Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
Did you really mean to write that?
I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.
It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
Often schools do not want the teachers to stay around working at the end of the day, getting in the way of cleaners, etc.! Many people in offices and factories do not spend many "uncontracted" hours in the evenings, weekends and "long holidays" doing essential preparation, marking and admin tasks. Also (if they do not have school age children) they are able to choose to take their holidays at cheaper, off-peak times of the year. Really, this all goes to show it is impossible to make such comparisons in a truly fair manner.
All I can say which may be relevant is that over a long teaching career, I had many valued colleagues who came into teaching after having careers in business and industry. All of them said they found it more tiring work teaching, and few of them stuck it out for more than a few years before returning to their former world of work.
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
Did you really mean to write that?
I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.
It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
Often schools do not want the teachers to stay around working at the end of the day, getting in the way of cleaners, etc.! Many people in offices and factories do not spend many "uncontracted" hours in the evenings, weekends and "long holidays" doing essential preparation, marking and admin tasks. Also (if they do not have school age children) they are able to choose to take their holidays at cheaper, off-peak times of the year. Really, this all goes to show it is impossible to make such comparisons in a truly fair manner.
All I can say which may be relevant is that over a long teaching career, I had many valued colleagues who came into teaching after having careers in business and industry. All of them said they found it more tiring work teaching, and few of them stuck it out for more than a few years before returning to their former world of work.
I expect that's right. I had a job which involved me in some pretty stressful stuff, interviewing suspects, etc, etc. But I also did a considerable amount of induction training for newbie graduates, lawyers and accountants. I suppose it got to the stage where the training was maybe 20% of my working week. And I found the training more tiring frankly but it remained an enjoyable and rewarding experience which is why I did it. Answering questions accurately, getting names right for a large number of people you don't know, keeping them awake in the graveyard shift after lunch and trying to meet their expectations was somehow more stressful than having to deal with a confrontational lawyer or being cross-examined in Court.
HOWEVER, it was a very different type of tiring and different stress. Factoring in the long days, travelling around to appointments and then adding in the long commute I would say trumps a teacher's tiredness by some margin. It's interesting too, I think, that at the time of the last census, 70% of those working in the education sector had commutes of less than 10km. In the finance and information sectors only 50% of staff have that luxury. At the end of my career, such as it was, it was really the daily commute an hour each way with unreliable tarins that did for me rather than specifically job-related factors wearing me down.
As someone above just posted - for a graduate straight out of Uni, most likely living at home with very little outgoings I think £15k for what is effectively a p/t job is fairly reasonable.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
As someone above just posted - for a graduate straight out of Uni, most likely living at home with very little outgoings I think £15k for what is effectively a p/t job is fairly reasonable.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
Well they should be. How does it make sense to effectively exclude people with lots of different work and life experience?
Limiting the pool to kids with little of these experiences by choice is not going to offer a rounded mentor.
There will be plenty of teaching staff who can help with uni applications. Probably far less who have run their own business or worked a trade.
There is simply far too much emphasis on degrees and little if any on the valid options that could be a far better life choice for many if not most pupils.
As someone above just posted - for a graduate straight out of Uni, most likely living at home with very little outgoings I think £15k for what is effectively a p/t job is fairly reasonable.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
It might work if you're living at home, but what if you're not?
As someone above just posted - for a graduate straight out of Uni, most likely living at home with very little outgoings I think £15k for what is effectively a p/t job is fairly reasonable.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
It might work if you're living at home, but what if you're not?
As someone above just posted - for a graduate straight out of Uni, most likely living at home with very little outgoings I think £15k for what is effectively a p/t job is fairly reasonable.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
It might work if you're living at home, but what if you're not?
then don't take the job !!!
Hmmmn. OK. It might be worth remembering that not every young person has the option of family support. My understanding is that 10,000 youngsters leave care every year.
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
'Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.'
Might it not be possible that teachers prefer to go home to do their work? School car parks also tend to be empty on Saturdays and Sundays but rather than ask my Headteacher if he'd be kind enough to open the school at weekends, I choose instead to mark the assessments and plan my schemes of work at home.
