used to be that one just did not f**k with the Germans .. now they are so pc like the rest of spineless Europe that they will probably go very kid gloves on this .. RIP all the victims and rot in whatever hell to the perpetrators
It sounds as if the German authorities have massively fucked up here. Apparently he had been identified as a danger and was under surveillance. He was refused asylum yet allowed to stay temporarily. If this is the guy who did it they will have serious questions to answer.
I don't follow these procedures closely but I understand this is how the UK operates too. Failed applicants can appeal but are not detained, told to present themselves at a later date to find out the outcome of their appeal. A large percentage fail to make that date, simply disappearing.
"A large percentage"? Do you know what proportion disappear? (I don't).
50,000 between 2012 and 2014. With a further 175,000 waiting for removal.
Germany has similar laws to here (though probably not quite as crazy police-state-ish*) in that they can hold suspected terrorists without charge for a certain period. The fact they've released him pretty much immediately means they are all but certain he isn't the guy. But i_b_b_o_r_g thinks it is him, from a 1000 miles away with no access to witnesses, evidence, the crime scene or the suspect, so they should probably hold him for a bit longer.
Do you realise how crazy that sounds? What are you basing your thoughts on that the local police aren't seeing?
*Over the last few years the amount of time the police can hold a suspected terrorists without charging them of anything has steadily risen, can't remember if it's 30 or 45 days currently, but certainly long enough to completely ruin somebodies life without ever having to charge them of any crime, without ever having judicial oversight.
And you think it definitely ain't him from a 1000 miles away?
No, but I trust the local police and special forces on the scene far more than somebody on a Charlton forum. As I said, they have various powers to hold the guy if they thought there was any possibility it was him. Even without special anti-terrorism powers they have the ability to ask a judge to allow them extra time to find evidence before charging the guy. The fact they've released him so quickly without (as far as we know) any attempts to keep him in custody longer would suggest they are certain the guy they actually want is still out there.
What your proposing is that the police should be able to hold people indefinitely when there is no evidence of any wrong-doing, that is an incredibly dangerous amount of power to give to the police and would inevitably lead to abuses of that power.
When did I propose that then?
When you suggested the German's were wrong to release him, despite the complete lack of evidence, because you think he probably did it. Or did you mean, rather non-intuitively, that you completed supported his release due to lack of evidence despite thinking he did it?
No, I said that because they have released him, doesn't mean to say that he wasn't involved, it means that they didn't have enough evidence to hold him.
Then I said that, in my opinion, he probably was involved.
Now, you lot, are having kittens.
Which shows your opinion, on this matter at least, isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Just in case people think it's simply a European problem.
It is mainly though......the solution needs to be global.
Mainly a European problem? You are kidding, right? Look at the number of deaths caused by terrorism world wide, have you heard of Iraq, Syria or Turkey?
Just in case people think it's simply a European problem.
It is mainly though......the solution needs to be global.
Mainly a European problem? You are kidding, right? Look at the number of deaths caused by terrorism world wide, have you heard of Iraq, Syria or Turkey?
A sense of proportion always sadly lacking. Death from terrorism is dwarfed by deaths in conflict which in turn are dwarfed by homicides and then road deaths and then dirty water and insufficient nutrition. Bit like the people transfixed by Palestine but can't see across the map to Yemen or continuing mess in Afghanistan. Simplistic rhetoric appeals to many sadly, problem is they are then led by the nose by people that despise them as much as they need their votes. Until they take their votes away..................
Just in case people think it's simply a European problem.
It is mainly though......the solution needs to be global.
Mainly a European problem? You are kidding, right? Look at the number of deaths caused by terrorism world wide, have you heard of Iraq, Syria or Turkey?
Or Yemen, or Nigeria, or Pakistan, or Afghanistan or Libya...
I have read the Koran (English version). If you want to truly understand Islamic terrorism just pick up a copy for yourself.
I can't be bothered, fancy giving me the gist of it?
It is basically a book which shows the reader how to dominate others by fear/Terror / strict punishments. The most right wing ideology I have ever come across. Not a religious book in any sense of the word. It is Full of Hate for non- Believers/ Gays / Jews / Christians and oppressive towards women. Imho a very dangerous book and the antithesis of Values of Individual Freedom.
Germany has similar laws to here (though probably not quite as crazy police-state-ish*) in that they can hold suspected terrorists without charge for a certain period. The fact they've released him pretty much immediately means they are all but certain he isn't the guy. But i_b_b_o_r_g thinks it is him, from a 1000 miles away with no access to witnesses, evidence, the crime scene or the suspect, so they should probably hold him for a bit longer.
