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Crap pay for school mentor

Please allow me to have a rant.

I received an email recently advising of a job vacancy for an ex pupil of crown woods school as mentor.

Clearly, this could be an important role and potentially hugely beneficial to the students.

Unfortunately, they are looking for a graduate and offering a paltry 15k. Ok, so you get school hols off but FFS, what standard of applicant do they expect?

After graduating from uni, why would any self respecting candidate go for this? If they employ a poor one, the students suffer, if they employ a good one, they will be off as soon as a decent job turns up and the students suffer.

Also, why is a graduate needed? I would have thought it would be useful to consider an ex pupil with few exam passes who went on to do well. Particularly as uni was only taken up by a very small minority in years gone by.

My sister is an ex teacher who has been scathing at the way education has been heading for years. I know this is just a small issue in the scheme of things but seems to be indicative of a worrying malaise as a result of cuts in the wrong places.

Well thanks for letting me get that off my chest.
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Comments

  • A quick google shows that seems to be the going rate, the idea being that it gives `invaluable' experience to someone wanting to become a teacher.
  • Crap pay is becoming the norm.
  • Please allow me to have a rant.

    I received an email recently advising of a job vacancy for an ex pupil of crown woods school as mentor.

    Clearly, this could be an important role and potentially hugely beneficial to the students.

    Unfortunately, they are looking for a graduate and offering a paltry 15k. Ok, so you get school hols off but FFS, what standard of applicant do they expect?

    After graduating from uni, why would any self respecting candidate go for this? If they employ a poor one, the students suffer, if they employ a good one, they will be off as soon as a decent job turns up and the students suffer.

    Also, why is a graduate needed? I would have thought it would be useful to consider an ex pupil with few exam passes who went on to do well. Particularly as uni was only taken up by a very small minority in years gone by.

    My sister is an ex teacher who has been scathing at the way education has been heading for years. I know this is just a small issue in the scheme of things but seems to be indicative of a worrying malaise as a result of cuts in the wrong places.

    Well thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

    I'm not sure I understand how this can work well. I'm firmly of the view that mentoring functions best on a one-to-one basis. If that happens at school the kid is either out of class (bad idea) or the mentor only gets to do their thing in breaks or after school, so hours would be limited? And there's a limited availability of mentors. Sometimes two people just don't/can't get on well.

    My ex-employer was a firm believer in mentoring. Both at work and in the community. That meant that us volunteers went off and mentored in our lunch breaks at schools. We enjoyed it, the schools always said their pupils enjoyed it and got a lot out of it. (And it cost the schools nothing). Mentoring at work was done on the basis that the mentee got to choose their mentor. I ended up with six. (That might have been because I did most of my mentoring down the pub. Which worked even for a young Muslim employee as she loved the pub's cheesy chips!)

    Anyway, the bit I've highlighted above. I'd also have thought experienced (and free) workers doing a bit of volunteer mentoring would actually bring more to the table than a new graduate (albeit a cheap one.)
  • Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

  • Is it a part time role? You could fill in with summer/holiday school and tutoring after school (teachers I know do this) and end up with something decent
  • edited July 5
    Rob7Lee said:

    Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

    Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257. :)

    We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
  • edited July 5
    bobmunro said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

    Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257. :)

    We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
    There was a little guess work in my numbers. Teachers are contracted for longer hours than pupils are in school whereas generally assistants and this type of role are more tied to pupil hours. Teachers also have 5 additional paid days as well as hours. I know my wife is those hours as a Teaching Assistant although she works far longer that is what she is paid for, not sure if the specifics of this job.

    as an example: https://jobs.lewisham.gov.uk/schools/support-staff-class-prendergast-school-teaching-assistant/15176.job

    27.5 hours a week, term time only, this one is 39 weeks (as they pay the 5 additional days/1 week) so 1072.5 hours.

    On graduates it does depend on the role, having just spoken to HR generally only a handful get more than £25k starting which are usually trainee actuaries with a 1st in maths. That said a successful grad will be £40k+ within 3-5 years if the continue with studies.

    I think part of what's kept salaries low (not sure if this is just London or my field) is the sheer number of applicants, we easily get 500+ for every role.

  • bobmunro said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

    Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257. :)

    We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
    Absolutely spot on @bobmunro this is what was on offer.
  • McBobbin said:

    Is it a part time role? You could fill in with summer/holiday school and tutoring after school (teachers I know do this) and end up with something decent

    school hours = part time. 6 weeks off in the summer, 2 off at xmas & easter, plus 3 half terms of a week each. Not bad for £15k for a 21-23 yr old with no experience.

