I had a spell over a decade ago where I got caught doing everything you shouldn't get caught for. I got to the stage where getting caught again would be bye bye licence.
I can put them all down to stupidity because I was a bit of a boy racer and liked going fast. You live and learn.
So whilst I agree speeding is against the law and I paid the price I really wish more was done to deal with dangerous drivers, drivers using mobile phone handsets, middle lane hoggers that sort of thing.
Just over two months ago my son lost two friends and eight others were injured because someone couldn't drive within the speed limits. That episode has certainly had a dramatic effect on my sons life and many other people's lives. Speed limits are there for a reason. Around 1990, pre cameras,I was pulled over by the police. Back then they seemed to have a little more leeway in what was and wasn't given out. I confessed and they gave me the roadside lecture, basically they told me to get up earlier and be more aware of the world around me. The message has stuck with me and I have never had a point on my licence.
I had a spell over a decade ago where I got caught doing everything you shouldn't get caught for. I got to the stage where getting caught again would be bye bye licence.
I can put them all down to stupidity because I was a bit of a boy racer and liked going fast. You live and learn.
So whilst I agree speeding is against the law and I paid the price I really wish more was done to deal with dangerous drivers, drivers using mobile phone handsets, middle lane hoggers that sort of thing.
If a driver is inclined to speed when there is a clear road ahead that is one (wrong) thing. It is an additional layer if they rush right up behind you and expect you to speed too. I will let them go by except there is no way of getting out of their way, what are they thinking will happen, that you can disappear in a puff of smoke? 1000 worse than middle lane hoggers are tailgaters.
Saw a hat trick on Saturday. Bloke pulling out a disabled bay with mobile phone in one hand to his ear, and no seat belt on. Kids in the back and missus in the front didn't have belts on either.
My sat nav goes orange a few mph above the speed limit and then red - I assume the ornage is within the non punishment limit which is reasonable I think as car speedos are not 100% accurate - but 27 in a 20 zone is a massive difference - the lower the speed, the lower the proportional leeway.
Not trying to be righteous but merely pointing out that 27mph is about 135% of the speed limit so no way to escape a penalty. It is the equivalent of doing over 94mph instead of 70. I got done doing 92mph on a motorway quite a few years ago and got a harsh talking to from the police, but thankfully only 3 points and not court! It did make me much more speed aware though to be fair.
Not quite sure how that equates to 135%?
7s into 21 go 3 thimes which is 33.33333% - so 7s into 20 is about 35%. I said 135% of the speed limit, not 135% times the limit, so think my maths are right.
Just over two months ago my son lost two friends and eight others were injured because someone couldn't drive within the speed limits. That episode has certainly had a dramatic effect on my sons life and many other people's lives. Speed limits are there for a reason. Around 1990, pre cameras,I was pulled over by the police. Back then they seemed to have a little more leeway in what was and wasn't given out. I confessed and they gave me the roadside lecture, basically they told me to get up earlier and be more aware of the world around me. The message has stuck with me and I have never had a point on my licence.
That's awful, obviously
I hope your boy manages to get his head round what happened. Rest in peace to his friends
Saw a hat trick on Saturday. Bloke pulling out a disabled bay with mobile phone in one hand to his ear, and no seat belt on. Kids in the back and missus in the front didn't have belts on either.
It's arseholes like that that really get to me. Putting (presumably) family and especially kids in danger. Seen loads of people (usually young women in my experience) with kids in car looking up and down, very obvious they are texting/on phone. Absolute morons.
Just over two months ago my son lost two friends and eight others were injured because someone couldn't drive within the speed limits. That episode has certainly had a dramatic effect on my sons life and many other people's lives. Speed limits are there for a reason. Around 1990, pre cameras,I was pulled over by the police. Back then they seemed to have a little more leeway in what was and wasn't given out. I confessed and they gave me the roadside lecture, basically they told me to get up earlier and be more aware of the world around me. The message has stuck with me and I have never had a point on my licence.
I got the same lecture and it stuck with me too. I do have sympathy as there are some places where the speed limit seems innapropriate and some camera placings which are confusing and at the bottom of a hill etc... but humps are not good for our cars so speed cameras have an important role to play - as long as they are used correctly and fairly.