Do you realise how crazy that sounds? What are you basing your thoughts on that the local police aren't seeing?
*Over the last few years the amount of time the police can hold a suspected terrorists without charging them of anything has steadily risen, can't remember if it's 30 or 45 days currently, but certainly long enough to completely ruin somebodies life without ever having to charge them of any crime, without ever having judicial oversight.
And you think it definitely ain't him from a 1000 miles away?
No, but I trust the local police and special forces on the scene far more than somebody on a Charlton forum. As I said, they have various powers to hold the guy if they thought there was any possibility it was him. Even without special anti-terrorism powers they have the ability to ask a judge to allow them extra time to find evidence before charging the guy. The fact they've released him so quickly without (as far as we know) any attempts to keep him in custody longer would suggest they are certain the guy they actually want is still out there.
What your proposing is that the police should be able to hold people indefinitely when there is no evidence of any wrong-doing, that is an incredibly dangerous amount of power to give to the police and would inevitably lead to abuses of that power.
When did I propose that then?
When you suggested the German's were wrong to release him, despite the complete lack of evidence, because you think he probably did it. Or did you mean, rather non-intuitively, that you completed supported his release due to lack of evidence despite thinking he did it?
No, I said that because they have released him, doesn't mean to say that he wasn't involved, it means that they didn't have enough evidence to hold him.
Then I said that, in my opinion, he probably was involved.
Now, you lot, are having kittens.
Which shows your opinion, on this matter at least, isn't worth the paper it's written on.
And your comment on his opinion isn't worth the time to read either it's just a blatant and pointless dig.
Just flashed across in Spain that the 'presumed' suspect has been killed in a shoot out with the pólice. No loss if that was the guy who killed twelve Christmas shoppers in Berlin - would have been handy to take him alive and get some info about his helpers, but to be honest, if that was him, it's nice to know he's gone. RIP his victims.
Just flashed across in Spain that the 'presumed' suspect has been killed in a shoot out with the pólice. No loss if that was the guy who killed twelve Christmas shoppers in Berlin - would have been handy to take him alive and get some info about his helpers, but to be honest, if that was him, it's nice to know he's gone. RIP his victims.
It sounds as if the German authorities have massively fucked up here. Apparently he had been identified as a danger and was under surveillance. He was refused asylum yet allowed to stay temporarily. If this is the guy who did it they will have serious questions to answer.
I don't follow these procedures closely but I understand this is how the UK operates too. Failed applicants can appeal but are not detained, told to present themselves at a later date to find out the outcome of their appeal. A large percentage fail to make that date, simply disappearing.
"A large percentage"? Do you know what proportion disappear? (I don't).
I have read the Koran (English version). If you want to truly understand Islamic terrorism just pick up a copy for yourself.
Available in all good bookshops
I know I agree it's crazy that you can buy it in bookshops. Sometimes we are too tolerant of Intolerance - if that makes sense !
So you believe the Koran should be a proscribed publication?
No it shouldn't. But it should not be afforded a status above any other publication that preaches religious intolerance, racism, homophobia and child abuse simply because it is slavishly followed by 1.6 billion people and considered a 'World Religion'.
I have read the Koran (English version). If you want to truly understand Islamic terrorism just pick up a copy for yourself.
Available in all good bookshops
I know I agree it's crazy that you can buy it in bookshops. Sometimes we are too tolerant of Intolerance - if that makes sense !
If you believe that among the key freedoms that a liberal democracy protects are those of thought and speech (because these are key to a democracy), would you not fall in with the not-quite Voltaire quote of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?
It is the openness of modern democratic European society that the demagoguery of the extremes wish to destroy (whether it is Islamic fundamentalism, or far right or left politics). To ban books is to fatally weaken our defences against the forces arayed against a sane and democratic society; and is the hallmark of those forces, not democracy.
In any event, while the Koran may contain hideously unpeasant verses, so does the Torah and the Bible and, for all that I know the Bhagavad Gita (not sure about the spelling), or any of the myriad holy works of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... Shall we ban all religious books/texts? Why should we, then, stop there? I doubt that, even if the Koran were to be banned, any good would come from that banning.