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
At school, you get paid for 52 weeks, just like any other job where you're working for a year. That's why it's called paid holiday. So it's 6 x 5 x 52 = 1560. A 9-5 office job is 7.5 x 5 x 52 = 1950 (or maybe 8 x 5 x 52 = 2080).
As someone above just posted - for a graduate straight out of Uni, most likely living at home with very little outgoings I think £15k for what is effectively a p/t job is fairly reasonable.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
I was on 24k in first job and struggled towards the end of most months... There is no way you can get by on 15k and have a good decent social life
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
Did you really mean to write that?
I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.
It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
Indeed they don't, normally they work a lot more. We've had four teachers in our family. I was the least dedicated out of all of them and even I'd work between 8 and 10hrs a day.
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
Did you really mean to write that?
I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.
It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
Indeed they don't, normally they work a lot more. We've had four teachers in our family. I was the least dedicated out of all of them and even I'd work between 8 and 10hrs a day.
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
Did you really mean to write that?
I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.
It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
Often schools do not want the teachers to stay around working at the end of the day, getting in the way of cleaners, etc.! Many people in offices and factories do not spend many "uncontracted" hours in the evenings, weekends and "long holidays" doing essential preparation, marking and admin tasks. Also (if they do not have school age children) they are able to choose to take their holidays at cheaper, off-peak times of the year. Really, this all goes to show it is impossible to make such comparisons in a truly fair manner.
All I can say which may be relevant is that over a long teaching career, I had many valued colleagues who came into teaching after having careers in business and industry. All of them said they found it more tiring work teaching, and few of them stuck it out for more than a few years before returning to their former world of work.
I expect that's right. I had a job which involved me in some pretty stressful stuff, interviewing suspects, etc, etc. But I also did a considerable amount of induction training for newbie graduates, lawyers and accountants. I suppose it got to the stage where the training was maybe 20% of my working week. And I found the training more tiring frankly but it remained an enjoyable and rewarding experience which is why I did it. Answering questions accurately, getting names right for a large number of people you don't know, keeping them awake in the graveyard shift after lunch and trying to meet their expectations was somehow more stressful than having to deal with a confrontational lawyer or being cross-examined in Court.
HOWEVER, it was a very different type of tiring and different stress. Factoring in the long days, travelling around to appointments and then adding in the long commute I would say trumps a teacher's tiredness by some margin. It's interesting too, I think, that at the time of the last census, 70% of those working in the education sector had commutes of less than 10km. In the finance and information sectors only 50% of staff have that luxury. At the end of my career, such as it was, it was really the daily commute an hour each way with unreliable tarins that did for me rather than specifically job-related factors wearing me down.
I'll trade your unreliable commute for unreliable pubescent students
But ultimately, good teachers - of which there are many - like good lawyers and good workers in any other profession work very hard. I don't see why people can't just be pleased about or accepting of that.
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
At school, you get paid for 52 weeks, just like any other job where you're working for a year. That's why it's called paid holiday. So it's 6 x 5 x 52 = 1560. A 9-5 office job is 7.5 x 5 x 52 = 1950 (or maybe 8 x 5 x 52 = 2080).
School staff salaries are indeed paid 52 weeks of the year, but that doesn't mean the non working days/hours are 'paid holiday'. Otherwise if I worked a job 1 hour a day and 1 day a week how much 'paid holiday' does that mean I get?
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
At school, you get paid for 52 weeks, just like any other job where you're working for a year. That's why it's called paid holiday. So it's 6 x 5 x 52 = 1560. A 9-5 office job is 7.5 x 5 x 52 = 1950 (or maybe 8 x 5 x 52 = 2080).
Really? You're, actually, going to try to suggest that a job that has 14 weeks holiday is every bit as many days (hours) each year as someone that has four weeks holiday?
If you can't see the benefit/reward of an extra ten weeks paid leave and think that it has no bearing on the salary then maybe you can convince all businesses to close when the kids are off.
