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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • edited February 2018
    If someone could cite an official government statement where they confirmed leaving the EU would mean leaving the SM and CU and reconcile this with the official government-backed and funded Leave campaign stating the opposite as their official position and using government funding to spread that message then maybe there would be some justification for hard Brexit.

    The Electoral Commission distributed a neutral official leaflet which contained a message from both official campaigns.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/voting-guides

    The official leaflet contained several lies from the Vote Leave campaign and also a link to the part of their website that insisted that we would not be out of the customs union or single market. Unsurprisingly the link has now been taken down by the Vote Leave revisionists.
  • edited February 2018
    stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    What do people reckon that the Britons of 2030 or 2040 would make of the events in the last years that led to where the UK is now? Genuine question. I feel that they could be even angrier with what happened than Brexiters have been with the EU over the years and, depending on how the economy has gone, feel a great sense of resentment. Very difficult to hypothesise, I know, but be interesting to hear people's thoughts about how Brexit is looked back on in ten or twenty years.

    I think it will be similar to the way Germans brought up in post war Germany look back on the events that led to the rise of the Nazi party.
    Dear oh dear. That’s OTT even for you.
    Actually quite normal for him.
    One of the reasons I hardly bother to post on this thread
    If he confirms that he actually believes that, then I see no point in responding to him in future.
    Who do you think you are fooling with your sanctimonious fake outrage at me drawing a parallel between Brexit and the rise of the Nazi party. Listed below are just a few articles from recent months making the exact same point. I could probably post another 20. Are you claiming that my post is the first time you have come across this comparison?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/03/brexit-civil-service-1930s-germany

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/12/ian-mcewan-decision-on-brexit-vote-reminds-me-of-the-third-reich

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/cameron-warns-against-dangerous-brexit-rhetoric/

    http://fedtrust.co.uk/events/past-events-2017/weimar-germany-and-brexit-britain/
  • Fiiish said:

    Obviously it isn't Nazism 2.0 but we are seeing a worrying rise in the following trends that Brexiters either ignore or support because they are all coming from the quarters that are engineering Brexit:

    - the return of far-right politics to the mainstream
    - scapegoating of immigrants/foreigners/non-Christians
    - populist politicians openly lying without rebuke
    - anyone not supporting the populist far-right view being called a traitor, saboteur, or lambasted in the media and being sent death threats or in one case actually murdered
    - increase in far-right terror attacks and plots
    - dangerously unqualified politicians being thrust into the limelight as they harness far-right support
    - societal divisions and a mentality of 'you're either with us or you're the enemy'
    - populists claiming to represent the population when they do not have popular support
    - the undermining of democracy in order to pursue far-right goals
    - facts being believed on the basis of if they fit far-right views as opposed to if they are actually true
    - comparing your political opponents to a cult or a religion
    - playing the victim by calling political opponents bullies in order to justify political subversion
    - democratic institutions being attacked for following the rule of law instead of kowtowing to populism
    - people with different political views to populists being attacked based on their identities
    - trying to engineer social divisions by claiming political opponents are an out of touch elite who are standing in the way of the populists
    - expert opinion and advice being ignored because it does not support the populist view
    - politicians in the government actively covering up evidence that could damage the populist movement
    - the populist views being put above the national interest

    So you don’t think his comment was OTT?

    Will be interested in your response because you know I have appreciated my debates with you.
  • stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    Obviously it isn't Nazism 2.0 but we are seeing a worrying rise in the following trends that Brexiters either ignore or support because they are all coming from the quarters that are engineering Brexit:

    - the return of far-right politics to the mainstream
    - scapegoating of immigrants/foreigners/non-Christians
    - populist politicians openly lying without rebuke
    - anyone not supporting the populist far-right view being called a traitor, saboteur, or lambasted in the media and being sent death threats or in one case actually murdered
    - increase in far-right terror attacks and plots
    - dangerously unqualified politicians being thrust into the limelight as they harness far-right support
    - societal divisions and a mentality of 'you're either with us or you're the enemy'
    - populists claiming to represent the population when they do not have popular support
    - the undermining of democracy in order to pursue far-right goals
    - facts being believed on the basis of if they fit far-right views as opposed to if they are actually true
    - comparing your political opponents to a cult or a religion
    - playing the victim by calling political opponents bullies in order to justify political subversion
    - democratic institutions being attacked for following the rule of law instead of kowtowing to populism
    - people with different political views to populists being attacked based on their identities
    - trying to engineer social divisions by claiming political opponents are an out of touch elite who are standing in the way of the populists
    - expert opinion and advice being ignored because it does not support the populist view
    - politicians in the government actively covering up evidence that could damage the populist movement
    - the populist views being put above the national interest

    So you don’t think his comment was OTT?

