Harley Curtain Walls, CEO Richard Bailey, went bust not long after completing now destroyed tower block. It is a truly amazing coincidence (well, two actually) that the Administrator sold the remains of Harley Curtain Walls to another company called Harley Fabrics whose CEO is another bloke called Richard Bailey. How incredible is that?
What a complete shambles, disgrace & recipe for disaster !
My thanks to Carter & others who have outlined the problems which appear to be widespread.
Mr F and many of his friends in the 60's served apprenticeships when it was clear they were not cut out for white collar work. They went on to have gainful employment throughout their working lives until retirement and earned a decent wage to boot....Always a call for experienced, time served people, some of whom climbed the ladder to be managers etc.
Not everyone benefits from going to Uni and I feel there are far too many dubious courses offered these days. Mr Corbyn's "generous" offer to students would no doubt have attracted more applicants than ever.
When I first worked for the Employment Service, C & G courses in building skills & the like were on offer with the supply tailored to demand. It was known as addressing "areas of skill shortage".
By the time I took an early retirement in 2004, the courses & colleges providing such were long gone.
Sadly, whatever lessons are learned from today's tragedy, it will be far too late for those who have lost their lives.
But I would be more likely to give my vote next time to the Party that advocates a complete review of further education opportunities with university courses undergoing a rethink.
I see FF's point of view on this one. I'm part of a generation that had to fight hard to get a University place. Tuition was free, but places were limited and strictly given on ability and as a mature student in a low paid job, was lucky enough to qualify for a full grant to help pay living expenses.
The current policy of 'uni places for all' does devalue my achievement in my eyes and anyone with a policy of 'Free Everything, for Everyone (and even more free if you are in a certain demographic)' doesn't seem to understand that quality is bound to suffer.
People are different and have different skills and should contribute to society in the most appropriate way. ALL politicians should stop trying to meet artificial quotas and sometimes nonsensical targets (ie 'no-one should be in the lower quartile'; 'I want everyone to be above average') otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.
My wife is an EHO - used to do H&S in HMOs - blocked or inadequate fire escapes was a recurring theme but the landlords had every excuse under the sun. In a lot if cases it's all down to the bottom line & £££.
Politicians use cutting "regulations" as an emotive political platform - cut as much as possible regulations and burdens that stand in the way of making even more money. Health & Safety is demonised in some quarters.
They know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.
I would not wish to place the blame on anybody at this stage: it is far too early. Suggesting a shoddy refurb would certainly be something I'd stay well clear of until we know the facts.
From my personal experience great care was taken in building projects regarding fire. This covers subjects such as "surface spread of flame" on wall coverings, protection provided by fire doors and intumescent strips on those doors, etc, etc. It is inconceivable to me that such matters were not incorporated in a building such as this or that the London Fire Brigade were not consulted at every stage of the refurb project. (I'd expect any cladding, for example, to have both Class 1 and Class 0 surface spread of flame characteristics. Here's a random firm's explanation scomp.co.uk/fire-ratings/)
Surely, too, the LFB would have had one of its inspectors sign off the building project?
Finally a plea to you all. The ex-LFB in-house fire officer I used to work with told me he would not stay in a hotel until he'd done a complete walk round the building, examining fire exits, etc. (Apparently this used to wind his wife up no end especially if he then refused to stay there!)
I thought he was taking things to extreme, frankly. But his cautious nature regarding fires based upon a lifetime of working with them did rub off on me. I see these days that even holiday villas in Spain are fitted out with fire blankets, warning systems and extinguishers. How many of us can say the same about our own homes?
So, if you've got a few bob spare, before you buy anything else, anything else at all, get yourself a smoke alarm, a carbon monoxide detector, a fire blanket and an extinguisher. If you've still got some money left afterwards, buy an extinguisher for your car too. Maybe if you've a loved one with a birthday coming up or there's an anniversary, bundle this lot up in wrapping paper and show you really care. You know it makes sense.
I would not wish to place the blame on anybody at this stage: it is far too early. Suggesting a shoddy refurb would certainly be something I'd stay well clear of until we know the facts.