My work van is fitted with a device that tells my boss at the end of every month how many times I've exceded the speed limit , how many occasions of harsh breaking and how many occasions of harsh revs. It also has a light and noise which warns me when I'm doing this.
This means when I'm driving through Lewisham now on the 20mph route I'm constantly winding people up . I even got a warning for doing 30 as I came out of clacket lane services as it's officially 10mph , try doing 10 there , it ain't possible.
Knowing what the speed limit is can be problematic. It's even worse when a speed limit gets reduced on a road you know well but use infrequently. There are some areas where the limit chops and changes with far too much frequency. It might be my old age but driving in a strange area can be really difficult with too much signage to absorb - flitting between 20 and 30, bus lanes which operate at different times of the day etc. I also find pedestrians are more reckless these days either because they feel as they need to take less care when the speed limit is 20 or they feel safer in those semi-pedestrianised town centre areas. Since I had to attend a speed awareness course for doing 78 on an empty motorway, I genuinely try to keep within the speed limit at all times but I do wonder whether my focus on keeping to the speed limit has reduced my driving skills.
Knowing what the speed limit is can be problematic. It's even worse when a speed limit gets reduced on a road you know well but use infrequently. There are some areas where the limit chops and changes with far too much frequency. It might be my old age but driving in a strange area can be really difficult with too much signage to absorb - flitting between 20 and 30, bus lanes which operate at different times of the day etc. I also find pedestrians are more reckless these days either because they feel as they need to take less care when the speed limit is 20 or they feel safer in those semi-pedestrianised town centre areas. Since I had to attend a speed awareness course for doing 78 on an empty motorway, I genuinely try to keep within the speed limit at all times but I do wonder whether my focus on keeping to the speed limit has reduced my driving skills.
I think it can do when it chops and changes a lot - I think where this is the case, there should be more sinage with the speed limit on it.
But if you don't speed no money is collected by the cameras. I'd put them everywhere.
On local roads, a camera cannot physically stop a driver from speeding if the driver isn't aware the camera is there or has forgotten, as has been demonstrated by the op and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of other motorist who fall fowl of these cameras each year. So, an accident can always happen despite a camera being there. Be honest, how many times are you driving slightly over the limit and break because you know there is a fixed camera coming up?
IMO, only the likes of speed humps and give way islands can physically stop a driver from speeding.
If the motorway police want to clamp down on speeding drivers on the bigger roads, that a different story, although this doesn't physically stop people speeding either.
I'm like an old man driver these days and rarely get anywhere near the limits over here
hidden cameras, proper fucking stealth SAS mother fuckers, can't catch people speeding if drivers stick to the speed limit.
Very very simple.
Yes, very simple but unfortunately less than effective in the matter of road safety. What I tried to point out by quoting the stats above, was that speeding is not, by any stretch, the major cause of accidents. Unfortunately, "sticking to the speed limit" will not, of itself, help with decreasing road accidents. Indeed it is a worrying trend that after years and years of decline in the numbers of KSIs, the figures are ticking back up again.
I'm trying not to be all self-righteous about this but some of the stuff put out by road safety charities like BRAKE is worryingly inaccurate. But they never get challenged when they are wheeled out by the media to give a quote on an accident, yet they have no especial expertise. Here's an extract from their web site on one of their campaigns: "Pace for People is a campaign to reduce and enforce the speed limit in our towns, in order to reduce casualties, reduce fear of cycling and walking, reduce pollution and improve health through active travel. It's something that government can do, now, to save lives and the climate."
Well, I'm sorry but it is likely they will be sorely disappointed as I have to say that further speed limit reductions is very unlikely to have the effect they hope for. Either in casualty or pollution reduction. (Things like traffic calming measures have a terrible impact on pollution.)
As a driver, I can only report on my personal experiences and behaviour. I find pootling through 20mph zones in urban areas and, indeed the 40mph motorway roadwork zones at the posted speed limit to have a terrible, negative, mind-numbing impact upon my levels of concentration. It's boring and my mind switches off from my usual state of alertness. I focus so much of my efforts on my speedometer to make sure that I don't get done by the average speed cameras that my mind wanders away from observing other more important things, like whether a lorry is wandering out of lane, whether traffic ahead is slowing, whether there are pedestrians or road workers in the vicinity, etc, etc.
