK, who voted brexit because they wanted the restoration of their own 'sovereignty' and democracy. Do you see the irony there?
My grandfather fought with the Royal Munster Fusillers with Kitchener in the Sudan, then with them in WWI, he deserted, then re-enlisted under a different name. After WWI he helped the IRA in their struggle against British Colonial Rule in Ireland, those were indeed distant days of the past, and because of the Belfast Agreement a lot of those issues of conflict have been resolved and everybody has moved on, but the salient point is because of the Belfast Agreement'.
The police service of Northern Ireland have warned about the return to violence if there is any border infrastructure, but the simple solution is surely to keep things as they are rather than all the malarkey that would come from attempting to bring about a United Ireland, now that would be the complicated stuff, not a simple solution.
I have heard it said before with regard to the problem brexit voters have created 'let there be a United Ireland', but seeing as how brexit voters knew what they were doing how come that particular call didn't come before the referendum? How come the process of brexiters uniting Ireland didn't start 23 months ago after the referendum result if it is a simple as you suggest?
It is still entirely beholden on the brexit voters to sort this problem out. You say that the border is something that the EU wants enforced, well Northern Irish Addick is the expert on this, but as I understand it the border would be the inevitable result of a 'hard' brexit, not something that the EU would want to enforce, but something that would follow on inevitably like getting wet by going out in the rain without an umbrella, it wouldn't be the fault of the rain that it happens, just a consequence of doing what you're doing.
The clock is ticking, a clock set in motion by the brexiteers not by the EU or the Republic of Ireland. When will the brexiteers reveal the magic solutions they have been keeping a secret for so long?
The huge difficulty, as the Freight Transport Association tried to persuade David Davis, & co., yesterday (and as @Bournemouth Addick has mentioned in passing), is that tariffs are only part of the issue around the Border - for business, regulation is equally if not more important.
But, for me, I think that the problem with Brexit is that (whatever the outcome with the Border) is that it is undermining the Good Friday Agreement settlement. The really brilliant part of which was that, within the EU, people in Northern Ireland could feel both British and Irish if they chose. The Government in London could even, relatively successfully, portray itself as an honest broker.
The DUP (and some others) are using Brexit, and their power over the Government, to try to bind Northern Ireland to their idea of Britishness. The really depressing thing is that the Conservative Party are seemingly on board with this. There is a strain of Unionist triumphalism that is more than a little off-putting (embodied by a DUP conference at the La Mon Hotel, where people had been burned to death in the 1970s, where delegates sang and danced to "Arlene's on fire").
Moderate Catholics/Nationalists, who were content with the status quo, are being turned away from the middle ground - I don't know for certain, but I have a feeling that those willing to vote for a United Ireland are greater in number than the polls suggest.
Brexit is helping destroy the middle ground in politics, it poisons the already difficult negotiations about Stormont and, combined with the lack of trust between the parties, is helping undo the political settlement here. It feels to me as if we've gone back almost 20 years.
The dissidents, who (by all accounts) supported Brexit for just this reason, must be delighted - and the PSNI, mindful of the possible future, have begun to stop the sale of unused barracks (because the RIC/RUC was always a gendarmerie), in preparation for the implementation of border controls.
Border infrastructure, installed because of Brexit, will just add to the kindling that has been left in a pile, doused in kerosene, and the sunlight beginning to focus on it through a magnifying glass.
The new Italian government is another nail in the EU coffin. The sooner we escape the sinking ship the better.
I have just read their plans. You people really do live in cloud cuckoo land don't you? You believe anything any old twat tells you if it coincides with your idiotic prejudices. Why were people like you allowed to vote?
Algarve, just in the interest of trying to keep this thread balanced etc and trying to prevent it from becoming too divisive again, please try and avoid that sort of comment
I appreciate feelings are still very strong on this subject for many, especially those of you that have chosen to live and contribute to a life on mainland Europe, it’s just that sort of comment can be inflammatory and next thing we know it all descends into silliness. Both you and southbank put forward valuable posts on here so let’s keep it that way
Cheers
Tell chippy to stop putting LOL next to everything that he disagrees with, even if it is a statement of fact, and I'll concur with your request.
It will be indeed a great result for the EU if it can bring the UK establishment back on board-not that difficult as most of the people who run the UK never wanted to leave in the first place. This will once again show thathowever much you are against the EU and its supporters, or 'all major politicians' as you put it, that once you have joined the EU you can never leave, even if a majority of your people want to.
I am no expert on Italy, but the election result there reflected the opinion polls, that there is a profound anti-EU feeling there, particularly among young people. If you think I have misread this then do your own research and let me know where I am wrong.
And before you or anybody else accuses me of being pro Liga or Five Star, I am not. As with most of Europe, their rise reflects the loss of authority of the old pro EU parties, which is widespread.
You want us to be swayed by the very foreigners many of your kind despise, while ignoring the feelings of the very people who will be most affected by this stupidity. And you talk to me about democracy? Why were people like you allowed to vote?
I do not expect you to be swayed by anything, given you are resistant to facts. Italians, including the youth there no longer like the EU apparently. This is not my opinion. Do your own research if you disbelieve me.
The fact is that BRITAIN'S youth are hugely pro-EU, and instead of being lazy I have provided you with evidence. Why are you resistant to that fact?
The huge difficulty, as the Freight Transport Association tried to persuade David Davis, & co., yesterday (and as @Bournemouth Addick has mentioned in passing), is that tariffs are only part of the issue around the Border - for business, regulation is equally if not more important.
But, for me, I think that the problem with Brexit is that (whatever the outcome with the Border) is that it is undermining the Good Friday Agreement settlement. The really brilliant part of which was that, within the EU, people in Northern Ireland could feel both British and Irish if they chose. The Government in London could even, relatively successfully, portray itself as an honest broker.
The DUP (and some others) are using Brexit, and their power over the Government, to try to bind Northern Ireland to their idea of Britishness. The really depressing thing is that the Conservative Party are seemingly on board with this. There is a strain of Unionist triumphalism that is more than a little off-putting (embodied by a DUP conference at the La Mon Hotel, where people had been burned to death in the 1970s, where delegates sang and danced to "Arlene's on fire").