From my personal experience great care was taken in building projects regarding fire. This covers subjects such as "surface spread of flame" on wall coverings, protection provided by fire doors and intumescent strips on those doors, etc, etc. It is inconceivable to me that such matters were not incorporated in a building such as this or that the London Fire Brigade were not consulted at every stage of the refurb project. (I'd expect any cladding, for example, to have both Class 1 and Class 0 surface spread of flame characteristics. Here's a random firm's explanation scomp.co.uk/fire-ratings/)
Surely, too, the LFB would have had one of its inspectors sign off the building project?
Finally a plea to you all. The ex-LFB in-house fire officer I used to work with told me he would not stay in a hotel until he'd done a complete walk round the building, examining fire exits, etc. (Apparently this used to wind his wife up no end especially if he then refused to stay there!)
I thought he was taking things to extreme, frankly. But his cautious nature regarding fires based upon a lifetime of working with them did rub off on me. I see these days that even holiday villas in Spain are fitted out with fire blankets, warning systems and extinguishers. How many of us can say the same about our own homes?
So, if you've got a few bob spare, before you buy anything else, anything else at all, get yourself a smoke alarm, a carbon monoxide detector, a fire blanket and an extinguisher. If you've still got some money left afterwards, buy an extinguisher for your car too. Maybe if you've a loved one with a birthday coming up or there's an anniversary, bundle this lot up in wrapping paper and show you really care. You know it makes sense.
We live in a tall house - the drop from the bedroom windows on the top floor would be life threatening - first thing we bought were escape ladders - a foldable ladder that hooks over the windowsill & unravels to the floor level - going to remind the kids how to use the, again tonight.
I see FF's point of view on this one. I'm part of a generation that had to fight hard to get a University place. Tuition was free, but places were limited and strictly given on ability and as a mature student in a low paid job, was lucky enough to qualify for a full grant to help pay living expenses.
The current policy of 'uni places for all' does devalue my achievement in my eyes and anyone with a policy of 'Free Everything, for Everyone (and even more free if you are in a certain demographic)' doesn't seem to understand that quality is bound to suffer.
People are different and have different skills and should contribute to society in the most appropriate way. ALL politicians should stop trying to meet artificial quotas and sometimes nonsensical targets (ie 'no-one should be in the lower quartile'; 'I want everyone to be above average') otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.
If you think that someone else's education somehow devalues yours, I don't know what to tell you.
Knowledge is not a finite resource. Access to it shouldn't, as much as possible, be an accident of birth. There's nothing wrong in working to increase access to education.
Education is related to how people place value on things. It seems to me, more education would help to ensure corners are not cut and lives are not lost in senseless tragedies, such as this.
What a complete shambles, disgrace & recipe for disaster !
My thanks to Carter & others who have outlined the problems which appear to be widespread.
Mr F and many of his friends in the 60's served apprenticeships when it was clear they were not cut out for white collar work. They went on to have gainful employment throughout their working lives until retirement and earned a decent wage to boot....Always a call for experienced, time served people, some of whom climbed the ladder to be managers etc.
Not everyone benefits from going to Uni and I feel there are far too many dubious courses offered these days. Mr Corbyn's "generous" offer to students would no doubt have attracted more applicants than ever.
When I first worked for the Employment Service, C & G courses in building skills & the like were on offer with the supply tailored to demand. It was known as addressing "areas of skill shortage".
By the time I took an early retirement in 2004, the courses & colleges providing such were long gone.
Sadly, whatever lessons are learned from today's tragedy, it will be far too late for those who have lost their lives.
But I would be more likely to give my vote next time to the Party that advocates a complete review of further education opportunities with university courses undergoing a rethink.
I see FF's point of view on this one. I'm part of a generation that had to fight hard to get a University place. Tuition was free, but places were limited and strictly given on ability and as a mature student in a low paid job, was lucky enough to qualify for a full grant to help pay living expenses.
The current policy of 'uni places for all' does devalue my achievement in my eyes and anyone with a policy of 'Free Everything, for Everyone (and even more free if you are in a certain demographic)' doesn't seem to understand that quality is bound to suffer.
People are different and have different skills and should contribute to society in the most appropriate way. ALL politicians should stop trying to meet artificial quotas and sometimes nonsensical targets (ie 'no-one should be in the lower quartile'; 'I want everyone to be above average') otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.