    Will be interested in your response because you know I have appreciated my debates with you.
    Will be interested in your response to my question asking if my post was the first time you have come across the the Brexit - Nazi comparison.
  • stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    Obviously it isn't Nazism 2.0 but we are seeing a worrying rise in the following trends that Brexiters either ignore or support because they are all coming from the quarters that are engineering Brexit:

    - the return of far-right politics to the mainstream
    - scapegoating of immigrants/foreigners/non-Christians
    - populist politicians openly lying without rebuke
    - anyone not supporting the populist far-right view being called a traitor, saboteur, or lambasted in the media and being sent death threats or in one case actually murdered
    - increase in far-right terror attacks and plots
    - dangerously unqualified politicians being thrust into the limelight as they harness far-right support
    - societal divisions and a mentality of 'you're either with us or you're the enemy'
    - populists claiming to represent the population when they do not have popular support
    - the undermining of democracy in order to pursue far-right goals
    - facts being believed on the basis of if they fit far-right views as opposed to if they are actually true
    - comparing your political opponents to a cult or a religion
    - playing the victim by calling political opponents bullies in order to justify political subversion
    - democratic institutions being attacked for following the rule of law instead of kowtowing to populism
    - people with different political views to populists being attacked based on their identities
    - trying to engineer social divisions by claiming political opponents are an out of touch elite who are standing in the way of the populists
    - expert opinion and advice being ignored because it does not support the populist view
    - politicians in the government actively covering up evidence that could damage the populist movement
    - the populist views being put above the national interest

    So you don’t think his comment was OTT?

    Will be interested in your response because you know I have appreciated my debates with you.
    Will be interested in your response to my question asking if my post was the first time you have come across the the Brexit - Nazi comparison.
    I will break my promise for one post. Yes it was.

    Bye.
  • stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    Obviously it isn't Nazism 2.0 but we are seeing a worrying rise in the following trends that Brexiters either ignore or support because they are all coming from the quarters that are engineering Brexit:

    - the return of far-right politics to the mainstream
    - scapegoating of immigrants/foreigners/non-Christians
    - populist politicians openly lying without rebuke
    - anyone not supporting the populist far-right view being called a traitor, saboteur, or lambasted in the media and being sent death threats or in one case actually murdered
    - increase in far-right terror attacks and plots
    - dangerously unqualified politicians being thrust into the limelight as they harness far-right support
    - societal divisions and a mentality of 'you're either with us or you're the enemy'
    - populists claiming to represent the population when they do not have popular support
    - the undermining of democracy in order to pursue far-right goals
    - facts being believed on the basis of if they fit far-right views as opposed to if they are actually true
    - comparing your political opponents to a cult or a religion
    - playing the victim by calling political opponents bullies in order to justify political subversion
    - democratic institutions being attacked for following the rule of law instead of kowtowing to populism
    - people with different political views to populists being attacked based on their identities
    - trying to engineer social divisions by claiming political opponents are an out of touch elite who are standing in the way of the populists
    - expert opinion and advice being ignored because it does not support the populist view
    - politicians in the government actively covering up evidence that could damage the populist movement
    - the populist views being put above the national interest

    So you don’t think his comment was OTT?

    Will be interested in your response because you know I have appreciated my debates with you.
    I thought I was clear but will state unequivocally the Nazi comparison is inappropriate. That doesn't mean there are not worrying trends emerging that are being ignored for the sake of political benefit.
  • stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    Obviously it isn't Nazism 2.0 but we are seeing a worrying rise in the following trends that Brexiters either ignore or support because they are all coming from the quarters that are engineering Brexit:

    - the return of far-right politics to the mainstream
    - scapegoating of immigrants/foreigners/non-Christians
    - populist politicians openly lying without rebuke
    - anyone not supporting the populist far-right view being called a traitor, saboteur, or lambasted in the media and being sent death threats or in one case actually murdered
    - increase in far-right terror attacks and plots
    - dangerously unqualified politicians being thrust into the limelight as they harness far-right support
    - societal divisions and a mentality of 'you're either with us or you're the enemy'
    - populists claiming to represent the population when they do not have popular support
    - the undermining of democracy in order to pursue far-right goals
    - facts being believed on the basis of if they fit far-right views as opposed to if they are actually true
    - comparing your political opponents to a cult or a religion
    - playing the victim by calling political opponents bullies in order to justify political subversion
    - democratic institutions being attacked for following the rule of law instead of kowtowing to populism
    - people with different political views to populists being attacked based on their identities
    - trying to engineer social divisions by claiming political opponents are an out of touch elite who are standing in the way of the populists
    - expert opinion and advice being ignored because it does not support the populist view
    - politicians in the government actively covering up evidence that could damage the populist movement
    - the populist views being put above the national interest

    So you don’t think his comment was OTT?

    Will be interested in your response because you know I have appreciated my debates with you.
    Will be interested in your response to my question asking if my post was the first time you have come across the the Brexit - Nazi comparison.
    I will break my promise for one post. Yes it was.