Moderate Catholics/Nationalists, who were content with the status quo, are being turned away from the middle ground - I don't know for certain, but I have a feeling that those willing to vote for a United Ireland are greater in number than the polls suggest.
Brexit is helping destroy the middle ground in politics, it poisons the already difficult negotiations about Stormont and, combined with the lack of trust between the parties, is helping undo the political settlement here. It feels to me as if we've gone back almost 20 years.
The dissidents, who (by all accounts) supported Brexit for just this reason, must be delighted - and the PSNI, mindful of the possible future, have begun to stop the sale of unused barracks (because the RIC/RUC was always a gendarmerie), in preparation for the implementation of border controls.
Border infrastructure, installed because of Brexit, will just add to the kindling that has been left in a pile, doused in kerosene, and the sunlight beginning to focus on it through a magnifying glass.
Indeed I have mentioned this once or twice.
The focus on trying to sort out the tariff situation is probably the easier of the factors that needs resolving. The more tricky is resolving where our law on product safety, food safety, agricultural standards, livestock movements and all the rest differs from EU.
And it must right? Because otherwise we won't have taken back control. So someone, somewhere, is going to have to decide whether that lorry load of cladding for buildings being imported through Ireland (or from mainland EU) is going to meet our shiny new law to replace the Construction Products Regs. And vice versa. Frictionless trade across the EU border cannot happen. By definition.
Right from the off, before the referendum, my approach to this omnishambles has been to consider how stuff works in practise and what's the likely impact of us no longer being in the EU.
It might be boring to think, "...hold on if we are outside the EU how do we get notified of which products are dangerous and need taking action on? How will parliament find the time to review our laws and make new ones? Will manufacturers and importers soon need to make to two different standards, one for us, one for export? Or how will our crops get picked, or where will we get our hospital porters from? You know, the stuff that actually matters rather than some faux victory for "sovereignty".
I get that for some people it's more important to bask in the victory of taking back control while crops go off in the fields and we end up spending £billions on our own satellites to replace the ones we already had access to...but it's not for me.
The whole customs union/Irish border thing is Brexit in a microcosm. Sadly.
All I can think to say to the leavers is OK, leave, the vote is done and over. You can spend forever going on about the Euro and Italy, but that is all the past now. Explain the future. Simply tell us the solution to the Irish land border, and any other ideas you have might have greater credibility. I am all ears for the good bits.
Solutions simple Seth - a single united Ireland - both sides ought to realise they have more in common than divides them. They’d fiogotten there used to be a border that the EU now wants enforced.
My father in law was a Catholic from Clonmel in the Republic and fought as a Commando in the British army with distinction. He married the daughter of an RUC officer from Omagh who pulled a pistol on him before they eloped. Neither being safe living in their own country they ended setting up home and raising their family in Charlton,
That was a different time and a different generation and Ireland has moved on, except Brexit is now being accused of liable to bring those days back. The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard. Blaming the U.K. for the fact that an intellectually challenged minority would rather kill one another than live together as a result of Brexit is a denial of where the problem sits and who holds the key to a resolution - the people of Ireland.
When the U.K. or any other nation allows its foreign policies to to be dictated by speculation on what excuses it might give criminals to commit violence we might as well hand over the reins to them.
Alternatively you are simply buying another line of Project Fear and there is not a risk of Ireland allowing itself to descend into open warfare because an invisible border is enforced invisibly at the behest of the EU.
I agree. I think the Brexit vote has brought the reunification of Ireland 20 or 30 years earlier than would otherwise have been the case. It is sweetly ironic that the people who voted Brexit will have directly precipitated the break-up of the UK, the reunification of Ireland and complete surrender to the IRA.
Northern Ireland is a colony and the UK has allowed colonies the right of self determination. If the people of Ireland vote for re-unification it is democracy and not the result of threatened violence and nothing to do with surrendering to anyone. The only people calling for surrender to the threat of violence are those who say the UK shouldn't have voted for Brexit.
@seth plum - Why now? - Because the circumstances precipitated by a random event can force the issue rather than a political initiative which would struggle to retain objectivity against the innate sectarian biases.
"The sovereignty of the Republic would be dictated by the UK" !!!! I assume this was a joke. Only the people of Ireland can make the call. If the UK has created the climate for the issue to be faced up to that is an unintended random outcome of the vote and furthest from the mind of any Brexit voter i suggest. Persisting in the myth that the UK had the responsibility to foresee and predict accurately the outcome of every conceivable consequence of Brexit is fantasy. As a clean Brexit has been sidelined, we don't know exactly where we will end up, let alone Ireland.
A hard border is about nothing except collecting money. Prioritise the need for the well-being of citizens above all else and the solutions easy. Follow the ideology of the EU that rules must be obeyed that prevent competitive advantages being exploited, even if that is not the intention, and you end with the contrived border issue. Ireland is not sure whether to shit or bust and is currently holding out for EU ideology over a sensible compromise that everyone wants to work. Not hard to think that it is another problem being exploited in order to frustrate negotiations, the standard modus operandi of the EU.
All I can think to say to the leavers is OK, leave, the vote is done and over. You can spend forever going on about the Euro and Italy, but that is all the past now. Explain the future. Simply tell us the solution to the Irish land border, and any other ideas you have might have greater credibility. I am all ears for the good bits.
Solutions simple Seth - a single united Ireland - both sides ought to realise they have more in common than divides them. They’d fiogotten there used to be a border that the EU now wants enforced.
My father in law was a Catholic from Clonmel in the Republic and fought as a Commando in the British army with distinction. He married the daughter of an RUC officer from Omagh who pulled a pistol on him before they eloped. Neither being safe living in their own country they ended setting up home and raising their family in Charlton,
That was a different time and a different generation and Ireland has moved on, except Brexit is now being accused of liable to bring those days back. The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard. Blaming the U.K. for the fact that an intellectually challenged minority would rather kill one another than live together as a result of Brexit is a denial of where the problem sits and who holds the key to a resolution - the people of Ireland.
When the U.K. or any other nation allows its foreign policies to to be dictated by speculation on what excuses it might give criminals to commit violence we might as well hand over the reins to them.