It's too soon to start speculating as to what is the cause of the fire - it's still burning - but I just can't fathom out how the number of people seeking to maximise their formal education can have a bearing on it.
If I were looking for those things that needed investigating, I would probably start with the efficacy and enforcement of building regulations; how well health and safety laws meet their requirements; whether contracts issued by the local authority were properly negotiated, drawn up and executed; whether there were sufficient fire and rescue personnel available and sufficiently well equipped; what the NHS state of readiness is; what protection is in place for all other council-owned property; to what extent tenants' obligations were being met (occupation numbers; fire exits being kept clear, etc); whether future housing stock is being built with appropriate levels of safety; and what is needed to be done to ensure an event like this is never repeated. Worrying about how many people go to university would be a lot lower on the list.
I see FF's point of view on this one. I'm part of a generation that had to fight hard to get a University place. Tuition was free, but places were limited and strictly given on ability and as a mature student in a low paid job, was lucky enough to qualify for a full grant to help pay living expenses.
The current policy of 'uni places for all' does devalue my achievement in my eyes and anyone with a policy of 'Free Everything, for Everyone (and even more free if you are in a certain demographic)' doesn't seem to understand that quality is bound to suffer.
People are different and have different skills and should contribute to society in the most appropriate way. ALL politicians should stop trying to meet artificial quotas and sometimes nonsensical targets (ie 'no-one should be in the lower quartile'; 'I want everyone to be above average') otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.
If you think that someone else's education somehow devalues yours, I don't know what to tell you.
Knowledge is not a finite resource. Access to it shouldn't, as much as possible, be an accident of birth. There's nothing wrong in working to increase access to education.
Education is related to how people place value on things. It seems to me, more education would help to ensure corners are not cut and lives are not lost in senseless tragedies, such as this.
Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I'm not talking about access to education. IMHO that should be universal and free. My beef is with the number of people that are pushed into courses which are possibly inappropriate and the setting of entry into certain jobs being degree level rather than ONC/HNC type vocational qualifications. My issue is with the quantity pushing down the quality - not the accessibility
Just spoken to a friend/collegue of mine who attended the incident,its obviously grim and its going to get alot grimmer unfortunately. All the crews there went into the incident at least twice and they rescued people right up to the 24th floor but obviously they couldnt get to everyone on time. He was very choked up so left it there
My wife is an EHO - used to do H&S in HMOs - blocked or inadequate fire escapes was a recurring theme but the landlords had every excuse under the sun. In a lot if cases it's all down to the bottom line & £££.
Politicians use cutting "regulations" as an emotive political platform - cut as much as possible regulations and burdens that stand in the way of making even more money. Health & Safety is demonised in some quarters.
They know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.
It's far to early to start apportioning blame on anyone yet but it is a fact that of all the local authority departments cut during the last 7 years, planning & development, which is likely to also include building control, has been cut the most. This has been coupled with a deregulation drive.
I know Building Control Officers of my acquaintance are constantly struggling with workloads as a result and of course are always under pressure from developers, etc to sign off on projects "yesterday". I hope that this terrible tragedy is not the result of an inspector/planner cutting corners or not doing their job properly but it would not surprise me.
What a complete shambles, disgrace & recipe for disaster !
My thanks to Carter & others who have outlined the problems which appear to be widespread.
Mr F and many of his friends in the 60's served apprenticeships when it was clear they were not cut out for white collar work. They went on to have gainful employment throughout their working lives until retirement and earned a decent wage to boot....Always a call for experienced, time served people, some of whom climbed the ladder to be managers etc.
Not everyone benefits from going to Uni and I feel there are far too many dubious courses offered these days. Mr Corbyn's "generous" offer to students would no doubt have attracted more applicants than ever.
When I first worked for the Employment Service, C & G courses in building skills & the like were on offer with the supply tailored to demand. It was known as addressing "areas of skill shortage".
By the time I took an early retirement in 2004, the courses & colleges providing such were long gone.
Sadly, whatever lessons are learned from today's tragedy, it will be far too late for those who have lost their lives.
But I would be more likely to give my vote next time to the Party that advocates a complete review of further education opportunities with university courses undergoing a rethink.
I see FF's point of view on this one. I'm part of a generation that had to fight hard to get a University place. Tuition was free, but places were limited and strictly given on ability and as a mature student in a low paid job, was lucky enough to qualify for a full grant to help pay living expenses.