In my opinion the focus on 20mph limits in often inappropriate circumstances and of using cameras - and cameras almost alone - in highway enforcement is a very bad idea indeed. Cameras will catch speeders, sure. They will not catch dangerous driving, careless driving, middle-lane hoggers, people using mobile phones, pick-ups with dangerous loads, people with badly maintained vehicles, busted lights or bald tyres, etc, etc.
What we need, are more black rats, more driver training with a focus on defensive driving techniques, much more driver training for fleet drivers (firms should be required to provide such training for their operatives), AND much more training for school children, particularly with regard to the dangers of concentrating on their mobile phones and nothing else.
Suffolk provides us with a good example of speed limit stupidity. They placed a blanket 30mph limit in all their tiny little villages. Despite the fact that you'd never see a pedestrian in these areas in a million years. And despite the fact that some of these 30mph limits apply to major trunk roads. So, guess what happened? Here's the headline Suffolk’s 2015 road death toll was worst for six years. It's probably true to say that idiot drivers are still to blame but what happens is most people slow to 30 but the locals, in particular, who know the roads and that the limits are pointless and irrational, get irritated and impatient. They then speed and overtake dangerously. Whereas, what previously happened was that everyone trundled along in a queue quite happily at 40 or 50mph.
We need grown up and joined up road safety measures and we are a long, long way away from that and probably it's getting worse not better.
Hard lines Sillav. Lot of righteous on this thread.
20mph zones are just not what we are used to and it's hard to drive so slow sometimes if your real concentration is actually on your driving and you don't expect a zone to be so low (except by schools etc).
I got done doing 57 when I hadn't realised a 60 zone on a motorway had dropped down to 50.
As a result of that I'm probably a worse driver now as I find when the limits are chopping and changing all over the place i am driving less carefully as I'm forever looking for signs with speed limits, my dashboard, cameras etc.
There is a road near slough where the speed limit is 50 then it drops suddenly to 30, where the first 30 sign is there is a camera right behind it, loads of people having to brake quickly is not safe and sure enough to my right a car took out another cars tail light
I had a motorcycle for 14 years, and survived. I think it made me a better driver generally because a dent in a car is a broken bone for a motorcyclist. A huge number of motorcyclists are reckless and speed, and the scooter and pizza folk are dreadful accidents waiting to happen. Not much skin will be left on those bare hands and knees from a tumble even at 15mph. What I learned was to expect the worse case scenario in every situation, including pedestrians randomly veering off the pavement into the road, and certainly car drivers pulling out in front of you. There is something about driving generally that brings out the worst in us, me included. However rubbish pedestrians are kind of exempt because people came before vehicles, and why should non driving pedestrians (children especially) have to show deference and understanding to drivers? It should be the other way around.
Hard lines Sillav. Lot of righteous on this thread.
20mph zones are just not what we are used to and it's hard to drive so slow sometimes if your real concentration is actually on your driving and you don't expect a zone to be so low (except by schools etc).
I got done doing 57 when I hadn't realised a 60 zone on a motorway had dropped down to 50.
As a result of that I'm probably a worse driver now as I find when the limits are chopping and changing all over the place i am driving less carefully as I'm forever looking for signs with speed limits, my dashboard, cameras etc.
There is a road near slough where the speed limit is 50 then it drops suddenly to 30, where the first 30 sign is there is a camera right behind it, loads of people having to brake quickly is not safe and sure enough to my right a car took out another cars tail light
Stopping distances used to be a feature of the driving test.
Its the average speed cameras that do my head in. I must be the only person that slows down, sticks on the cruise control and sits there at the right speed while every other fcuker comes hurtling past. When we went up to Liverpool about 3-4 months ago, there was a section of the M6 with the cameras which felt like it went on forever. Perhaps I'm not understanding how these cameras work. I assume they use a basic distance divided by time calculation between each and every set of cameras to see if you're breaking the limit? Just dont undertstand how so many people come flying past me as they must all be getting tickets?!?!?
Yes, I have often wondered why some people don't seem bothered about keeping to the average speed with these - only the odd vehicle, but what do they know that I don't?
Hard lines Sillav. Lot of righteous on this thread.
20mph zones are just not what we are used to and it's hard to drive so slow sometimes if your real concentration is actually on your driving and you don't expect a zone to be so low (except by schools etc).
I got done doing 57 when I hadn't realised a 60 zone on a motorway had dropped down to 50.