Alternatively you are simply buying another line of Project Fear and there is not a risk of Ireland allowing itself to descend into open warfare because an invisible border is enforced invisibly at the behest of the EU.
I agree. I think the Brexit vote has brought the reunification of Ireland 20 or 30 years earlier than would otherwise have been the case. It is sweetly ironic that the people who voted Brexit will have directly precipitated the break-up of the UK, the reunification of Ireland and complete surrender to the IRA.
Northern Ireland is a colony and the UK has allowed colonies the right of self determination. If the people of Ireland vote for re-unification it is democracy and not the result of threatened violence and nothing to do with surrendering to anyone. The only people calling for surrender to the threat of violence are those who say the UK shouldn't have voted for Brexit.
@seth plum - Why now? - Because the circumstances precipitated by a random event can force the issue rather than a political initiative which would struggle to retain objectivity against the innate sectarian biases.
"The sovereignty of the Republic would be dictated by the UK" !!!! I assume this was a joke. Only the people of Ireland can make the call. If the UK has created the climate for the issue to be faced up to that is an unintended random outcome of the vote and furthest from the mind of any Brexit voter i suggest. Persisting in the myth that the UK had the responsibility to foresee and predict accurately the outcome of every conceivable consequence of Brexit is fantasy. As a clean Brexit has been sidelined, we don't know exactly where we will end up, let alone Ireland.
A hard border is about nothing except collecting money. Prioritise the need for the well-being of citizens above all else and the solutions easy. Follow the ideology of the EU that rules must be obeyed that prevent competitive advantages being exploited, even if that is not the intention, and you end with the contrived border issue. Ireland is not sure whether to shit or bust and is currently holding out for EU ideology over a sensible compromise that everyone wants to work. Not hard to think that it is another problem being exploited in order to frustrate negotiations, the standard modus operandi of the EU.
It really isn't about nothing except collecting money, though money is not irrelevant. The real time and cost implications for business are to be found in regulations.
The firmly expressed wish of the UK Government is that it will spring free from the clutches of the "evil EU" and be able to gambol freely in the sunlit uplands of buccaneering Brexit future free trade agreements (and even the dappled glades of the WTO), because it will be able to diverge from EU standards and regulations. But such a future will necessarily have consequences at all UK/EU borders.
The EU jealously guards its standards and regulations, in no small part to prioritise the well-being of citizens across the EU. The CE mark, for one, is not just a pretty label. Once the UK is no longer part of the systems of regulation and assurance, there will have to be new processes put in place, effectively at the point of entry, to ensure that products passing from one regulatory jurisdiction to the other meet the relevant standards. Both sides of the UK/EU border will, unless the UK seeks to have no control over the standards of anything entering its market, require some form of infrastructure.
In Northern Ireland's case, the situation is complicated by the quantities of live and/or raw agricultural produce that crosses the border without any form of check today. This is only possible because the UK and Ireland are both within the same trading structure. There is no circumstance where, even with a wide ranging FTA the EU or UK could allow for the passage of agricultural produce without sanitary and phyto-sanitary controls in place. And, in the case of livestock, it would be the height of idiocy to not have these controls on the border itself - as foot and mouth outbreaks within the UK have shown previously, the last thing that is needed is a process that allows infected stock enter into a jurisdiction without assessment.
But, and this is the really important part, the Irish Border issue is not only about trade, or the free movement of people, though it is about that too. The concerns for the Irish Border are just as much about the political settlement, and how that affects how people view Northern Ireland and the current political process.
The border poll provisions in the Good Friday Agreement have, because of a deliberate obfuscation, allowed both Nationalist and Unionist politicians in Northern Ireland claim that it was a win for them (Sinn Fein stating that it is a stepping stone on the way to reunification and UUP/DUP that there will never be a poll). The current political dynamic is shifting the focus, with the Government (that had sought for almost 30 years to portray itself as neutral) clearly favouring one side over the other.
It is not that big a step from an aggressively British Northern Ireland, to those that see themselves as Irish (and many more, currently willing to consider themselves as Northern Irish or tacitly accepting of the Union) will begin viewing their position as that of second class citizens. Once that happens, there is a fertile ground for those wishing to promote the threat of violence (which, as the creation of Northern Ireland demonstrates, has worked before). The authorities have been blindsided before by the outbreak of violence, what can seem a relatively simple issue to address can blow up in everyone's faces.
It may be that the problems that have been seen in Northern Ireland of late would have happened anyway, but Brexit has accelerated and magnified the process - it's really not a good thing.
All I can think to say to the leavers is OK, leave, the vote is done and over. You can spend forever going on about the Euro and Italy, but that is all the past now. Explain the future. Simply tell us the solution to the Irish land border, and any other ideas you have might have greater credibility. I am all ears for the good bits.
Solutions simple Seth - a single united Ireland - both sides ought to realise they have more in common than divides them. They’d fiogotten there used to be a border that the EU now wants enforced.
My father in law was a Catholic from Clonmel in the Republic and fought as a Commando in the British army with distinction. He married the daughter of an RUC officer from Omagh who pulled a pistol on him before they eloped. Neither being safe living in their own country they ended setting up home and raising their family in Charlton,
That was a different time and a different generation and Ireland has moved on, except Brexit is now being accused of liable to bring those days back. The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard. Blaming the U.K. for the fact that an intellectually challenged minority would rather kill one another than live together as a result of Brexit is a denial of where the problem sits and who holds the key to a resolution - the people of Ireland.
When the U.K. or any other nation allows its foreign policies to to be dictated by speculation on what excuses it might give criminals to commit violence we might as well hand over the reins to them.
Alternatively you are simply buying another line of Project Fear and there is not a risk of Ireland allowing itself to descend into open warfare because an invisible border is enforced invisibly at the behest of the EU.
I agree. I think the Brexit vote has brought the reunification of Ireland 20 or 30 years earlier than would otherwise have been the case. It is sweetly ironic that the people who voted Brexit will have directly precipitated the break-up of the UK, the reunification of Ireland and complete surrender to the IRA.
Northern Ireland is a colony and the UK has allowed colonies the right of self determination. If the people of Ireland vote for re-unification it is democracy and not the result of threatened violence and nothing to do with surrendering to anyone. The only people calling for surrender to the threat of violence are those who say the UK shouldn't have voted for Brexit.