The current policy of 'uni places for all' does devalue my achievement in my eyes and anyone with a policy of 'Free Everything, for Everyone (and even more free if you are in a certain demographic)' doesn't seem to understand that quality is bound to suffer.
People are different and have different skills and should contribute to society in the most appropriate way. ALL politicians should stop trying to meet artificial quotas and sometimes nonsensical targets (ie 'no-one should be in the lower quartile'; 'I want everyone to be above average') otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.
It's too soon to start speculating as to what is the cause of the fire - it's still burning - but I just can't fathom out how the number of people seeking to maximise their formal education can have a bearing on it.
If I were looking for those things that needed investigating, I would probably start with the efficacy and enforcement of building regulations; how well health and safety laws meet their requirements; whether contracts issued by the local authority were properly negotiated, drawn up and executed; whether there were sufficient fire and rescue personnel available and sufficiently well equipped; what the NHS state of readiness is; what protection is in place for all other council-owned property; to what extent tenants' obligations were being met (occupation numbers; fire exits being kept clear, etc); whether future housing stock is being built with appropriate levels of safety; and what is needed to be done to ensure an event like this is never repeated. Worrying about how many people go to university would be a lot lower on the list.
As a society we are obsessed with cost cutting and short termism - there is a lot of poorly maintained and poorly built housing stock. The mansion blocks(5 storey) in London built in the 30s seem to have lasted far better than a number of the tower blocks which have inherent design flaws
I see FF's point of view on this one. I'm part of a generation that had to fight hard to get a University place. Tuition was free, but places were limited and strictly given on ability and as a mature student in a low paid job, was lucky enough to qualify for a full grant to help pay living expenses.
The current policy of 'uni places for all' does devalue my achievement in my eyes and anyone with a policy of 'Free Everything, for Everyone (and even more free if you are in a certain demographic)' doesn't seem to understand that quality is bound to suffer.
People are different and have different skills and should contribute to society in the most appropriate way. ALL politicians should stop trying to meet artificial quotas and sometimes nonsensical targets (ie 'no-one should be in the lower quartile'; 'I want everyone to be above average') otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.
If you think that someone else's education somehow devalues yours, I don't know what to tell you.
Knowledge is not a finite resource. Access to it shouldn't, as much as possible, be an accident of birth. There's nothing wrong in working to increase access to education.
Education is related to how people place value on things. It seems to me, more education would help to ensure corners are not cut and lives are not lost in senseless tragedies, such as this.
Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I'm not talking about access to education. IMHO that should be universal and free. My beef is with the number of people that are pushed into courses which are possibly inappropriate and the setting of entry into certain jobs being degree level rather than ONC/HNC type vocational qualifications. My issue is with the quantity pushing down the quality - not the accessibility
I apologise for bringing the education issue into this distressing situation & in no way wished to detract from the tragedy that has unfolded.
But @CatAddick has defined the point I was endeavouring to make much better than I could.
Thank you @Redvalleyeast . The emergency services do some awful jobs on behalf of the rest of us. While it is only right that our political representatives give formal thanks on everyone's behalf for your and your colleagues' work, it would be much more to the point if they ensure you and your co-workers have the personnel, equipment, and appropriate financial reward for all you do.
I think it is natural for us to speculate, but we should remember that we don't know yet. I don't think there is anything wrong with speculating on causes though - these are possible causes that will need ruling out or ruling in.
At risk of repeating myself, those of us who are involved in the consequences of the dollar dollar sub it out approach see things like this happening on the horizon. We're called scaremongerers, we don't see the bigger picture (short term financial gain), we worry too much, we're tubthumpers, or the classic I heard not long ago "you'd have us at the mercy of unions and on a 3 day week" which nearly earned the dickhead who said it a black yok.
People have gotten so used to malpractice, to rule bending, to blagging their way out of things, of saying 'not my responsibility' it's accepted and drives me mad. I had to loudly bollock and physically stop someone last week from doing something incredibly dangerous in the middle of a road because, in short, although he was on day rate he was petrified of his 25 year old spreadsheet merchant manager jumping on his back about his performance. The same manager that won't thank him for risking his life and limbs to get a job done. It's not acceptable on day rate or price but once someone is a self employed contractor they are expendable. Nobody will write that down but it's true.