    Also under the £21k figure that means no tuition fees need repaying.

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  • McBobbin said:

    Is it a part time role? You could fill in with summer/holiday school and tutoring after school (teachers I know do this) and end up with something decent

    school hours = part time. 6 weeks off in the summer, 2 off at xmas & easter, plus 3 half terms of a week each. Not bad for £15k for a 21-23 yr old with no experience.

    Also under the £21k figure that means no tuition fees need repaying.

    Well, it's more time shifting since teachers work way beyond their contracted hours during term time to make up for it! I meant part time as in a just mornings or afternoons, rather than a full school day
  • What exactly does a school mentor do? Sounds very much a part time position to me
  • Can't see how a new graduate mentors kids at school when they haven't really lived and experienced the real world.

    I use to mentor in local schools when I worked in London, enjoyable for the few hours I put in, certainly didn't expect any money for doing it.
  • What exactly does a school mentor do? Sounds very much a part time position to me

    You still have a few days to apply @AFKABartram

    https://www.tes.com/jobs/vacancy/key-stage-5-graduate-mentor-greenwich-520632

    Stationers’ Crown Woods Academy Job Description

    Post: Key Stage 5 Graduate Mentor Reporting to: Head of Sixth Form Basis: 38 weeks per annum (Term Time), 35 hours a week

    Role Purpose:  To work specifically in the Sixth Form with individual students and small groups of students to enhance their learning and pastoral experience  To work closely with the Head of Sixth form and the Sixth Form team together with individual subject teachers

    Key Areas of Responsibility: 
    Deliver timetabled academic skills and SMSC materials on a daily or weekly basis 
    Supervise the Sixth Form Study rooms, administer attendance and follow up any concerns/nonattendance 
    Implement intervention and monitoring strategies with underperforming students to set up targets, personalised action plans and study plans 
    To coach and mentor identified sixth form students 
    To support tutors in communication with parents, especially parents of underachieving or vulnerable students 
    To lead on Student Voice and manage the Student Council To offer pastoral support to students 
    To assist students through the University application process (UCAS) offering advice and guidance for choosing courses and universities 
    To offer advice, support and guidance to students not going to university 
    To assist with the year 11 application and transition programme into Sixth Form 
    Attend parents evening and sixth form open evenings 
    Assist with A level results day, promotional events and enrolment days 
    Attend weekly school briefings and attend and contribute to tutor meetings 
    To work with the sixth form leadership team to implement sixth form procedures 
    To assist all members of the Sixth Form Team with any reasonable task  To undertake any reasonable request from the Head of Sixth Form

    This job description will be reviewed on an annual basis and, following consultation with you, may be changed to reflect or anticipate changes in the job requirements which are commensurate with the job title and grade.

    Person Specification

    Degree (essential) 
    Ability to communicate accurately and concisely (essential) 
    Possess an understanding and empathy with 16-19 year olds (essential) 
    Ability to work as part of a team (essential) 
    Experience of working with children or young people (desirable) 
    Experience of working in a School or Sixth Form (desirable) 
    Ability to offer an extracurricular activity (desirable)


    Signatures

    Signed:____________________________ Date:___________________________
  • Here is a calculation regarding child care/or supervised play or Education.

    There are lots of implications in what I set out here, for example private sector child experience verses state Education, also that opting to pay for private child care or supervision does not have to happen, but schooling of some sort is compulsory.

    My starting point is that you have a child, and you want another person (adult) to look after them for an hour, and you will pay a fee for that to happen. Not a million miles from the principle of paying taxes for schooling.

    I have used the fees from this child activity centre in Colchester.

    http://www.childsplayadventureland.co.uk/times-and-prices.php#.WV1DE9MrKV5

    We have:

    5.70 per child for two hours. which is £2,85 per hour.

    £85.5 for 30 kids for an hour.

    Now pause to imagine an average junior school teacher, with the holidays taken in to account you work 195 days a year.

    Imagine your contact time with a class of 30 kids is four hours per day for those 195 days.

    If the money parents are prepared to pay per hour for the services of the teacher is the same as the adventureland fee (I am leaving out the costs of the infrastructure and all that goes with it), then the teacher would be commanding the princely sum of

    4x£85.50x195

    Which makes

    £66, 690

    Now lets imagine the average annual pay for a Junior school teacher is £28,690.

    By my calculation that would leave £38,000 for everything else, the buildings and all attendant education type stuff.