@seth plum - Why now? - Because the circumstances precipitated by a random event can force the issue rather than a political initiative which would struggle to retain objectivity against the innate sectarian biases.
"The sovereignty of the Republic would be dictated by the UK" !!!! I assume this was a joke. Only the people of Ireland can make the call. If the UK has created the climate for the issue to be faced up to that is an unintended random outcome of the vote and furthest from the mind of any Brexit voter i suggest. Persisting in the myth that the UK had the responsibility to foresee and predict accurately the outcome of every conceivable consequence of Brexit is fantasy. As a clean Brexit has been sidelined, we don't know exactly where we will end up, let alone Ireland.
A hard border is about nothing except collecting money. Prioritise the need for the well-being of citizens above all else and the solutions easy. Follow the ideology of the EU that rules must be obeyed that prevent competitive advantages being exploited, even if that is not the intention, and you end with the contrived border issue. Ireland is not sure whether to shit or bust and is currently holding out for EU ideology over a sensible compromise that everyone wants to work. Not hard to think that it is another problem being exploited in order to frustrate negotiations, the standard modus operandi of the EU.
Thank you for this reply.
We differ in that you say the time for change is ripe because of the random event of brexit, I say that brexit is not a random event from the perspective of Irish citizens (who didn't have a vote), and therefore initiating change to a United Ireland is indeed something the UK would be compelling because of the brexit impasse, not because of random circumstances.
If the population of the Republic of Ireland had participated in the UK brexit referendum things would be different not least because leavers would have likely lost, but the sovereignty/democracy aspect would have caused ructions, with the UK population complaining that a foreign power holds sway over domestic policy, yet this is what you propose for the ROI, that a foreign power (the UK) holds sway over their policy.
You talk of unintended consequences, and how brexit voters could not have been expected to anticipate what they voted for. Really?
That could be interpreted as a leap in the dark for brexit voters with no preparedness to accept responsibility for their victory, which is indeed what seems to be happening, with the extra frisson of blaming others if they point out the difficulties caused, and even hatred of others for not coming up with solutions to unstated problems and aspirations.
I absolutely disagree that the border issue is contrived. When the UK votes to leave something, then there are borders that separate the UK from whatever it leaves, it is not a contrivance but the consequence of nation states and nationalism.
I (helpfully I thought) posted the appropriate section of the Belfast Agreement in order to explore how simple or difficult a border solution would be in terms of a United Ireland, you have not responded to that in any detail, yet it is a treaty the UK signed up to.
OK, but now you talk of a sensible compromise. Do you want to suggest what that may be, or are you stuck at the United Ireland position?
I know it irritates, but I absolutely believe that those who proposed, voted for, and are managing brexit are the ones to solve the problems, why should those who don't like what has happened suggest solutions, especially when they don't exist anyway?
All I can think to say to the leavers is OK, leave, the vote is done and over. You can spend forever going on about the Euro and Italy, but that is all the past now. Explain the future. Simply tell us the solution to the Irish land border, and any other ideas you have might have greater credibility. I am all ears for the good bits.
Solutions simple Seth - a single united Ireland - both sides ought to realise they have more in common than divides them. They’d fiogotten there used to be a border that the EU now wants enforced.
My father in law was a Catholic from Clonmel in the Republic and fought as a Commando in the British army with distinction. He married the daughter of an RUC officer from Omagh who pulled a pistol on him before they eloped. Neither being safe living in their own country they ended setting up home and raising their family in Charlton,
That was a different time and a different generation and Ireland has moved on, except Brexit is now being accused of liable to bring those days back. The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard. Blaming the U.K. for the fact that an intellectually challenged minority would rather kill one another than live together as a result of Brexit is a denial of where the problem sits and who holds the key to a resolution - the people of Ireland.
When the U.K. or any other nation allows its foreign policies to to be dictated by speculation on what excuses it might give criminals to commit violence we might as well hand over the reins to them.
Alternatively you are simply buying another line of Project Fear and there is not a risk of Ireland allowing itself to descend into open warfare because an invisible border is enforced invisibly at the behest of the EU.
I agree. I think the Brexit vote has brought the reunification of Ireland 20 or 30 years earlier than would otherwise have been the case. It is sweetly ironic that the people who voted Brexit will have directly precipitated the break-up of the UK, the reunification of Ireland and complete surrender to the IRA.
Northern Ireland is a colony and the UK has allowed colonies the right of self determination. If the people of Ireland vote for re-unification it is democracy and not the result of threatened violence and nothing to do with surrendering to anyone. The only people calling for surrender to the threat of violence are those who say the UK shouldn't have voted for Brexit.
@seth plum - Why now? - Because the circumstances precipitated by a random event can force the issue rather than a political initiative which would struggle to retain objectivity against the innate sectarian biases.
"The sovereignty of the Republic would be dictated by the UK" !!!! I assume this was a joke. Only the people of Ireland can make the call. If the UK has created the climate for the issue to be faced up to that is an unintended random outcome of the vote and furthest from the mind of any Brexit voter i suggest. Persisting in the myth that the UK had the responsibility to foresee and predict accurately the outcome of every conceivable consequence of Brexit is fantasy. As a clean Brexit has been sidelined, we don't know exactly where we will end up, let alone Ireland.
A hard border is about nothing except collecting money. Prioritise the need for the well-being of citizens above all else and the solutions easy. Follow the ideology of the EU that rules must be obeyed that prevent competitive advantages being exploited, even if that is not the intention, and you end with the contrived border issue. Ireland is not sure whether to shit or bust and is currently holding out for EU ideology over a sensible compromise that everyone wants to work. Not hard to think that it is another problem being exploited in order to frustrate negotiations, the standard modus operandi of the EU.
Really? Someone should explain that to our Border Force then. Maybe we could replace them with a form online then. Where drug dealers, people smugglers, tobacco smugglers, counterfeiters, sellers of knocked off dangerous phone chargers, bush meat importers and people bringing in all sorts of other prohibited products could declare them to the authorities?
Carry on pretending it's easy and only about applying the tariffs by all means if it helps but the clock's ticking away...