Look at how many big construction projects are chock-full of foreign labour. It's because they are expendable, if I had a pound everytime I've heard someone think they are giving me a home truth by telling me they don't like older/British/unionised/direct labour blokes (delete as appropriate) because they are awkward or slow or expensive as justification why they have brought in 10 Croatian blokes for the cost of 2 british workers, I could retire. They do it because they can essentially bully them and have them working their bollock's off for nothing. Which is not on in my eye's.
God bless those poor people affected by this, I'm afraid some very rich people have got a lot of blood on their soft, dirty hands.
The project to refurbish these apartments wouldnt have been undertaken by unknown company, it would have be very well documented and advertised---" Council working with blah blah blah to develop real homes for real people blah blah" --- The Council Building Control Officer would have had to reviw and SIGNED off on a Cause and Effect matrix--- showing all building systems that are involved with fire /evacuation WORK---if they dont get that then occupation of the building cant happen. I worked for a sister Council to this one and we held up occupation of a Council building by a private company until ALL the issues in the Cause and Effect matrix had been signed off by Building Control.
I wonder ---speculation is only one step from conspiracy theories ! if the pressure to get this project finished meant total occupation BEFORE Building Control sign off --- then further deflected by a contractor using the Year Defects Liability bluff and the BC Officer being swamped ?
One way and another the poor old UK is taking a right battering in the last month !
6 mins for the FB to get there thats top notch response.
At risk of repeating myself, those of us who are involved in the consequences of the dollar dollar sub it out approach see things like this happening on the horizon. We're called scaremongerers, we don't see the bigger picture (short term financial gain), we worry too much, we're tubthumpers, or the classic I heard not long ago "you'd have us at the mercy of unions and on a 3 day week" which nearly earned the dickhead who said it a black yok.
People have gotten so used to malpractice, to rule bending, to blagging their way out of things, of saying 'not my responsibility' it's accepted and drives me mad. I had to loudly bollock and physically stop someone last week from doing something incredibly dangerous in the middle of a road because, in short, although he was on day rate he was petrified of his 25 year old spreadsheet merchant manager jumping on his back about his performance. The same manager that won't thank him for risking his life and limbs to get a job done. It's not acceptable on day rate or price but once someone is a self employed contractor they are expendable. Nobody will write that down but it's true.
Look at how many big construction projects are chock-full of foreign labour. It's because they are expendable, if I had a pound everytime I've heard someone think they are giving me a home truth by telling me they don't like older/British/unionised/direct labour blokes (delete as appropriate) because they are awkward or slow or expensive as justification why they have brought in 10 Croatian blokes for the cost of 2 british workers, I could retire. They do it because they can essentially bully them and have them working their bollock's off for nothing. Which is not on in my eye's.
God bless those poor people affected by this, I'm afraid some very rich people have got a lot of blood on their soft, dirty hands.
This is a really good, well thought out, reflective post. As have been most of the posts on this thread. "Rule bending", as you put it, is a horrible, last, dangerous practice. If you don't like the rules, do something else or campaign to get them changed; don't just ignore them. And the "not my responsibility" mantra that's so often trotted out is not just irritating, it's dangerous.
The only part of your post, @Carter that I would take issue with is your third paragraph. On first reading, it looked like you're blaming foreigners and I know you're not: in fact you're pretty much doing the opposite.
I hope that, if there are practices that lazy, unethical contractors undertake and have contributed to this tragedy, those practices are stamped out across the industry and those contractors are brought to account.
It would be a tribute to those who have died, those who have lost loved ones, those that are injured and those members of the emergency services affected that the reasons behind this disaster are identified quickly and prevented permanently.
Just spoken to a friend/collegue of mine who attended the incident,its obviously grim and its going to get alot grimmer unfortunately. All the crews there went into the incident at least twice and they rescued people right up to the 24th floor but obviously they couldnt get to everyone on time. He was very choked up so left it there
All who attended the fire are true heroes, surprised they got anyone out of that inferno.
According to BBC Radio London it's kicking off as people getting upset with cameramen poking their cameras in people's faces. One journalist/cameraman got his equipment smashed. Police appear to have sorted it out but can undertstand that locals/relations are upset and angry enough already and don't want the media in their faces.