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
Did you really mean to write that?
I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.
It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
Often schools do not want the teachers to stay around working at the end of the day, getting in the way of cleaners, etc.! Many people in offices and factories do not spend many "uncontracted" hours in the evenings, weekends and "long holidays" doing essential preparation, marking and admin tasks. Also (if they do not have school age children) they are able to choose to take their holidays at cheaper, off-peak times of the year. Really, this all goes to show it is impossible to make such comparisons in a truly fair manner.
All I can say which may be relevant is that over a long teaching career, I had many valued colleagues who came into teaching after having careers in business and industry. All of them said they found it more tiring work teaching, and few of them stuck it out for more than a few years before returning to their former world of work.
This is, of course, true but paints a very one sided argument. What about all those parents that have to fork out a fortune to have someone look after their children during the holidays.
I have many friends that have had to take time off on their own to look after their children. Mun has a week off then Dad has a week off.
If people have children then they have to manage the holidays but equally those that get all the school holidays must have know that they would have to go away then.
It comes down to choice. Teachers salaries haven't changed significantly and nor have the holidays. If one doesn't want to be a teacher then don't be one, and if one really wants fourteen weeks holidays then seriously consider teaching.
I don't doubt that teachers work hard, and they have a very important job but let's not kid ourselves that the jam packed trains on the way into London at 5am and coming back at 7pm every day are full of tourists while the employees stroll in at 9am and leave at 5pm and never take work home.
I've been a mentor for about 30 thirteen to fifteen year olds over the past 25 years. I've done it on a voluntary basis and found it very rewarding with about 70% of those I've mentored.
It's helped me develop as an individual and more importantly I hope I've helped the variety of youngsters into become well rounded individuals.
One of the first girls I mentored for a year, invited me to her wedding.
One of the last boys I mentored for six months is in a young offenders institution.
Most importantly four of them are now committed Charlton fans, one of whom posts on here.
I've been a mentor for about 30 thirteen to fifteen year olds over the past 25 years. I've done it on a voluntary basis and found it very rewarding with about 70% of those I've mentored.
It's helped me develop as an individual and more importantly I hope I've helped the variety of youngsters into become well rounded individuals.
One of the first girls I mentored for a year, invited me to her wedding.
One of the last boys I mentored for six months is in a young offenders institution.
Most importantly four of them are now committed Charlton fans, one of whom posts on here.
So what you're saying is you've abused your position of power to manipulate and ultimately destroy their lives
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
At school, you get paid for 52 weeks, just like any other job where you're working for a year. That's why it's called paid holiday. So it's 6 x 5 x 52 = 1560. A 9-5 office job is 7.5 x 5 x 52 = 1950 (or maybe 8 x 5 x 52 = 2080).
Really? You're, actually, going to try to suggest that a job that has 14 weeks holiday is every bit as many days (hours) each year as someone that has four weeks holiday?
If you can't see the benefit/reward of an extra ten weeks paid leave and think that it has no bearing on the salary then maybe you can convince all businesses to close when the kids are off.
Why not scrap the long breaks and terms, then just have a working day of 9-4.30, five weeks holiday, and employ sub teachers, then see how teachers would react?
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
At school, you get paid for 52 weeks, just like any other job where you're working for a year. That's why it's called paid holiday. So it's 6 x 5 x 52 = 1560. A 9-5 office job is 7.5 x 5 x 52 = 1950 (or maybe 8 x 5 x 52 = 2080).
Really? You're, actually, going to try to suggest that a job that has 14 weeks holiday is every bit as many days (hours) each year as someone that has four weeks holiday?
If you can't see the benefit/reward of an extra ten weeks paid leave and think that it has no bearing on the salary then maybe you can convince all businesses to close when the kids are off.
Why not scrap the long breaks and terms, then just have a working day of 9-4.30, five weeks holiday, and employ sub teachers, then see how teachers would react?