I thought I saw a very recent poll stating only 21% of northern Irish citizens were in favour of unification with Ireland. So if they self determine, it will be in favour of the U.K.
It will be indeed a great result for the EU if it can bring the UK establishment back on board-not that difficult as most of the people who run the UK never wanted to leave in the first place. This will once again show thathowever much you are against the EU and its supporters, or 'all major politicians' as you put it, that once you have joined the EU you can never leave, even if a majority of your people want to.
I am no expert on Italy, but the election result there reflected the opinion polls, that there is a profound anti-EU feeling there, particularly among young people. If you think I have misread this then do your own research and let me know where I am wrong.
And before you or anybody else accuses me of being pro Liga or Five Star, I am not. As with most of Europe, their rise reflects the loss of authority of the old pro EU parties, which is widespread.
You want us to be swayed by the very foreigners many of your kind despise, while ignoring the feelings of the very people who will be most affected by this stupidity. And you talk to me about democracy? Why were people like you allowed to vote?
I do not expect you to be swayed by anything, given you are resistant to facts. Italians, including the youth there no longer like the EU apparently. This is not my opinion. Do your own research if you disbelieve me.
The fact is that BRITAIN'S youth are hugely pro-EU, and instead of being lazy I have provided you with evidence. Why are you resistant to that fact?
I don't doubt the evidence for one moment. My sons 26 & 23 have no interest in politics and Brexit and couldn't give a fig one way or the other. I've asked them both if their friends have similar views and they said yes, none of them care, one way or the other. Perhaps, this goes some way to explaining the lack of votes in the referendum from the younger generation.
I've no idea what this proves (it doesn't), but thought I'd mention it purely out of interest.
I thought I saw a very recent poll stating only 21% of northern Irish citizens were in favour of unification with Ireland. So if they self determine, it will be in favour of the U.K.
I'm not convinced that the polling is all that terribly accurate, to be honest. And it largely depends on the questions being asked, and who is asking.
My gut feeling is that the percentage is higher than that.
Look at the vote share of Sinn Fein, I'd expect almost all of their supporters, and a fair percentage of the SDLP to vote for reunification as a matter of course. It's the undecideds and the soft Unionists who may be prepared to consider a change of allegiance, depending on circumstances.
The argument made here is that the DUP have managed to sectarianise Brexit - if true, that will have an effect.
If a border poll is conducted, timing will be key, as will the form of Brexit achieved.
It will be indeed a great result for the EU if it can bring the UK establishment back on board-not that difficult as most of the people who run the UK never wanted to leave in the first place. This will once again show thathowever much you are against the EU and its supporters, or 'all major politicians' as you put it, that once you have joined the EU you can never leave, even if a majority of your people want to.
I am no expert on Italy, but the election result there reflected the opinion polls, that there is a profound anti-EU feeling there, particularly among young people. If you think I have misread this then do your own research and let me know where I am wrong.
And before you or anybody else accuses me of being pro Liga or Five Star, I am not. As with most of Europe, their rise reflects the loss of authority of the old pro EU parties, which is widespread.
You want us to be swayed by the very foreigners many of your kind despise, while ignoring the feelings of the very people who will be most affected by this stupidity. And you talk to me about democracy? Why were people like you allowed to vote?
I do not expect you to be swayed by anything, given you are resistant to facts. Italians, including the youth there no longer like the EU apparently. This is not my opinion. Do your own research if you disbelieve me.
The fact is that BRITAIN'S youth are hugely pro-EU, and instead of being lazy I have provided you with evidence. Why are you resistant to that fact?
I don't doubt the evidence for one moment. My sons 26 & 23 have no interest in politics and Brexit and couldn't give a fig one way or the other. I've asked them both if their friends have similar views and they said yes, none of them care, one way or the other. Perhaps, this goes some way to explaining the lack of votes in the referendum from the younger generation.
I've no idea what this proves (it doesn't), but thought I'd mention it purely out of interest.
Turnout from younger voters was nowhere near as low as first and widely reported though:
The new Italian government is another nail in the EU coffin. The sooner we escape the sinking ship the better.
I have just read their plans. You people really do live in cloud cuckoo land don't you? You believe anything any old twat tells you if it coincides with your idiotic prejudices. Why were people like you allowed to vote?
Algarve, just in the interest of trying to keep this thread balanced etc and trying to prevent it from becoming too divisive again, please try and avoid that sort of comment
I appreciate feelings are still very strong on this subject for many, especially those of you that have chosen to live and contribute to a life on mainland Europe, it’s just that sort of comment can be inflammatory and next thing we know it all descends into silliness. Both you and southbank put forward valuable posts on here so let’s keep it that way
Cheers
Tell chippy to stop putting LOL next to everything that he disagrees with, even if it is a statement of fact, and I'll concur with your request.
The new Italian government is another nail in the EU coffin. The sooner we escape the sinking ship the better.
I have just read their plans. You people really do live in cloud cuckoo land don't you? You believe anything any old twat tells you if it coincides with your idiotic prejudices. Why were people like you allowed to vote?
Algarve, just in the interest of trying to keep this thread balanced etc and trying to prevent it from becoming too divisive again, please try and avoid that sort of comment
I appreciate feelings are still very strong on this subject for many, especially those of you that have chosen to live and contribute to a life on mainland Europe, it’s just that sort of comment can be inflammatory and next thing we know it all descends into silliness. Both you and southbank put forward valuable posts on here so let’s keep it that way
Cheers
Tell chippy to stop putting LOL next to everything that he disagrees with, even if it is a statement of fact, and I'll concur with your request.
It will be indeed a great result for the EU if it can bring the UK establishment back on board-not that difficult as most of the people who run the UK never wanted to leave in the first place. This will once again show thathowever much you are against the EU and its supporters, or 'all major politicians' as you put it, that once you have joined the EU you can never leave, even if a majority of your people want to.
I am no expert on Italy, but the election result there reflected the opinion polls, that there is a profound anti-EU feeling there, particularly among young people. If you think I have misread this then do your own research and let me know where I am wrong.
And before you or anybody else accuses me of being pro Liga or Five Star, I am not. As with most of Europe, their rise reflects the loss of authority of the old pro EU parties, which is widespread.