Just spoken to a friend/collegue of mine who attended the incident,its obviously grim and its going to get alot grimmer unfortunately. All the crews there went into the incident at least twice and they rescued people right up to the 24th floor but obviously they couldnt get to everyone on time. He was very choked up so left it there
All who attended the fire are true heroes, surprised they got anyone out of that inferno.
Amazingly, the fire service rescued 65 people. Brilliant work.
At risk of repeating myself, those of us who are involved in the consequences of the dollar dollar sub it out approach see things like this happening on the horizon. We're called scaremongerers, we don't see the bigger picture (short term financial gain), we worry too much, we're tubthumpers, or the classic I heard not long ago "you'd have us at the mercy of unions and on a 3 day week" which nearly earned the dickhead who said it a black yok.
People have gotten so used to malpractice, to rule bending, to blagging their way out of things, of saying 'not my responsibility' it's accepted and drives me mad. I had to loudly bollock and physically stop someone last week from doing something incredibly dangerous in the middle of a road because, in short, although he was on day rate he was petrified of his 25 year old spreadsheet merchant manager jumping on his back about his performance. The same manager that won't thank him for risking his life and limbs to get a job done. It's not acceptable on day rate or price but once someone is a self employed contractor they are expendable. Nobody will write that down but it's true.
Look at how many big construction projects are chock-full of foreign labour. It's because they are expendable, if I had a pound everytime I've heard someone think they are giving me a home truth by telling me they don't like older/British/unionised/direct labour blokes (delete as appropriate) because they are awkward or slow or expensive as justification why they have brought in 10 Croatian blokes for the cost of 2 british workers, I could retire. They do it because they can essentially bully them and have them working their bollock's off for nothing. Which is not on in my eye's.
God bless those poor people affected by this, I'm afraid some very rich people have got a lot of blood on their soft, dirty hands.
This is a really good, well thought out, reflective post. As have been most of the posts on this thread. "Rule bending", as you put it, is a horrible, last, dangerous practice. If you don't like the rules, do something else or campaign to get them changed; don't just ignore them. And the "not my responsibility" mantra that's so often trotted out is not just irritating, it's dangerous.
The only part of your post, @Carter that I would take issue with is your third paragraph. On first reading, it looked like you're blaming foreigners and I know you're not: in fact you're pretty much doing the opposite.
I hope that, if there are practices that lazy, unethical contractors undertake and have contributed to this tragedy, those practices are stamped out across the industry and those contractors are brought to account.
It would be a tribute to those who have died, those who have lost loved ones, those that are injured and those members of the emergency services affected that the reasons behind this disaster are identified quickly and prevented permanently.
I'm glad you read it the way it was intended, my point regarding foreign labour is and always has been make the playing field level. Using the justification of 'they are cheap' is immoral at best and a step away from advocating slave labour at worst. Maybe if we paid everyone a sensible wage all our lives would improve at the cost of some directors not getting as obscene bonuses for cost cutting and encouraging dangerous practices.
As much as I dislike, in fact detest piers morgan I heard him on the tv this morning giving a director of the firm who carried the renovation work out a good working over (in amongst a lot of idiotic suggestions about parachuting the SAS into a 24 storey burning building) and it proved to those amongst us what we already knew. These people know absolutely nothing about what they are tendering for beyond margins. Scum and I sincerely hope things start to change if not for the memory of these poor people killed then to prevent this and other avoidable tragedies happening again. From the delivery driver falling asleep at the wheel because he only gets paid 20 pence a delivery to the ground worker not cutting his fingers off with a stihlsaw because he's rushing to finish a trench in the middle of a road crossing
Given the fire is still smoldering, my guess is the 12 dead are just those on the street below or at the hospital. God knows what it rises to in a day or two when they search each room.
According to BBC Radio London it's kicking off as people getting upset with cameramen poking their cameras in people's faces. One journalist/cameraman got his equipment smashed. Police appear to have sorted it out but can undertstand that locals/relations are upset and angry enough already and don't want the media in their faces.
I can imagine that; that feeling of being gawped at in their moment of need. They go over the top.