As a result of that I'm probably a worse driver now as I find when the limits are chopping and changing all over the place i am driving less carefully as I'm forever looking for signs with speed limits, my dashboard, cameras etc.
There is a road near slough where the speed limit is 50 then it drops suddenly to 30, where the first 30 sign is there is a camera right behind it, loads of people having to brake quickly is not safe and sure enough to my right a car took out another cars tail light
Stopping distances used to be a feature of the driving test.
Stopping distances of 70s cars were a lot worse than cars of today.
Yes, I have often wondered why some people don't seem bothered about keeping to the average speed with these - only the odd vehicle, but what do they know that I don't?
It used to be when they first came out that cameras only recorded per lane so just swap lanes between cameras and it wouldn't pick you up. Not sure that's still the case though.
Edit, of course the rear facing cameras have to be able to clearly read your rear plate, if a lot of traffic or you are in front of a lorry but that lorry is quite close it probably can't read your plate.
Slow drivers are far more dangerous than those that drive over the speed limit. I've lost count of the times that I've been doing 90 on the motorway whilst checking my emails and almost driven into the back of some old fool pottering along at 55.
Its the average speed cameras that do my head in. I must be the only person that slows down, sticks on the cruise control and sits there at the right speed while every other fcuker comes hurtling past. When we went up to Liverpool about 3-4 months ago, there was a section of the M6 with the cameras which felt like it went on forever. Perhaps I'm not understanding how these cameras work. I assume they use a basic distance divided by time calculation between each and every set of cameras to see if you're breaking the limit? Just dont undertstand how so many people come flying past me as they must all be getting tickets?!?!?
Yes, I have often wondered why some people don't seem bothered about keeping to the average speed with these - only the odd vehicle, but what do they know that I don't?
I read a survey about this some while ago. It seems an unbelievable number of drivers believe that the average speed cameras take a record of your speed at camera one and another one at camera two and then take an average of those two speeds! So they feel they can do whatever speed they like in between cameras. The truth, of course, is that it's a time-based system between two points a set distance apart and the calculation of your speed is done by working out how long it takes you to travel that far. Some people must wonder why they get so many tickets.
One thing though, in a long stretch of roadworks, you never know how the linkage is actually working. It could be camera one to camera two, three or four, etc or any wretched combination. (And, agreed, those M6 roadworks are really, really tedious.)
Its the average speed cameras that do my head in. I must be the only person that slows down, sticks on the cruise control and sits there at the right speed while every other fcuker comes hurtling past. When we went up to Liverpool about 3-4 months ago, there was a section of the M6 with the cameras which felt like it went on forever. Perhaps I'm not understanding how these cameras work. I assume they use a basic distance divided by time calculation between each and every set of cameras to see if you're breaking the limit? Just dont undertstand how so many people come flying past me as they must all be getting tickets?!?!?
Yes, I have often wondered why some people don't seem bothered about keeping to the average speed with these - only the odd vehicle, but what do they know that I don't?
I read a survey about this some while ago. It seems an unbelievable number of drivers believe that the average speed cameras take a record of your speed at camera one and another one at camera two and then take an average of those two speeds! So they feel they can do whatever speed they like in between cameras. The truth, of course, is that it's a time-based system between two points a set distance apart and the calculation of your speed is done by working out how long it takes you to travel that far. Some people must wonder why they get so many tickets.
One thing though, in a long stretch of roadworks, you never know how the linkage is actually working. It could be camera one to camera two, three or four, etc or any wretched combination. (And, agreed, those M6 roadworks are really, really tedious.)
What makes it more tedious and frustrating is that the roadworks between J16-J19 are due to gantry variable speed signs being installed!!
Hard lines Sillav. Lot of righteous on this thread.
20mph zones are just not what we are used to and it's hard to drive so slow sometimes if your real concentration is actually on your driving and you don't expect a zone to be so low (except by schools etc).
I got done doing 57 when I hadn't realised a 60 zone on a motorway had dropped down to 50.
As a result of that I'm probably a worse driver now as I find when the limits are chopping and changing all over the place i am driving less carefully as I'm forever looking for signs with speed limits, my dashboard, cameras etc.
There is a road near slough where the speed limit is 50 then it drops suddenly to 30, where the first 30 sign is there is a camera right behind it, loads of people having to brake quickly is not safe and sure enough to my right a car took out another cars tail light
Stopping distances used to be a feature of the driving test.