Not sure how the teachers would react but the kids would go apeshit
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
At school, you get paid for 52 weeks, just like any other job where you're working for a year. That's why it's called paid holiday. So it's 6 x 5 x 52 = 1560. A 9-5 office job is 7.5 x 5 x 52 = 1950 (or maybe 8 x 5 x 52 = 2080).
Really? You're, actually, going to try to suggest that a job that has 14 weeks holiday is every bit as many days (hours) each year as someone that has four weeks holiday?
If you can't see the benefit/reward of an extra ten weeks paid leave and think that it has no bearing on the salary then maybe you can convince all businesses to close when the kids are off.
Why not scrap the long breaks and terms, then just have a working day of 9-4.30, five weeks holiday, and employ sub teachers, then see how teachers would react?
Not sure how the teachers would react but the kids would go apeshit
Sod em, who really thinks the education system is for the benefits of the kids anyway?. Parents will love it, less child care, holidays without being fined, crime and vandalism will go down. You could bring back sport and Art, and at the end of the day as said earlier who cares what the kids think!
Fourteen weeks holiday might happen in the private sector of education but not in state schools. How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!
In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.
If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.
Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257.
We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
35 hour week?
I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.
I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?
£15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.
It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.
Did you really mean to write that?
I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.
It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
Often schools do not want the teachers to stay around working at the end of the day, getting in the way of cleaners, etc.! Many people in offices and factories do not spend many "uncontracted" hours in the evenings, weekends and "long holidays" doing essential preparation, marking and admin tasks. Also (if they do not have school age children) they are able to choose to take their holidays at cheaper, off-peak times of the year. Really, this all goes to show it is impossible to make such comparisons in a truly fair manner.
All I can say which may be relevant is that over a long teaching career, I had many valued colleagues who came into teaching after having careers in business and industry. All of them said they found it more tiring work teaching, and few of them stuck it out for more than a few years before returning to their former world of work.
Re in bold, there are a number of myths around 'contracted hours' for Teachers which only helps people with the 'they only work part time' narrative. Teachers are not only contracted to work 195 days a year and 6.5 hours, that is their directed time (the time the head teacher can direct their work). There is other, non directed contracted work, outside of those hours that form part of their contract of employment.
Their terms and conditions (STPCD) goes into this in detail, unfortunately I came across many teachers, head teachers and Union reps who hadn't read or knew this and believed it is restricted to the 1265 hours (which don't apply to leadership roles anyway). In fact I'd say more didn't than did.
For reference in addition to the 1265 hours of directed time their terms and conditions state;
In addition to the hours a teacher is required to be available for work under paragraph 52.5 or 52.6, a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress and achievements of assigned pupils.
So Teachers (as we I hope all know) don't only work 6.5 hours a day and 195 days a year, however it is also unfair and misleading when teachers state that they are working all these 'additional hours' that they aren't contracted for, for marking, preparation etc when in fact this is part of their contract of employment.
Teachers work damn hard, that is for sure, and I have the upmost respect for what they do (it's certainly a Job I could never do or be any good at) it's extremely intensive, but lets dispel the myth that;
a) teachers 'only' work 6.5 hours a day and 195 days a year. b) equally important is that those hours aren't all they are contracted for and they are somehow getting a bad deal by having to work additional hours when in fact that is what they are paid and contracted to do.
I'd stick my neck out and say most teachers work in a year similar hours as an office worker or factory worker who actually sticks to the 9-5. My experience in an office though is very few only do those hours.
How is 'reasonable' defined? Looks like it isn't. The contractual terms above read as open ended and somebody could argue that it is 'reasonable' for teachers to work 14 hour days. Contrast that with solicitors who charge £20 per email they read, or a tradesperson who clock up their work in per hour parcels. No open endedness there. Or a taxi on a meter. An OFSTED inspector, or chair of governors, or headteacher can argue that a teacher's performance is unsatisfactory if they don't work from 7am to 9pm every single day and they would have those dreadful open ended contractual terms to back them up. The line would be that as a head or Governor or inspector they know better than anybody else what are 'reasonable' hours for a teacher to work. The contract stinks and worthy of extended industrial action. Let the parents have the kids all day and see what happens then. We are about to enter the school holiday season, when the novelty wears off, and the kids run out of money after a week or so, given the current social climate it would not surprise me if we have a repeat of those riots and lootings. It happened before, during school holidays, organised over blackberry mobile telephones, the parents were nowhere to be seen. It is being a parent that has no limit of hours, not being a teacher...or at least it shouldn't be the case.