Some people are saying why do we have to specify the religion etc, but isn't the reason linked to Ramadan? ie they were awake for religious reasons which is why they would have played such a role in getting people out of there?
According to BBC Radio London it's kicking off as people getting upset with cameramen poking their cameras in people's faces. One journalist/cameraman got his equipment smashed. Police appear to have sorted it out but can undertstand that locals/relations are upset and angry enough already and don't want the media in their faces.
I can imagine that; that feeling of being gawped at in their moment of need. They go over the top.
We've accepted this though, unintentionally or not, societies appetite for having to know every last gory detail the second it happens has sickeningly become an industry within itself. After every terrorist atrocity there is someone from every single news outlet 'at the scene' it's perverse and goulish.
Twitter, Facebook, YouTube all the social media platforms actually encourage it because it means hits which means there is enough of the morbidly curious amongst us that lap it up.
I'm sure I've told the story on here before but I helped someone who had a seizure/fit on blackfriars road a whole ago and caught someone filming the poor person who was having a pretty shit time of it and launched their phone towards Southwark tube station. They thought it was normal and ok to live stream someone having an episode. That's what 24 hour, up to the second, latest freshest news community has given us.
Given the fire is still smoldering, my guess is the 12 dead are just those on the street below or at the hospital. God knows what it rises to in a day or two when they search each room.
this is what I was thinking unfortunately. I would believe there would be many bodies in the block that will take time to get to. many of which with fire damage will be hard to identify. you can go by records of who lived there but of course there might be people who do not live there but were staying overnight at loved ones.
RIP to all those already lost. such a shit and unexpected way to go. also by the sounds of it, avoidable. still I wait for confirmation on what caused and what bolstered the fire.
Comments
The current policy of 'uni places for all' does devalue my achievement in my eyes and anyone with a policy of 'Free Everything, for Everyone (and even more free if you are in a certain demographic)' doesn't seem to understand that quality is bound to suffer.
People are different and have different skills and should contribute to society in the most appropriate way. ALL politicians should stop trying to meet artificial quotas and sometimes nonsensical targets (ie 'no-one should be in the lower quartile'; 'I want everyone to be above average') otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.
Politicians use cutting "regulations" as an emotive political platform - cut as much as possible regulations and burdens that stand in the way of making even more money. Health & Safety is demonised in some quarters.
They know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.
From my personal experience great care was taken in building projects regarding fire. This covers subjects such as "surface spread of flame" on wall coverings, protection provided by fire doors and intumescent strips on those doors, etc, etc. It is inconceivable to me that such matters were not incorporated in a building such as this or that the London Fire Brigade were not consulted at every stage of the refurb project. (I'd expect any cladding, for example, to have both Class 1 and Class 0 surface spread of flame characteristics. Here's a random firm's explanation scomp.co.uk/fire-ratings/)
Surely, too, the LFB would have had one of its inspectors sign off the building project?
Finally a plea to you all. The ex-LFB in-house fire officer I used to work with told me he would not stay in a hotel until he'd done a complete walk round the building, examining fire exits, etc. (Apparently this used to wind his wife up no end especially if he then refused to stay there!)
I thought he was taking things to extreme, frankly. But his cautious nature regarding fires based upon a lifetime of working with them did rub off on me. I see these days that even holiday villas in Spain are fitted out with fire blankets, warning systems and extinguishers. How many of us can say the same about our own homes?
So, if you've got a few bob spare, before you buy anything else, anything else at all, get yourself a smoke alarm, a carbon monoxide detector, a fire blanket and an extinguisher. If you've still got some money left afterwards, buy an extinguisher for your car too. Maybe if you've a loved one with a birthday coming up or there's an anniversary, bundle this lot up in wrapping paper and show you really care. You know it makes sense.
Knowledge is not a finite resource. Access to it shouldn't, as much as possible, be an accident of birth. There's nothing wrong in working to increase access to education.
Education is related to how people place value on things. It seems to me, more education would help to ensure corners are not cut and lives are not lost in senseless tragedies, such as this.