Stopping distances of 70s cars were a lot worse than cars of today.
You are certainly generally correct but I would imagine some cars stop quicker than others. Also since the 70s human reaction time has remained about the same but car have been able to travel a lot faster.
I think that drivers are generally more speed aware than they were 20 years ago. This is undoubtedly a good thing. It is rare to see someone driving at 95 mph plus on a motorway these days because the chances of getting caught are relatively high even if you know where the speed cameras are.
However, as is typical in this day and age, it has led to lazy authorities, who think they can cut costs and improve standards at the same time. Speeding and illegal parking are easy ways to raise money, reduce collection costs, be seen to "be doing something", yet miss people who drive stupidly or park selfishly. You rarely see a police car on the roads these days checking that drivers are behaving themselves. I suspect almost all driving prosecutions excluding speeding are only made after an accident. That just means, in my mind, that the easiest route not the best route has been chosen in the name of safety.
I suspect that most people who drive at 45 mph on a 40 mph are not a serious danger in most circumstances, yet the idiot who pulls out dangerously or weaves from lane to lane on a motorway (or choose your favourite idiot driving offence) but keeps within the speed limit will go unpunished for a far more dangerous offence. It really doesn't surprise me that the obsession with controlling speeds does not improve the overall standard unless it is used in conjunction with other measures and better education.
My sat nav goes orange a few mph above the speed limit and then red - I assume the ornage is within the non punishment limit which is reasonable I think as car speedos are not 100% accurate - but 27 in a 20 zone is a massive difference - the lower the speed, the lower the proportional leeway.
Not trying to be righteous but merely pointing out that 27mph is about 135% of the speed limit so no way to escape a penalty. It is the equivalent of doing over 94mph instead of 70. I got done doing 92mph on a motorway quite a few years ago and got a harsh talking to from the police, but thankfully only 3 points and not court! It did make me much more speed aware though to be fair.
Not quite sure how that equates to 135%?
7s into 21 go 3 thimes which is 33.33333% - so 7s into 20 is about 35%. I said 135% of the speed limit, not 135% times the limit, so think my maths are right.
You also said about 135% where as it is, in fact, exactly 135%.
Was driving coastbound down the A20/M20 last week and the entire stretch from the M25 junction at Swanley to the junction with the M26 was a 40mph limit. Not a single cone, police car, workman, ambulance, broken down car or anything else whatsoever to warrant such a massive decrease in the speed limit. Surprisingly enough, 95% of traffic ignored the limit and carried on as usual!
Comments
I can put them all down to stupidity because I was a bit of a boy racer and liked going fast. You live and learn.
So whilst I agree speeding is against the law and I paid the price I really wish more was done to deal with dangerous drivers, drivers using mobile phone handsets, middle lane hoggers that sort of thing.
Speed limits are there for a reason.
Around 1990, pre cameras,I was pulled over by the police. Back then they seemed to have a little more leeway in what was and wasn't given out. I confessed and they gave me the roadside lecture, basically they told me to get up earlier and be more aware of the world around me. The message has stuck with me and I have never had a point on my licence.
It is an additional layer if they rush right up behind you and expect you to speed too.
I will let them go by except there is no way of getting out of their way, what are they thinking will happen, that you can disappear in a puff of smoke?
1000 worse than middle lane hoggers are tailgaters.
I hope your boy manages to get his head round what happened. Rest in peace to his friends
Seen loads of people (usually young women in my experience) with kids in car looking up and down, very obvious they are texting/on phone. Absolute morons.
This means when I'm driving through Lewisham now on the 20mph route I'm constantly winding people up . I even got a warning for doing 30 as I came out of clacket lane services as it's officially 10mph , try doing 10 there , it ain't possible.
I'm trying not to be all self-righteous about this but some of the stuff put out by road safety charities like BRAKE is worryingly inaccurate. But they never get challenged when they are wheeled out by the media to give a quote on an accident, yet they have no especial expertise. Here's an extract from their web site on one of their campaigns: "Pace for People is a campaign to reduce and enforce the speed limit in our towns, in order to reduce casualties, reduce fear of cycling and walking, reduce pollution and improve health through active travel. It's something that government can do, now, to save lives and the climate."