@seth plum in the main I don't disagree, just trying to dispel the myth on both sides that teachers only work part time, either in reality or in the terms of their contract.
You'll find the open ended part is no different to middle managers and above in offices in my experience.
The other option is to formalise those non teaching hours, but I suspect if you said to teachers they had to work 8-7 in school on every one of the 195 days that wouldn't be very popular! Which is roughly the same as a 9-5 hours, 48 weeks of the year.
It's certainly not perfect but I suspect most teachers value the flexibility of being able to work from home like that, I know I would!!
@seth plum in the main I don't disagree, just trying to dispel the myth on both sides that teachers only work part time, either in reality or in the terms of their contract.
You'll find the open ended part is no different to middle managers and above in offices in my experience.
The other option is to formalise those non teaching hours, but I suspect if you said to teachers they had to work 8-7 in school on every one of the 195 days that wouldn't be very popular! Which is roughly the same as a 9-5 hours, 48 weeks of the year.
It's certainly not perfect but I suspect most teachers value the flexibility of being able to work from home like that, I know I would!!
I agree, but teachers probably hate being castigated for their so called short hours and long holidays.
The problem, as I have stated before, is that everybody thinks they are an expert on teaching because they have been to school. I am not an expert on orthopedic surgery because I have a knee.
Comments
All I can say which may be relevant is that over a long teaching career, I had many valued colleagues who came into teaching after having careers in business and industry. All of them said they found it more tiring work teaching, and few of them stuck it out for more than a few years before returning to their former world of work.
HOWEVER, it was a very different type of tiring and different stress. Factoring in the long days, travelling around to appointments and then adding in the long commute I would say trumps a teacher's tiredness by some margin. It's interesting too, I think, that at the time of the last census, 70% of those working in the education sector had commutes of less than 10km. In the finance and information sectors only 50% of staff have that luxury. At the end of my career, such as it was, it was really the daily commute an hour each way with unreliable tarins that did for me rather than specifically job-related factors wearing me down.
I'm mot expecting a 30 year old with a mortgage & kids to take it - and I doubt nor is the school.
Limiting the pool to kids with little of these experiences by choice is not going to offer a rounded mentor.
There will be plenty of teaching staff who can help with uni applications. Probably far less who have run their own business or worked a trade.
There is simply far too much emphasis on degrees and little if any on the valid options that could be a far better life choice for many if not most pupils.
OK.
It might be worth remembering that not every young person has the option of family support.
My understanding is that 10,000 youngsters leave care every year.
Might it not be possible that teachers prefer to go home to do their work? School car parks also tend to be empty on Saturdays and Sundays but rather than ask my Headteacher if he'd be kind enough to open the school at weekends, I choose instead to mark the assessments and plan my schemes of work at home.
But ultimately, good teachers - of which there are many - like good lawyers and good workers in any other profession work very hard. I don't see why people can't just be pleased about or accepting of that.
Why are many school jobs (appreciate not teachers) advertised as say £21k but 'pro-rata' £12k or similar? Have a look at any of these - https://jobs.lewisham.gov.uk/schools/SearchResults.aspx?ocg=894
They advertise the FTE salary and then pro rata down by number of hours a day and 39 weeks, doesn't mean someone gets 13 weeks paid holiday.
If you can't see the benefit/reward of an extra ten weeks paid leave and think that it has no bearing on the salary then maybe you can convince all businesses to close when the kids are off.
I have many friends that have had to take time off on their own to look after their children. Mun has a week off then Dad has a week off.