If I were looking for those things that needed investigating, I would probably start with the efficacy and enforcement of building regulations; how well health and safety laws meet their requirements; whether contracts issued by the local authority were properly negotiated, drawn up and executed; whether there were sufficient fire and rescue personnel available and sufficiently well equipped; what the NHS state of readiness is; what protection is in place for all other council-owned property; to what extent tenants' obligations were being met (occupation numbers; fire exits being kept clear, etc); whether future housing stock is being built with appropriate levels of safety; and what is needed to be done to ensure an event like this is never repeated. Worrying about how many people go to university would be a lot lower on the list.
I know Building Control Officers of my acquaintance are constantly struggling with workloads as a result and of course are always under pressure from developers, etc to sign off on projects "yesterday". I hope that this terrible tragedy is not the result of an inspector/planner cutting corners or not doing their job properly but it would not surprise me.
But @CatAddick has defined the point I was endeavouring to make much better than I could.
Thanks, fellow Lifer.
The emergency services do some awful jobs on behalf of the rest of us. While it is only right that our political representatives give formal thanks on everyone's behalf for your and your colleagues' work, it would be much more to the point if they ensure you and your co-workers have the personnel, equipment, and appropriate financial reward for all you do.
People have gotten so used to malpractice, to rule bending, to blagging their way out of things, of saying 'not my responsibility' it's accepted and drives me mad. I had to loudly bollock and physically stop someone last week from doing something incredibly dangerous in the middle of a road because, in short, although he was on day rate he was petrified of his 25 year old spreadsheet merchant manager jumping on his back about his performance. The same manager that won't thank him for risking his life and limbs to get a job done. It's not acceptable on day rate or price but once someone is a self employed contractor they are expendable. Nobody will write that down but it's true.
Look at how many big construction projects are chock-full of foreign labour. It's because they are expendable, if I had a pound everytime I've heard someone think they are giving me a home truth by telling me they don't like older/British/unionised/direct labour blokes (delete as appropriate) because they are awkward or slow or expensive as justification why they have brought in 10 Croatian blokes for the cost of 2 british workers, I could retire. They do it because they can essentially bully them and have them working their bollock's off for nothing. Which is not on in my eye's.
God bless those poor people affected by this, I'm afraid some very rich people have got a lot of blood on their soft, dirty hands.
I worked for a sister Council to this one and we held up occupation of a Council building by a private company until ALL the issues in the Cause and Effect matrix had been signed off by Building Control.
I wonder ---speculation is only one step from conspiracy theories ! if the pressure to get this project finished meant total occupation BEFORE Building Control sign off --- then further deflected by a contractor using the Year Defects Liability bluff and the BC Officer being swamped ?
One way and another the poor old UK is taking a right battering in the last month !
6 mins for the FB to get there thats top notch response.
The only part of your post, @Carter that I would take issue with is your third paragraph. On first reading, it looked like you're blaming foreigners and I know you're not: in fact you're pretty much doing the opposite.
I hope that, if there are practices that lazy, unethical contractors undertake and have contributed to this tragedy, those practices are stamped out across the industry and those contractors are brought to account.
It would be a tribute to those who have died, those who have lost loved ones, those that are injured and those members of the emergency services affected that the reasons behind this disaster are identified quickly and prevented permanently.
As much as I dislike, in fact detest piers morgan I heard him on the tv this morning giving a director of the firm who carried the renovation work out a good working over (in amongst a lot of idiotic suggestions about parachuting the SAS into a 24 storey burning building) and it proved to those amongst us what we already knew. These people know absolutely nothing about what they are tendering for beyond margins. Scum and I sincerely hope things start to change if not for the memory of these poor people killed then to prevent this and other avoidable tragedies happening again. From the delivery driver falling asleep at the wheel because he only gets paid 20 pence a delivery to the ground worker not cutting his fingers off with a stihlsaw because he's rushing to finish a trench in the middle of a road crossing
Twitter, Facebook, YouTube all the social media platforms actually encourage it because it means hits which means there is enough of the morbidly curious amongst us that lap it up.
I'm sure I've told the story on here before but I helped someone who had a seizure/fit on blackfriars road a whole ago and caught someone filming the poor person who was having a pretty shit time of it and launched their phone towards Southwark tube station. They thought it was normal and ok to live stream someone having an episode. That's what 24 hour, up to the second, latest freshest news community has given us.
RIP to all those already lost. such a shit and unexpected way to go. also by the sounds of it, avoidable. still I wait for confirmation on what caused and what bolstered the fire.