You want us to be swayed by the very foreigners many of your kind despise, while ignoring the feelings of the very people who will be most affected by this stupidity. And you talk to me about democracy? Why were people like you allowed to vote?
I do not expect you to be swayed by anything, given you are resistant to facts. Italians, including the youth there no longer like the EU apparently. This is not my opinion. Do your own research if you disbelieve me.
The fact is that BRITAIN'S youth are hugely pro-EU, and instead of being lazy I have provided you with evidence. Why are you resistant to that fact?
I don't doubt the evidence for one moment. My sons 26 & 23 have no interest in politics and Brexit and couldn't give a fig one way or the other. I've asked them both if their friends have similar views and they said yes, none of them care, one way or the other. Perhaps, this goes some way to explaining the lack of votes in the referendum from the younger generation.
I've no idea what this proves (it doesn't), but thought I'd mention it purely out of interest.
Turnout from younger voters was nowhere near as low as first and widely reported though:
And there is swathes and mountains of evidence they voted for the status quo. Because they did not know what they were voting for. Now where else have i heard that.
I take Chippys lols as an expression of glee at the pissed offness of us brexit losers. As far as I am concerned he can freely continue to express his glee in this brief way. I shall continue to express my pissed offness, but at greater length with more developed arguments.
All I can think to say to the leavers is OK, leave, the vote is done and over. You can spend forever going on about the Euro and Italy, but that is all the past now. Explain the future. Simply tell us the solution to the Irish land border, and any other ideas you have might have greater credibility. I am all ears for the good bits.
Solutions simple Seth - a single united Ireland - both sides ought to realise they have more in common than divides them. They’d fiogotten there used to be a border that the EU now wants enforced.
My father in law was a Catholic from Clonmel in the Republic and fought as a Commando in the British army with distinction. He married the daughter of an RUC officer from Omagh who pulled a pistol on him before they eloped. Neither being safe living in their own country they ended setting up home and raising their family in Charlton,
That was a different time and a different generation and Ireland has moved on, except Brexit is now being accused of liable to bring those days back. The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard. Blaming the U.K. for the fact that an intellectually challenged minority would rather kill one another than live together as a result of Brexit is a denial of where the problem sits and who holds the key to a resolution - the people of Ireland.
When the U.K. or any other nation allows its foreign policies to to be dictated by speculation on what excuses it might give criminals to commit violence we might as well hand over the reins to them.
Alternatively you are simply buying another line of Project Fear and there is not a risk of Ireland allowing itself to descend into open warfare because an invisible border is enforced invisibly at the behest of the EU.
Brilliant! Now take that line to East Belfast and the DUP and see where it gets you. Or have you not clocked that the DUP funneled overseas donations into various Brexit campaigns. And they are now part of the coalition of chaos running Brexit?
Fact is that the western half of the six counties might tend to agree with the main thrust of your argument. And a simplistic argument for reunification can be made by anybody on the back of an envelope.
What that fails to recognise is the reasons why neither Sinn Fein nor the DUP want a return to a functioning Stormont. Both want a hard Brexit for entirely different reasons.
So you can turn choose to wash your hands of the Irish question if you will. The reality is that the history and the change process is somewhat more complex.
Then again, like all those pursuing a hard Brexit and glorious isolation, you're not really interested in experts and reality. The irony is that if this were portrayed as policy of the Irish government or the Labour Party then the Brexit brigade would be the first to be whining about the sovereignty of part of the UK!
One can only conclude that they don't give a monkey's about Belfast and the Unionist tradition. Makes one wonder what they are doing in the Conservative and Unionist Party?!
What was voted for - leave the EU. That was a starting point, nothing about defining the future relationship with the EU, that is the ending point and the outcome of negotiations.
Negotiations would then have been based on mitigating the negative consequences for both sides and compromises reached based on a defined known starting point instead of the clusterfuck drooled over by Remainers that serves only the interests of those who support the undermining of the UK's negotiating position.
What was voted for - leave the EU. That was a starting point, nothing about defining the future relationship with the EU, that is the ending point and the outcome of negotiations.
Negotiations would then have been based on mitigating the negative consequences for both sides and compromises reached based on a defined known starting point instead of the clusterfuck drooled over by Remainers that serves only the interests of those who support the undermining of the UK's negotiating position.
That sounds awfully like leaving without any agreement and seeking to then negotiate while trading on WTO terms.
But then, most of those who have talked of a "clean Brexit" really seem to want the hardest possible break with the EU (often allied to a desire for the to become a deregulated unilateral free trade Minfordesque "paradise"), regardless of the consequences.
I have a sneaking suspicion that that is unlikely to work well for a significant proportion of the population.
But I'm probably being deliberately obtuse.
As an aside, I am really not drooling over the clusterfuck that is the UK Government "policy" on Brexit.
Frankly, I'm absolutely terrified at the vista that I feel is opening before me, where the 1997 Blairite anthem that "Things can only get better" will prove just the teensiest bit false.
Comments
I appreciate feelings are still very strong on this subject for many, especially those of you that have chosen to live and contribute to a life on mainland Europe, it’s just that sort of comment can be inflammatory and next thing we know it all descends into silliness. Both you and southbank put forward valuable posts on here so let’s keep it that way
Cheers
(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
A simple solution?
Because the UK voted for brexit (the ROI didn't have a vote) then it is now the right time for, as you say 'The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out their own back yard.'?
Ask yourself why right now?
Ask yourself why part of the UK (Northern Ireland) is now the 'back yard' of the Republic of Ireland, that goes against everything Theresa May has been saying about the break up of the Union.
It would solve the problem created by the people of the UK possibly, yet maybe an appropriate re-phrasing should read:
'The people of Ireland should be grown up enough to take responsibility for sorting out the mess created by the people of the UK.'
I don't want any violence, but the simple solution you envisage involves borders, very sensitive issues as the history of Ireland has shown, and indeed as we see right now in Israel.
You use the phrase 'live together as a result of brexit'. So that would imply that the citizens of the republic, that had no say regarding brexit, should have their 'sovereignty' dictated to by the citizens of the UK, who voted brexit because they wanted the restoration of their own 'sovereignty' and democracy. Do you see the irony there?