Well, I'm sorry but it is likely they will be sorely disappointed as I have to say that further speed limit reductions is very unlikely to have the effect they hope for. Either in casualty or pollution reduction. (Things like traffic calming measures have a terrible impact on pollution.)
As a driver, I can only report on my personal experiences and behaviour. I find pootling through 20mph zones in urban areas and, indeed the 40mph motorway roadwork zones at the posted speed limit to have a terrible, negative, mind-numbing impact upon my levels of concentration. It's boring and my mind switches off from my usual state of alertness. I focus so much of my efforts on my speedometer to make sure that I don't get done by the average speed cameras that my mind wanders away from observing other more important things, like whether a lorry is wandering out of lane, whether traffic ahead is slowing, whether there are pedestrians or road workers in the vicinity, etc, etc.
In my opinion the focus on 20mph limits in often inappropriate circumstances and of using cameras - and cameras almost alone - in highway enforcement is a very bad idea indeed. Cameras will catch speeders, sure. They will not catch dangerous driving, careless driving, middle-lane hoggers, people using mobile phones, pick-ups with dangerous loads, people with badly maintained vehicles, busted lights or bald tyres, etc, etc.
What we need, are more black rats, more driver training with a focus on defensive driving techniques, much more driver training for fleet drivers (firms should be required to provide such training for their operatives), AND much more training for school children, particularly with regard to the dangers of concentrating on their mobile phones and nothing else.
Suffolk provides us with a good example of speed limit stupidity. They placed a blanket 30mph limit in all their tiny little villages. Despite the fact that you'd never see a pedestrian in these areas in a million years. And despite the fact that some of these 30mph limits apply to major trunk roads. So, guess what happened? Here's the headline Suffolk’s 2015 road death toll was worst for six years. It's probably true to say that idiot drivers are still to blame but what happens is most people slow to 30 but the locals, in particular, who know the roads and that the limits are pointless and irrational, get irritated and impatient. They then speed and overtake dangerously. Whereas, what previously happened was that everyone trundled along in a queue quite happily at 40 or 50mph.
We need grown up and joined up road safety measures and we are a long, long way away from that and probably it's getting worse not better.
I think it made me a better driver generally because a dent in a car is a broken bone for a motorcyclist.
A huge number of motorcyclists are reckless and speed, and the scooter and pizza folk are dreadful accidents waiting to happen. Not much skin will be left on those bare hands and knees from a tumble even at 15mph.
What I learned was to expect the worse case scenario in every situation, including pedestrians randomly veering off the pavement into the road, and certainly car drivers pulling out in front of you.
There is something about driving generally that brings out the worst in us, me included. However rubbish pedestrians are kind of exempt because people came before vehicles, and why should non driving pedestrians (children especially) have to show deference and understanding to drivers? It should be the other way around.
Edit, of course the rear facing cameras have to be able to clearly read your rear plate, if a lot of traffic or you are in front of a lorry but that lorry is quite close it probably can't read your plate.
One thing though, in a long stretch of roadworks, you never know how the linkage is actually working. It could be camera one to camera two, three or four, etc or any wretched combination. (And, agreed, those M6 roadworks are really, really tedious.)
So many have such tight schedules leaving no time for manners.
It also feels out of order, if you should ever challenge their decision, then you risk further penalties, as I did!
As others have said, why doesn't using a phone when driving, have a zero tolerance?
The initiatives they're using around this issue, clearly isn't working.
However, as is typical in this day and age, it has led to lazy authorities, who think they can cut costs and improve standards at the same time. Speeding and illegal parking are easy ways to raise money, reduce collection costs, be seen to "be doing something", yet miss people who drive stupidly or park selfishly. You rarely see a police car on the roads these days checking that drivers are behaving themselves. I suspect almost all driving prosecutions excluding speeding are only made after an accident. That just means, in my mind, that the easiest route not the best route has been chosen in the name of safety.
I suspect that most people who drive at 45 mph on a 40 mph are not a serious danger in most circumstances, yet the idiot who pulls out dangerously or weaves from lane to lane on a motorway (or choose your favourite idiot driving offence) but keeps within the speed limit will go unpunished for a far more dangerous offence. It really doesn't surprise me that the obsession with controlling speeds does not improve the overall standard unless it is used in conjunction with other measures and better education.