    Bye.
    Yes...I am sure it was!
  • Fiiish said:

    Obviously it isn't Nazism 2.0 but we are seeing a worrying rise in the following trends that Brexiters either ignore or support because they are all coming from the quarters that are engineering Brexit:

    - the return of far-right politics to the mainstream
    - scapegoating of immigrants/foreigners/non-Christians
    - populist politicians openly lying without rebuke
    - anyone not supporting the populist far-right view being called a traitor, saboteur, or lambasted in the media and being sent death threats or in one case actually murdered
    - increase in far-right terror attacks and plots
    - dangerously unqualified politicians being thrust into the limelight as they harness far-right support
    - societal divisions and a mentality of 'you're either with us or you're the enemy'
    - populists claiming to represent the population when they do not have popular support
    - the undermining of democracy in order to pursue far-right goals
    - facts being believed on the basis of if they fit far-right views as opposed to if they are actually true
    - comparing your political opponents to a cult or a religion
    - playing the victim by calling political opponents bullies in order to justify political subversion
    - democratic institutions being attacked for following the rule of law instead of kowtowing to populism
    - people with different political views to populists being attacked based on their identities
    - trying to engineer social divisions by claiming political opponents are an out of touch elite who are standing in the way of the populists
    - expert opinion and advice being ignored because it does not support the populist view
    - politicians in the government actively covering up evidence that could damage the populist movement
    - the populist views being put above the national interest

    Never really thought of it in those terms but set out like that it's difficult to argue that Brexit isn't leading to an increase in these factors. I expect someone will soon though.
  • stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    The problem with the supposition of the above, that the government promised that Brexit means Brexit, is that the government was not an active participant in campaigning. The government can either state unambiguously what will happen in the event of either option winning and then allow no campaigning, or otherwise it allows two campaigns and it enacts whichever one got the result. Instead the government promised one thing, the official Leave campaign another and we are left with a total mess on our hands.

    Two other points:

    1) Vote Leave was the government sanctioned Leave campaign so it is safe to assume that the government endorsed their vision of leaving the EU.

    2) The government pamphlet makes zero mention of what would happen depending on the result. All it says is 'we will implement what you decide'. Well a third voted to Leave, a third voted to Remain and a third did not vote. Good luck reconciling that.

    As the government-produced leaflet endorsed remain, I doubt they endorsed any vision of leaving the EU.
    You must have got a different leaflet to me. The leaflet I got from the government included arguments from both leave and remain. The leave section was full of easily provable lies whilst the remain section contains vague promises of things only getting better and a certain naive optimism that fell well short of outright lies. Neither argument was endorsed as such in the leaflet.

    There may have course have been other leaflets that I didn't receive, as I said, this was the only leaflet I received from the government and was largely useless as it represented lies vs wishful thinking.
    No it didnt - the document is attached.

    https://gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525022/20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf
    And this.

    https://gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf
    Whooped em again Josie. ...whooped em again boy.
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  • edited February 2018
    I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim

    "Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."

    Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"


    OK, @stonemuse, @Southbank @blackpool72 @dippenhall . Any of you...?????

    WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?

    And as for that second half at the Valley...


  • What do people reckon that the Britons of 2030 or 2040 would make of the events in the last years that led to where the UK is now? Genuine question. I feel that they could be even angrier with what happened than Brexiters have been with the EU over the years and, depending on how the economy has gone, feel a great sense of resentment. Very difficult to hypothesise, I know, but be interesting to hear people's thoughts about how Brexit is looked back on in ten or twenty years.

    Good question.
    In my opinion in 2030 the EU will cease to exist and people then will think I know we had it tough for a few years when we left the EU but thank God we did as we are now in a far better position than those that chose to remain and struggled when it collapsed.
    Interesting - why do you think it will cease to exist? Living in Europe I see that it seems to be getting stronger in most of its countries in terms of how people see it, and how it leads to inter-country co-operation. Under what circumstances do you feel it might collapse? Apart from in Poland and Hungary, the anti-EU or far-right parties seem to have very little following and the appetite in most European countries seems to be for centrist progressive politics.

    I fear that the Britons in twenty to thirty years might feel that the UK moved away from this prevailing mood to pursue something nostalgic that was not in tune with the rest of the world (apart from Trump), with serious consequences for them and would judge us accordingly. I've got no crystal ball of course, but it's a sad thought.
    Err, have you forgotten the French election last year where a majority voted for anti-EU parties? The traditional pro EU parties are in rapid decline across Europe ( look at the SPD in Germany or the forthcoming Italian elections where the EU is so desperate it is hoping Berlusconi will make a comeback). It is only the absence of a coherent alternative which enables the EU to carry on, not popular support.
  • stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    What do people reckon that the Britons of 2030 or 2040 would make of the events in the last years that led to where the UK is now? Genuine question. I feel that they could be even angrier with what happened than Brexiters have been with the EU over the years and, depending on how the economy has gone, feel a great sense of resentment. Very difficult to hypothesise, I know, but be interesting to hear people's thoughts about how Brexit is looked back on in ten or twenty years.