My grandfather fought with the Royal Munster Fusillers with Kitchener in the Sudan, then with them in WWI, he deserted, then re-enlisted under a different name. After WWI he helped the IRA in their struggle against British Colonial Rule in Ireland, those were indeed distant days of the past, and because of the Belfast Agreement a lot of those issues of conflict have been resolved and everybody has moved on, but the salient point is because of the Belfast Agreement'.
The police service of Northern Ireland have warned about the return to violence if there is any border infrastructure, but the simple solution is surely to keep things as they are rather than all the malarkey that would come from attempting to bring about a United Ireland, now that would be the complicated stuff, not a simple solution.
I have heard it said before with regard to the problem brexit voters have created 'let there be a United Ireland', but seeing as how brexit voters knew what they were doing how come that particular call didn't come before the referendum? How come the process of brexiters uniting Ireland didn't start 23 months ago after the referendum result if it is a simple as you suggest?
It is still entirely beholden on the brexit voters to sort this problem out. You say that the border is something that the EU wants enforced, well Northern Irish Addick is the expert on this, but as I understand it the border would be the inevitable result of a 'hard' brexit, not something that the EU would want to enforce, but something that would follow on inevitably like getting wet by going out in the rain without an umbrella, it wouldn't be the fault of the rain that it happens, just a consequence of doing what you're doing.
The clock is ticking, a clock set in motion by the brexiteers not by the EU or the Republic of Ireland. When will the brexiteers reveal the magic solutions they have been keeping a secret for so long?
But, for me, I think that the problem with Brexit is that (whatever the outcome with the Border) is that it is undermining the Good Friday Agreement settlement. The really brilliant part of which was that, within the EU, people in Northern Ireland could feel both British and Irish if they chose. The Government in London could even, relatively successfully, portray itself as an honest broker.
The DUP (and some others) are using Brexit, and their power over the Government, to try to bind Northern Ireland to their idea of Britishness. The really depressing thing is that the Conservative Party are seemingly on board with this. There is a strain of Unionist triumphalism that is more than a little off-putting (embodied by a DUP conference at the La Mon Hotel, where people had been burned to death in the 1970s, where delegates sang and danced to "Arlene's on fire").
Moderate Catholics/Nationalists, who were content with the status quo, are being turned away from the middle ground - I don't know for certain, but I have a feeling that those willing to vote for a United Ireland are greater in number than the polls suggest.
Brexit is helping destroy the middle ground in politics, it poisons the already difficult negotiations about Stormont and, combined with the lack of trust between the parties, is helping undo the political settlement here. It feels to me as if we've gone back almost 20 years.
The dissidents, who (by all accounts) supported Brexit for just this reason, must be delighted - and the PSNI, mindful of the possible future, have begun to stop the sale of unused barracks (because the RIC/RUC was always a gendarmerie), in preparation for the implementation of border controls.
Border infrastructure, installed because of Brexit, will just add to the kindling that has been left in a pile, doused in kerosene, and the sunlight beginning to focus on it through a magnifying glass.
The focus on trying to sort out the tariff situation is probably the easier of the factors that needs resolving. The more tricky is resolving where our law on product safety, food safety, agricultural standards, livestock movements and all the rest differs from EU.
And it must right? Because otherwise we won't have taken back control. So someone, somewhere, is going to have to decide whether that lorry load of cladding for buildings being imported through Ireland (or from mainland EU) is going to meet our shiny new law to replace the Construction Products Regs. And vice versa. Frictionless trade across the EU border cannot happen. By definition.
Right from the off, before the referendum, my approach to this omnishambles has been to consider how stuff works in practise and what's the likely impact of us no longer being in the EU.
It might be boring to think, "...hold on if we are outside the EU how do we get notified of which products are dangerous and need taking action on? How will parliament find the time to review our laws and make new ones? Will manufacturers and importers soon need to make to two different standards, one for us, one for export? Or how will our crops get picked, or where will we get our hospital porters from? You know, the stuff that actually matters rather than some faux victory for "sovereignty".
I get that for some people it's more important to bask in the victory of taking back control while crops go off in the fields and we end up spending £billions on our own satellites to replace the ones we already had access to...but it's not for me.
The whole customs union/Irish border thing is Brexit in a microcosm. Sadly.
@seth plum - Why now? - Because the circumstances precipitated by a random event can force the issue rather than a political initiative which would struggle to retain objectivity against the innate sectarian biases.
"The sovereignty of the Republic would be dictated by the UK" !!!! I assume this was a joke. Only the people of Ireland can make the call. If the UK has created the climate for the issue to be faced up to that is an unintended random outcome of the vote and furthest from the mind of any Brexit voter i suggest. Persisting in the myth that the UK had the responsibility to foresee and predict accurately the outcome of every conceivable consequence of Brexit is fantasy. As a clean Brexit has been sidelined, we don't know exactly where we will end up, let alone Ireland.
A hard border is about nothing except collecting money. Prioritise the need for the well-being of citizens above all else and the solutions easy. Follow the ideology of the EU that rules must be obeyed that prevent competitive advantages being exploited, even if that is not the intention, and you end with the contrived border issue. Ireland is not sure whether to shit or bust and is currently holding out for EU ideology over a sensible compromise that everyone wants to work. Not hard to think that it is another problem being exploited in order to frustrate negotiations, the standard modus operandi of the EU.
The firmly expressed wish of the UK Government is that it will spring free from the clutches of the "evil EU" and be able to gambol freely in the sunlit uplands of buccaneering Brexit future free trade agreements (and even the dappled glades of the WTO), because it will be able to diverge from EU standards and regulations. But such a future will necessarily have consequences at all UK/EU borders.
The EU jealously guards its standards and regulations, in no small part to prioritise the well-being of citizens across the EU. The CE mark, for one, is not just a pretty label. Once the UK is no longer part of the systems of regulation and assurance, there will have to be new processes put in place, effectively at the point of entry, to ensure that products passing from one regulatory jurisdiction to the other meet the relevant standards. Both sides of the UK/EU border will, unless the UK seeks to have no control over the standards of anything entering its market, require some form of infrastructure.