    My conclusion is that in terms of basic child supervision alone, from a parents point of view sending them to school is an absolute bargain compared to the private sector looking after your kids.

    This issue is very stark when for example parents no longer pay nursery fees but can start sending their children to school.
    My other observation is how cheap the costs of the teachers actually are.

    If the cost of the childsplayadventureland went straight into the pocket of the play supervisor, they would be pulling in said £66,000 odd quid a year for 195 days work. Yes of course they have overheads too I get that.

    You could construct a case to say that highly qualified, skilled and experienced teachers are paid less that playgroup supervisors in the private sector.

    Having an education service measured on the basis of child care alone, disregarding the actual education is very cheap compared to private provision.



  • Reading that job description I think they're either expecting someone to do it for a year or two before moving on, possibly to teaching, or they are hoping for someone with kids who is looking for some extra money but will still be able to do drop-off and pick-up. They want a graduate because it's 6th Form work and involves supporting uni applications.
  • Times have changed - I don't remember having a mentor during my school years 93 - 2000
  • Schools are not the place to go to get decent pay. Plus the country needs to live within it's means etc. etc. so no decent pay for public sector workers for the foreseeable
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  • I taught abroad and raked it in
    Now I teach in the uk and am poor

    ...our education system is in a bad state

    ...salaries in the uk are more and more of a joke- especially public sector

    Have you seen how much people make in leading industrialised nations?!?!?
  • cabbles said:

    Times have changed - I don't remember having a mentor during my school years 93 - 2000

    We had two at my school in the early 60s, known locally as the Kray twins! ;)
  • bobmunro said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

    Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257. :)

    We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
    35 hour week?

    I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.

    I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.

    As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?

    £15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.

    It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
  • "To assist students through the University application process"

    Would it be harsh to suggest that if students can't do this unaided, it's probably better that they slap in an application to flip burgers somewhere rather than trouble their brains attempting a degree course?

  • bobmunro said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

    Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257. :)

    We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
    35 hour week?

    I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.

    I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.

    As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?

    £15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.

    It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
    Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.

    Did you really mean to write that?

    I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
  • I'm more concerned with why you're both scouting around school car parks!
  • seth plum said:

    bobmunro said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

    Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257. :)

    We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
    35 hour week?

    I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.

    I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.

    As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?

    £15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.

    It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
    Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.

    Did you really mean to write that?

    I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
    Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.

    It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
  • 15k is ridiculous... You can't live off that
  • seth plum said:

    bobmunro said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Purely on Financials and an hourly basis rate of pay that's actually really good!

    In the city on average a new grad will get somewhere between 22-25k.

    If school hours i.e. 6 hours x 5 days x 38 weeks = 1140 hours. A 9-5 office job is 1820 hours. So the £15k is equivalent to £24k, that's far more than a qualified teaching assistant earns! They get about £12k.

    Like for like? Sorry for being a pedant but a teacher's contracted annual hours are 1265 and that discounts holidays. Someone working 9-5 (assuming a 35 hour week) will, excluding holidays at statutory minimum, work 1624 hours. The £15k is therefore equivalent to £19,257. :)

    We start our graduate trainees on a minimum of £23k - in Stoke! That City figure surprises me.
    35 hour week?

    I don't know anyone that hasn't racked up 35 hours by Thursday lunchtime.

    I also note that every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.

    As for why do they want a graduate? Well if 40% of the population go to University these days what do you expect to get if you ask for someone without a degree? and how can you expect the sixth-formers to respect them?

    £15k a year with 14 weeks holiday and knocking off at 3:30 for a trainee sounds like a dream come true for someone that is 21, and doesn't have a mortgage.

    It's kind of like extending the Student Life only with £260 a week to spend on beer.
    Every school car park is, virtually, empty by 4pm.

    Did you really mean to write that?

    I could also note that every school car park is, virtually, chock a block full by 6.30am every day
    Yes I did. I was making the point that they do not all work until late so it affects the comparison based on hours worked per annum. I don't tend to be near the school car park at 6:30 am as I don't drop off my son until 8:30 but when I pick him up at 3:40/3:50 they have all gone home.

    It's none of my business what hours they work but I was making the point that school teachers do not all work the same hours as many people on offices and/or factories.
    I imagine that when you drop your son off in the morning the place is open, staffed and ready for business. It could well be that the teachers have been in for a couple of hours getting ready couldn't it?
    Maybe the truth is that teachers work a lot of hours but at different times...like bakers maybe.
  • Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
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