    I think it will be similar to the way Germans brought up in post war Germany look back on the events that led to the rise of the Nazi party.
    Dear oh dear. That’s OTT even for you.
    Actually quite normal for him.
    One of the reasons I hardly bother to post on this thread
    If he confirms that he actually believes that, then I see no point in responding to him in future.
    Who do you think you are fooling with your sanctimonious fake outrage at me drawing a parallel between Brexit and the rise of the Nazi party. Listed below are just a few articles from recent months making the exact same point. I could probably post another 20. Are you claiming that my post is the first time you have come across this comparison?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/03/brexit-civil-service-1930s-germany

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/12/ian-mcewan-decision-on-brexit-vote-reminds-me-of-the-third-reich

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/cameron-warns-against-dangerous-brexit-rhetoric/

    http://fedtrust.co.uk/events/past-events-2017/weimar-germany-and-brexit-britain/
    It is disgraceful, simply because it demeans the Holocaust to compare our present with that past.
  • Brexit isn't necessarily a cause for all of those but the polarisation of the voters on Brexit has allowed these factors to worsen as a large proportion of the voters seem wilfully blind to the problems these factors present because they are being propagated by the most vocal champions of Brexit. We are seeing a rise in people sympathetic to far-right ideals and supporters, people who ten years ago would have been abhorred by the views of the BNP, UKIP, EDL, Britain First but now stand side by side with them because they are all pro-Brexit, whereas mainstream politicians who oppose Brexit are now the enemy. The politics of the far-right has been kept well on the periphery of British politics for the last few decades. Even Enoch Powell was roundly lambasted for his Rivers of Blood speech. But now there is an issue that unites the far-right and moderate voters and it is through the conduit of Brexit that has allowed the far-right to creep back into mainstream politics. Ten years ago you would not have had ordinary working people calling up LBC to call judges traitors, or that foreign billionaires should keep their dirty money out of the UK, or that only the part of the population who agree with them should have the right to democratic representation, or that people who are experts in their fields who warn of the dangers of Brexit should not be listened to, but now they do because far-right outlets, pro-Brexit outlets spur them on and tell them these are logical opinions to hold.
  • I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim

    "Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."


    OK, @stonemuse, @Southbank @blackpool72 @dippenhall . Any of you...?????

    WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?

    And as for that second half at the Valley...


    Guven that somebody on this thread just called Leavers Nazis I think you need to take this kind of ridiculous name calling up with him.
  • stonemuse said:

    I can't believe we are going back around the circular "...but we all knew what Leave meant" argument. @NornIrishAddick nails it above but even more simply; if we all knew exactly what Leave was apparently, why has the cabinet only started discussing amongst itself what sort of future relationship with the EU it wants in the last few weeks? Perhaps someone should have explained it them before now in that case?

    This false narrative and accompanying denial of reality in that Brexiteers offered only one version of Leave is total and utter bollocks to be crude. Leavers should at least have the decency to own their position and deal with the consequences not try to tell Remainers (and other Leavers btw!) they're too stupid to remember or understand what was being said less than 2 years ago.

    Rant over. Carry on.

    ;-)

    I’ve always owned my position and stated it very clearly on here from day one.
    You may have done but it is clear that those behind Brexit are now pursuing a different agenda to that set out previously.

    Even on here only recently @Southbank claimed that initially he was in favour of a "soft" Brexit...but has moved to the hardest form of leaving since. We'll in that case he's clearly not going to get what he actually voted for is he? Or he is, and he's not going get what he now wants! So, utterly inconsistent with the falsehood being set out in other words.

    What about the others on here pre-referendum who were promoting EFTA, Norway style, etc. membership as their reason to leave? They can't ALL be getting their version of Brexit can they? What about the dozy moron on another site I read recently who claimed she voted Leave as a "protest vote" in the expectation that Cameron would still win but go back to the EU for more concessions? She didn't even want to leave for heaven's sake yet the narrative gaining traction with Leavers now is that everyone knew exactly what would happen as a result i.e. the hardest, most disruptive Brexit possible when they entered the polling station. It's bullshit.

    When even the Ministers responsible for delivering it clearly can't agree amongst themselves wtf it meant it is demonstrably untrue to pursue the line we all did. I'd rather focus any discussion on here on the way forward personally but this particular line of nonsense needs nipping in the bud before it becomes accepted as the truth.
    I was never in favour of a 'soft' Brexit, it does not exist. I was not a passionate Leave campaigner, but I always believed the political EU was a doomed, undemocratic project and we should get out when we could-hence my vote in the regendum.
  • I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim

    "Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."