In Northern Ireland's case, the situation is complicated by the quantities of live and/or raw agricultural produce that crosses the border without any form of check today. This is only possible because the UK and Ireland are both within the same trading structure. There is no circumstance where, even with a wide ranging FTA the EU or UK could allow for the passage of agricultural produce without sanitary and phyto-sanitary controls in place. And, in the case of livestock, it would be the height of idiocy to not have these controls on the border itself - as foot and mouth outbreaks within the UK have shown previously, the last thing that is needed is a process that allows infected stock enter into a jurisdiction without assessment.
But, and this is the really important part, the Irish Border issue is not only about trade, or the free movement of people, though it is about that too. The concerns for the Irish Border are just as much about the political settlement, and how that affects how people view Northern Ireland and the current political process.
The border poll provisions in the Good Friday Agreement have, because of a deliberate obfuscation, allowed both Nationalist and Unionist politicians in Northern Ireland claim that it was a win for them (Sinn Fein stating that it is a stepping stone on the way to reunification and UUP/DUP that there will never be a poll). The current political dynamic is shifting the focus, with the Government (that had sought for almost 30 years to portray itself as neutral) clearly favouring one side over the other.
It is not that big a step from an aggressively British Northern Ireland, to those that see themselves as Irish (and many more, currently willing to consider themselves as Northern Irish or tacitly accepting of the Union) will begin viewing their position as that of second class citizens. Once that happens, there is a fertile ground for those wishing to promote the threat of violence (which, as the creation of Northern Ireland demonstrates, has worked before). The authorities have been blindsided before by the outbreak of violence, what can seem a relatively simple issue to address can blow up in everyone's faces.
It may be that the problems that have been seen in Northern Ireland of late would have happened anyway, but Brexit has accelerated and magnified the process - it's really not a good thing.
We differ in that you say the time for change is ripe because of the random event of brexit, I say that brexit is not a random event from the perspective of Irish citizens (who didn't have a vote), and therefore initiating change to a United Ireland is indeed something the UK would be compelling because of the brexit impasse, not because of random circumstances.
If the population of the Republic of Ireland had participated in the UK brexit referendum things would be different not least because leavers would have likely lost, but the sovereignty/democracy aspect would have caused ructions, with the UK population complaining that a foreign power holds sway over domestic policy, yet this is what you propose for the ROI, that a foreign power (the UK) holds sway over their policy.
You talk of unintended consequences, and how brexit voters could not have been expected to anticipate what they voted for. Really?
That could be interpreted as a leap in the dark for brexit voters with no preparedness to accept responsibility for their victory, which is indeed what seems to be happening, with the extra frisson of blaming others if they point out the difficulties caused, and even hatred of others for not coming up with solutions to unstated problems and aspirations.
I absolutely disagree that the border issue is contrived. When the UK votes to leave something, then there are borders that separate the UK from whatever it leaves, it is not a contrivance but the consequence of nation states and nationalism.
I (helpfully I thought) posted the appropriate section of the Belfast Agreement in order to explore how simple or difficult a border solution would be in terms of a United Ireland, you have not responded to that in any detail, yet it is a treaty the UK signed up to.
OK, but now you talk of a sensible compromise. Do you want to suggest what that may be, or are you stuck at the United Ireland position?
I know it irritates, but I absolutely believe that those who proposed, voted for, and are managing brexit are the ones to solve the problems, why should those who don't like what has happened suggest solutions, especially when they don't exist anyway?
What is a clean brexit?
Carry on pretending it's easy and only about applying the tariffs by all means if it helps but the clock's ticking away...
My sons 26 & 23 have no interest in politics and Brexit and couldn't give a fig one way or the other.
I've asked them both if their friends have similar views and they said yes, none of them care, one way or the other.
Perhaps, this goes some way to explaining the lack of votes in the referendum from the younger generation.
I've no idea what this proves (it doesn't), but thought I'd mention it purely out of interest.
My gut feeling is that the percentage is higher than that.
Look at the vote share of Sinn Fein, I'd expect almost all of their supporters, and a fair percentage of the SDLP to vote for reunification as a matter of course. It's the undecideds and the soft Unionists who may be prepared to consider a change of allegiance, depending on circumstances.
The argument made here is that the DUP have managed to sectarianise Brexit - if true, that will have an effect.
If a border poll is conducted, timing will be key, as will the form of Brexit achieved.
I would not be too sanguine about any result.
opinium.co.uk/did-young-people-bother-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
As far as I am concerned he can freely continue to express his glee in this brief way.
I shall continue to express my pissed offness, but at greater length with more developed arguments.
Fact is that the western half of the six counties might tend to agree with the main thrust of your argument. And a simplistic argument for reunification can be made by anybody on the back of an envelope.
What that fails to recognise is the reasons why neither Sinn Fein nor the DUP want a return to a functioning Stormont. Both want a hard Brexit for entirely different reasons.
So you can turn choose to wash your hands of the Irish question if you will. The reality is that the history and the change process is somewhat more complex.
Then again, like all those pursuing a hard Brexit and glorious isolation, you're not really interested in experts and reality. The irony is that if this were portrayed as policy of the Irish government or the Labour Party then the Brexit brigade would be the first to be whining about the sovereignty of part of the UK!
One can only conclude that they don't give a monkey's about Belfast and the Unionist tradition. Makes one wonder what they are doing in the Conservative and Unionist Party?!
I'd imagine that Australia and New Zealand don't have huge teams of negotiators and thus will probably keep them tied up for the next few years.
Never mind, we can still do our chlorine chicken deal with America.
Negotiations would then have been based on mitigating the negative consequences for both sides and compromises reached based on a defined known starting point instead of the clusterfuck drooled over by Remainers that serves only the interests of those who support the undermining of the UK's negotiating position.
But then, most of those who have talked of a "clean Brexit" really seem to want the hardest possible break with the EU (often allied to a desire for the to become a deregulated unilateral free trade Minfordesque "paradise"), regardless of the consequences.
I have a sneaking suspicion that that is unlikely to work well for a significant proportion of the population.
But I'm probably being deliberately obtuse.
As an aside, I am really not drooling over the clusterfuck that is the UK Government "policy" on Brexit.
Frankly, I'm absolutely terrified at the vista that I feel is opening before me, where the 1997 Blairite anthem that "Things can only get better" will prove just the teensiest bit false.