If people have children then they have to manage the holidays but equally those that get all the school holidays must have know that they would have to go away then.
It comes down to choice. Teachers salaries haven't changed significantly and nor have the holidays. If one doesn't want to be a teacher then don't be one, and if one really wants fourteen weeks holidays then seriously consider teaching.
I don't doubt that teachers work hard, and they have a very important job but let's not kid ourselves that the jam packed trains on the way into London at 5am and coming back at 7pm every day are full of tourists while the employees stroll in at 9am and leave at 5pm and never take work home.
I've been a mentor for about 30 thirteen to fifteen year olds over the past 25 years. I've done it on a voluntary basis and found it very rewarding with about 70% of those I've mentored.
It's helped me develop as an individual and more importantly I hope I've helped the variety of youngsters into become well rounded individuals.
One of the first girls I mentored for a year, invited me to her wedding.
One of the last boys I mentored for six months is in a young offenders institution.
Most importantly four of them are now committed Charlton fans, one of whom posts on here.
How long is the average holiday in other jobs? Like as a solicitor, or in finance, or working in a car showroom or
Their terms and conditions (STPCD) goes into this in detail, unfortunately I came across many teachers, head teachers and Union reps who hadn't read or knew this and believed it is restricted to the 1265 hours (which don't apply to leadership roles anyway). In fact I'd say more didn't than did.
For reference in addition to the 1265 hours of directed time their terms and conditions state;
In addition to the hours a teacher is required to be available for work under paragraph 52.5 or 52.6, a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress and achievements of assigned pupils.
So Teachers (as we I hope all know) don't only work 6.5 hours a day and 195 days a year, however it is also unfair and misleading when teachers state that they are working all these 'additional hours' that they aren't contracted for, for marking, preparation etc when in fact this is part of their contract of employment.
Teachers work damn hard, that is for sure, and I have the upmost respect for what they do (it's certainly a Job I could never do or be any good at) it's extremely intensive, but lets dispel the myth that;
a) teachers 'only' work 6.5 hours a day and 195 days a year.
b) equally important is that those hours aren't all they are contracted for and they are somehow getting a bad deal by having to work additional hours when in fact that is what they are paid and contracted to do.
I'd stick my neck out and say most teachers work in a year similar hours as an office worker or factory worker who actually sticks to the 9-5. My experience in an office though is very few only do those hours.
If anyone has a spare few hours it's all here; https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/550286/STPCD_2016_guidance.pdf
Looks like it isn't.
The contractual terms above read as open ended and somebody could argue that it is 'reasonable' for teachers to work 14 hour days.
Contrast that with solicitors who charge £20 per email they read, or a tradesperson who clock up their work in per hour parcels. No open endedness there. Or a taxi on a meter.
An OFSTED inspector, or chair of governors, or headteacher can argue that a teacher's performance is unsatisfactory if they don't work from 7am to 9pm every single day and they would have those dreadful open ended contractual terms to back them up.
The line would be that as a head or Governor or inspector they know better than anybody else what are 'reasonable' hours for a teacher to work.
The contract stinks and worthy of extended industrial action. Let the parents have the kids all day and see what happens then. We are about to enter the school holiday season, when the novelty wears off, and the kids run out of money after a week or so, given the current social climate it would not surprise me if we have a repeat of those riots and lootings.
It happened before, during school holidays, organised over blackberry mobile telephones, the parents were nowhere to be seen.
It is being a parent that has no limit of hours, not being a teacher...or at least it shouldn't be the case.
You'll find the open ended part is no different to middle managers and above in offices in my experience.
The other option is to formalise those non teaching hours, but I suspect if you said to teachers they had to work 8-7 in school on every one of the 195 days that wouldn't be very popular! Which is roughly the same as a 9-5 hours, 48 weeks of the year.
It's certainly not perfect but I suspect most teachers value the flexibility of being able to work from home like that, I know I would!!
The problem, as I have stated before, is that everybody thinks they are an expert on teaching because they have been to school. I am not an expert on orthopedic surgery because I have a knee.