    OK, @stonemuse, @Southbank @blackpool72 @dippenhall . Any of you...?????

    WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?

    And as for that second half at the Valley...


    Who won the war? Well Winston Churchill was the one leading us and he supported the idea of a European Union, with all European countries (and the UK is a European country) aspiring to join it.
  • edited February 2018
    I'm not sure how the EU, a system with a more democratic system of electing representatives than the UK and one that does not allow people to legislate based on their wealth, title or bloodline, as well as having those who appointing those to positions being accountable to their respective electorates, be described as undemocratic compared to our shoddy system. If we couldn't vote for MEPs, the Commissioners were self-appointed, and each member did not have a democratically elected government who could shape, oppose, vary or veto EU legislation then maybe it could be called undemocratic. But until then, there is zero logical reason to call the EU undemocratic unless you simply do not understand how the EU works and you just repeat tabloid lies that the EU is undemocratic because they fit your backwards world view.
  • edited February 2018
    Southbank said:

    stonemuse said:

    I can't believe we are going back around the circular "...but we all knew what Leave meant" argument. @NornIrishAddick nails it above but even more simply; if we all knew exactly what Leave was apparently, why has the cabinet only started discussing amongst itself what sort of future relationship with the EU it wants in the last few weeks? Perhaps someone should have explained it them before now in that case?

    This false narrative and accompanying denial of reality in that Brexiteers offered only one version of Leave is total and utter bollocks to be crude. Leavers should at least have the decency to own their position and deal with the consequences not try to tell Remainers (and other Leavers btw!) they're too stupid to remember or understand what was being said less than 2 years ago.

    Rant over. Carry on.

    ;-)

    I’ve always owned my position and stated it very clearly on here from day one.
    You may have done but it is clear that those behind Brexit are now pursuing a different agenda to that set out previously.

    Even on here only recently @Southbank claimed that initially he was in favour of a "soft" Brexit...but has moved to the hardest form of leaving since. We'll in that case he's clearly not going to get what he actually voted for is he? Or he is, and he's not going get what he now wants! So, utterly inconsistent with the falsehood being set out in other words.

    What about the others on here pre-referendum who were promoting EFTA, Norway style, etc. membership as their reason to leave? They can't ALL be getting their version of Brexit can they? What about the dozy moron on another site I read recently who claimed she voted Leave as a "protest vote" in the expectation that Cameron would still win but go back to the EU for more concessions? She didn't even want to leave for heaven's sake yet the narrative gaining traction with Leavers now is that everyone knew exactly what would happen as a result i.e. the hardest, most disruptive Brexit possible when they entered the polling station. It's bullshit.

    When even the Ministers responsible for delivering it clearly can't agree amongst themselves wtf it meant it is demonstrably untrue to pursue the line we all did. I'd rather focus any discussion on here on the way forward personally but this particular line of nonsense needs nipping in the bud before it becomes accepted as the truth.
    I was never in favour of a 'soft' Brexit, it does not exist. I was not a passionate Leave campaigner, but I always believed the political EU was a doomed, undemocratic project and we should get out when we could-hence my vote in the regendum.
    Why then did you say a few pages back, "... I was a soft Leaver until the referendum..." and go on to explain that your views have changed since then?
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  • edited February 2018
    Southbank said:

    I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim

    "Greedy bastards. Rich people. (edit:" It' all money to these people") I mean, who won the war? We did."


    OK, @stonemuse, @Southbank @blackpool72 @dippenhall . Any of you...?????

    WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?

    And as for that second half at the Valley...


    Guven that somebody on this thread just called Leavers Nazis I think you need to take this kind of ridiculous name calling up with him.
    Bottler.

    He was quoted because he was found to be representative of the mood in the pub. In South East London. I might even be able to name the pub if I can find the clip. (edit: The Lord Nelson)

    On the other hand I have missed the post where Leavers were called Nazis. I think you saw the word Nazi and read what you wanted to read. Of course it is absurd. You won the war against the Nazis and I didn't.

    Foreign commentators often say that Britain seems to be having a collective nervous breakdown. Reading and hearing this absolute shite, I could not agree more.



  • Southbank said:

    stonemuse said:

    I can't believe we are going back around the circular "...but we all knew what Leave meant" argument. @NornIrishAddick nails it above but even more simply; if we all knew exactly what Leave was apparently, why has the cabinet only started discussing amongst itself what sort of future relationship with the EU it wants in the last few weeks? Perhaps someone should have explained it them before now in that case?

    This false narrative and accompanying denial of reality in that Brexiteers offered only one version of Leave is total and utter bollocks to be crude. Leavers should at least have the decency to own their position and deal with the consequences not try to tell Remainers (and other Leavers btw!) they're too stupid to remember or understand what was being said less than 2 years ago.

    Rant over. Carry on.

    ;-)

    I’ve always owned my position and stated it very clearly on here from day one.
    You may have done but it is clear that those behind Brexit are now pursuing a different agenda to that set out previously.

    Even on here only recently @Southbank claimed that initially he was in favour of a "soft" Brexit...but has moved to the hardest form of leaving since. We'll in that case he's clearly not going to get what he actually voted for is he? Or he is, and he's not going get what he now wants! So, utterly inconsistent with the falsehood being set out in other words.

    What about the others on here pre-referendum who were promoting EFTA, Norway style, etc. membership as their reason to leave? They can't ALL be getting their version of Brexit can they? What about the dozy moron on another site I read recently who claimed she voted Leave as a "protest vote" in the expectation that Cameron would still win but go back to the EU for more concessions? She didn't even want to leave for heaven's sake yet the narrative gaining traction with Leavers now is that everyone knew exactly what would happen as a result i.e. the hardest, most disruptive Brexit possible when they entered the polling station. It's bullshit.

    When even the Ministers responsible for delivering it clearly can't agree amongst themselves wtf it meant it is demonstrably untrue to pursue the line we all did. I'd rather focus any discussion on here on the way forward personally but this particular line of nonsense needs nipping in the bud before it becomes accepted as the truth.
    I was never in favour of a 'soft' Brexit, it does not exist. I was not a passionate Leave campaigner, but I always believed the political EU was a doomed, undemocratic project and we should get out when we could-hence my vote in the regendum.
    When it dawned on you that the EU is more democratic than the UK, did it effect your thinking?
  • People, on both sides, need to drop the WW2/Nazi stuff - it's mental.
  • Southbank said:

    stonemuse said:

    I can't believe we are going back around the circular "...but we all knew what Leave meant" argument. @NornIrishAddick nails it above but even more simply; if we all knew exactly what Leave was apparently, why has the cabinet only started discussing amongst itself what sort of future relationship with the EU it wants in the last few weeks? Perhaps someone should have explained it them before now in that case?

    This false narrative and accompanying denial of reality in that Brexiteers offered only one version of Leave is total and utter bollocks to be crude. Leavers should at least have the decency to own their position and deal with the consequences not try to tell Remainers (and other Leavers btw!) they're too stupid to remember or understand what was being said less than 2 years ago.

    Rant over. Carry on.

    ;-)

    I’ve always owned my position and stated it very clearly on here from day one.
    You may have done but it is clear that those behind Brexit are now pursuing a different agenda to that set out previously.

    Even on here only recently @Southbank claimed that initially he was in favour of a "soft" Brexit...but has moved to the hardest form of leaving since. We'll in that case he's clearly not going to get what he actually voted for is he? Or he is, and he's not going get what he now wants! So, utterly inconsistent with the falsehood being set out in other words.

    What about the others on here pre-referendum who were promoting EFTA, Norway style, etc. membership as their reason to leave? They can't ALL be getting their version of Brexit can they? What about the dozy moron on another site I read recently who claimed she voted Leave as a "protest vote" in the expectation that Cameron would still win but go back to the EU for more concessions? She didn't even want to leave for heaven's sake yet the narrative gaining traction with Leavers now is that everyone knew exactly what would happen as a result i.e. the hardest, most disruptive Brexit possible when they entered the polling station. It's bullshit.

    When even the Ministers responsible for delivering it clearly can't agree amongst themselves wtf it meant it is demonstrably untrue to pursue the line we all did. I'd rather focus any discussion on here on the way forward personally but this particular line of nonsense needs nipping in the bud before it becomes accepted as the truth.
    I was never in favour of a 'soft' Brexit, it does not exist. I was not a passionate Leave campaigner, but I always believed the political EU was a doomed, undemocratic project and we should get out when we could-hence my vote in the regendum.
    Why then did you say a few pages back, "... I was a soft Leaver until the referendum..." and go on to explain that your views have changed since then?
    Soft in the sense of it not being my reason to leave. Obviously soft now means something else.
  • Southbank said:

    Southbank said:

    stonemuse said:

    I can't believe we are going back around the circular "...but we all knew what Leave meant" argument. @NornIrishAddick nails it above but even more simply; if we all knew exactly what Leave was apparently, why has the cabinet only started discussing amongst itself what sort of future relationship with the EU it wants in the last few weeks? Perhaps someone should have explained it them before now in that case?

    This false narrative and accompanying denial of reality in that Brexiteers offered only one version of Leave is total and utter bollocks to be crude. Leavers should at least have the decency to own their position and deal with the consequences not try to tell Remainers (and other Leavers btw!) they're too stupid to remember or understand what was being said less than 2 years ago.

    Rant over. Carry on.

    ;-)

    I’ve always owned my position and stated it very clearly on here from day one.
    You may have done but it is clear that those behind Brexit are now pursuing a different agenda to that set out previously.

    Even on here only recently @Southbank claimed that initially he was in favour of a "soft" Brexit...but has moved to the hardest form of leaving since. We'll in that case he's clearly not going to get what he actually voted for is he? Or he is, and he's not going get what he now wants! So, utterly inconsistent with the falsehood being set out in other words.

    What about the others on here pre-referendum who were promoting EFTA, Norway style, etc. membership as their reason to leave? They can't ALL be getting their version of Brexit can they? What about the dozy moron on another site I read recently who claimed she voted Leave as a "protest vote" in the expectation that Cameron would still win but go back to the EU for more concessions? She didn't even want to leave for heaven's sake yet the narrative gaining traction with Leavers now is that everyone knew exactly what would happen as a result i.e. the hardest, most disruptive Brexit possible when they entered the polling station. It's bullshit.

    When even the Ministers responsible for delivering it clearly can't agree amongst themselves wtf it meant it is demonstrably untrue to pursue the line we all did. I'd rather focus any discussion on here on the way forward personally but this particular line of nonsense needs nipping in the bud before it becomes accepted as the truth.
    I was never in favour of a 'soft' Brexit, it does not exist. I was not a passionate Leave campaigner, but I always believed the political EU was a doomed, undemocratic project and we should get out when we could-hence my vote in the regendum.
    Why then did you say a few pages back, "... I was a soft Leaver until the referendum..." and go on to explain that your views have changed since then?
    Soft in the sense of it not being my reason to leave. Obviously soft now means something else.
    Southbank said:

    Southbank said:

    stonemuse said:

    I can't believe we are going back around the circular "...but we all knew what Leave meant" argument. @NornIrishAddick nails it above but even more simply; if we all knew exactly what Leave was apparently, why has the cabinet only started discussing amongst itself what sort of future relationship with the EU it wants in the last few weeks? Perhaps someone should have explained it them before now in that case?

    This false narrative and accompanying denial of reality in that Brexiteers offered only one version of Leave is total and utter bollocks to be crude. Leavers should at least have the decency to own their position and deal with the consequences not try to tell Remainers (and other Leavers btw!) they're too stupid to remember or understand what was being said less than 2 years ago.

    Rant over. Carry on.

    ;-)

    I’ve always owned my position and stated it very clearly on here from day one.
    You may have done but it is clear that those behind Brexit are now pursuing a different agenda to that set out previously.

    Even on here only recently @Southbank claimed that initially he was in favour of a "soft" Brexit...but has moved to the hardest form of leaving since. We'll in that case he's clearly not going to get what he actually voted for is he? Or he is, and he's not going get what he now wants! So, utterly inconsistent with the falsehood being set out in other words.

    What about the others on here pre-referendum who were promoting EFTA, Norway style, etc. membership as their reason to leave? They can't ALL be getting their version of Brexit can they? What about the dozy moron on another site I read recently who claimed she voted Leave as a "protest vote" in the expectation that Cameron would still win but go back to the EU for more concessions? She didn't even want to leave for heaven's sake yet the narrative gaining traction with Leavers now is that everyone knew exactly what would happen as a result i.e. the hardest, most disruptive Brexit possible when they entered the polling station. It's bullshit.

    When even the Ministers responsible for delivering it clearly can't agree amongst themselves wtf it meant it is demonstrably untrue to pursue the line we all did. I'd rather focus any discussion on here on the way forward personally but this particular line of nonsense needs nipping in the bud before it becomes accepted as the truth.
    I was never in favour of a 'soft' Brexit, it does not exist. I was not a passionate Leave campaigner, but I always believed the political EU was a doomed, undemocratic project and we should get out when we could-hence my vote in the regendum.
    Why then did you say a few pages back, "... I was a soft Leaver until the referendum..." and go on to explain that your views have changed since then?
    Soft in the sense of it not being my reason to leave. Obviously soft now means something else.
    Live not leave
  • Southbank said:

    Southbank said:

    stonemuse said:

    I can't believe we are going back around the circular "...but we all knew what Leave meant" argument. @NornIrishAddick nails it above but even more simply; if we all knew exactly what Leave was apparently, why has the cabinet only started discussing amongst itself what sort of future relationship with the EU it wants in the last few weeks? Perhaps someone should have explained it them before now in that case?

    This false narrative and accompanying denial of reality in that Brexiteers offered only one version of Leave is total and utter bollocks to be crude. Leavers should at least have the decency to own their position and deal with the consequences not try to tell Remainers (and other Leavers btw!) they're too stupid to remember or understand what was being said less than 2 years ago.

    Rant over. Carry on.

    ;-)

    I’ve always owned my position and stated it very clearly on here from day one.
    You may have done but it is clear that those behind Brexit are now pursuing a different agenda to that set out previously.

    Even on here only recently @Southbank claimed that initially he was in favour of a "soft" Brexit...but has moved to the hardest form of leaving since. We'll in that case he's clearly not going to get what he actually voted for is he? Or he is, and he's not going get what he now wants! So, utterly inconsistent with the falsehood being set out in other words.

    What about the others on here pre-referendum who were promoting EFTA, Norway style, etc. membership as their reason to leave? They can't ALL be getting their version of Brexit can they? What about the dozy moron on another site I read recently who claimed she voted Leave as a "protest vote" in the expectation that Cameron would still win but go back to the EU for more concessions? She didn't even want to leave for heaven's sake yet the narrative gaining traction with Leavers now is that everyone knew exactly what would happen as a result i.e. the hardest, most disruptive Brexit possible when they entered the polling station. It's bullshit.

    When even the Ministers responsible for delivering it clearly can't agree amongst themselves wtf it meant it is demonstrably untrue to pursue the line we all did. I'd rather focus any discussion on here on the way forward personally but this particular line of nonsense needs nipping in the bud before it becomes accepted as the truth.
    I was never in favour of a 'soft' Brexit, it does not exist. I was not a passionate Leave campaigner, but I always believed the political EU was a doomed, undemocratic project and we should get out when we could-hence my vote in the regendum.
    Why then did you say a few pages back, "... I was a soft Leaver until the referendum..." and go on to explain that your views have changed since then?
    Soft in the sense of it not being my reason to leave. Obviously soft now means something else.
    Yeah of course you meant that. Jeez you're reaching now...
  • Southbank said:

    I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim

    "Greedy bastards. Rich people. (edit:" It' all money to these people") I mean, who won the war? We did."


    OK, @stonemuse, @Southbank @blackpool72 @dippenhall . Any of you...?????

    WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?

    And as for that second half at the Valley...


    Guven that somebody on this thread just called Leavers Nazis I think you need to take this kind of ridiculous name calling up with him.
    Bottler.

    He was quoted because he was found to be representative of the mood in the pub. In South East London. I might even be able to name the pub if I can find the clip. (edit: The Lord Nelson)

    On the other hand I have missed the post where Leavers were called Nazis. I think you saw the word Nazi and read what you wanted to read. Of course it is absurd. You won the war against the Nazis and I didn't.

    Foreign commentators often say that Britain seems to be having a collective nervous breakdown. Reading and hearing this absolute shite, I could not agree more.



    Look at Red in se8s posts.

    If you like we could both take responsibility for the idiot wings of Remain and Leave, or we could both agree that these people are not worth talking about and stick to the issues instead.
  • Southbank said:

    Southbank said:

    I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim

    "Greedy bastards. Rich people. (edit:" It' all money to these people") I mean, who won the war? We did."


    OK, @stonemuse, @Southbank @blackpool72 @dippenhall . Any of you...?????

    WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?

    And as for that second half at the Valley...


    Guven that somebody on this thread just called Leavers Nazis I think you need to take this kind of ridiculous name calling up with him.
    Bottler.

    He was quoted because he was found to be representative of the mood in the pub. In South East London. I might even be able to name the pub if I can find the clip. (edit: The Lord Nelson)

    On the other hand I have missed the post where Leavers were called Nazis. I think you saw the word Nazi and read what you wanted to read. Of course it is absurd. You won the war against the Nazis and I didn't.

    Foreign commentators often say that Britain seems to be having a collective nervous breakdown. Reading and hearing this absolute shite, I could not agree more.



    Look at Red in se8s posts.

    If you like we could both take responsibility for the idiot wings of Remain and Leave, or we could both agree that these people are not worth talking about and stick to the issues instead.
    Nobody on the leave side wants to stick to the issue of the Irish border. It is an issue to either dismiss with ridicule, or to attack me for raising it rather than suggest a practical solution.




  • Southbank said:

    Southbank said:

    I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim

    "Greedy bastards. Rich people. (edit:" It' all money to these people") I mean, who won the war? We did."


    OK, @stonemuse, @Southbank @blackpool72 @dippenhall . Any of you...?????

    WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?

    And as for that second half at the Valley...


    Guven that somebody on this thread just called Leavers Nazis I think you need to take this kind of ridiculous name calling up with him.
    Bottler.

    He was quoted because he was found to be representative of the mood in the pub. In South East London. I might even be able to name the pub if I can find the clip. (edit: The Lord Nelson)

    On the other hand I have missed the post where Leavers were called Nazis. I think you saw the word Nazi and read what you wanted to read. Of course it is absurd. You won the war against the Nazis and I didn't.

    Foreign commentators often say that Britain seems to be having a collective nervous breakdown. Reading and hearing this absolute shite, I could not agree more.



    Look at Red in se8s posts.

    If you like we could both take responsibility for the idiot wings of Remain and Leave, or we could both agree that these people are not worth talking about and stick to the issues instead.
    It's a sensible suggestion, of course. Not sure I am capable of responding in kind now. Still seething. Watching that bloody game on the stream hasn't helped.

    I bid you all fellow Charlton tribe members a good night.

This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!