There is a schism (probably a number) within Islam which postdates the writing of the Koran. The currently visible conflict is couched in terms of Sunni vs Shia, but ignores the variations within both versions of Islam. [I will admit to being in the firmly anti-Salafi/Wahhabi/Deobandi camp, but this does not mean that many (the vast majority, in all likelihood) people following these variants of Islam are in any way dangerous, or violent.]
It's entirely plausible to suggest that, for all the religious trappings associated with Al Qaida and IS, that these are merely the symbolism used for an entirely political project. Their interest is much more about control than it is about religion or belief, the restoration of the Caliphate is at least as much about the recreation of days of purity and glory, and of power over the Middle East and North Africa. Look at any maps of the spread of Islam in the region, and you will see that it was quite stunning.
The argument is attractive to many across the Middle East, in particular, because, unlike the obviously venal and unimportant regimes of today, the popular historical view of the various Caliphates is that of a powerful, wealthy and successful era. Oil may have brought great wealth to some, but it has done little to benefit the wider society and, in many ways, is seen to have weakened it in many aspects.
It's most similar to the fascist and Nazi ideologies, with the difference being that the purity in this case is not racial but religious. If the rise of populism and the alt/far right can be seen, in part, as a reaction against feelings of disenfranchisement and disengagement among swathes of ordinary people across Europe and the United States, should we be surprised that, with a longer history of disenfranchisement, the same thing has happened elsewhere?
If we simply view the fundamentalist terror movement as Islamic, we will fail to understand and (I worry) probably, defeat it. In fact, if we paint it as Islamic, without thought, we will probably do much of the PR work for Al Qaida and IS. It is a fact that is often repeated, but needs to continue to be repeated, that the overwhelming majority of the victims of Islmic terrorism are followers of Islam - while IS delight in killing Shia and associated sects, it is equally if not more important for them to eliminate the many Sunni who do not share their world view.
I want these terrorists defeated and, as far as is possible, brought to justice; but I want that for all terrorists.
Comments
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/22/asia/australia-police-thwart-terrorist-attack/index.html?adkey=bn&sr=twcnni122316australia-police-thwart-terrorist-attack1212AMStoryLink&linkId=32691185
Just in case people think it's simply a European problem.
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-29/50-000-failed-asylum-seekers-have-gone-missing-in-the-uk-since-2012-report-finds/
RIP his victims.
It really isn't a European issue, if you genuinely think that's the case, then you need to broaden where on get your news from.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_linked_to_ISIL
Throughout these attacks, an ID card or passport is found. Surely not right?
Apparently Found in the cab on the lorry after they released the inocent guy
what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?
It is the openness of modern democratic European society that the demagoguery of the extremes wish to destroy (whether it is Islamic fundamentalism, or far right or left politics). To ban books is to fatally weaken our defences against the forces arayed against a sane and democratic society; and is the hallmark of those forces, not democracy.
In any event, while the Koran may contain hideously unpeasant verses, so does the Torah and the Bible and, for all that I know the Bhagavad Gita (not sure about the spelling), or any of the myriad holy works of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... Shall we ban all religious books/texts? Why should we, then, stop there? I doubt that, even if the Koran were to be banned, any good would come from that banning.
There is a schism (probably a number) within Islam which postdates the writing of the Koran. The currently visible conflict is couched in terms of Sunni vs Shia, but ignores the variations within both versions of Islam. [I will admit to being in the firmly anti-Salafi/Wahhabi/Deobandi camp, but this does not mean that many (the vast majority, in all likelihood) people following these variants of Islam are in any way dangerous, or violent.]
It's entirely plausible to suggest that, for all the religious trappings associated with Al Qaida and IS, that these are merely the symbolism used for an entirely political project. Their interest is much more about control than it is about religion or belief, the restoration of the Caliphate is at least as much about the recreation of days of purity and glory, and of power over the Middle East and North Africa. Look at any maps of the spread of Islam in the region, and you will see that it was quite stunning.
The argument is attractive to many across the Middle East, in particular, because, unlike the obviously venal and unimportant regimes of today, the popular historical view of the various Caliphates is that of a powerful, wealthy and successful era. Oil may have brought great wealth to some, but it has done little to benefit the wider society and, in many ways, is seen to have weakened it in many aspects.
It's most similar to the fascist and Nazi ideologies, with the difference being that the purity in this case is not racial but religious. If the rise of populism and the alt/far right can be seen, in part, as a reaction against feelings of disenfranchisement and disengagement among swathes of ordinary people across Europe and the United States, should we be surprised that, with a longer history of disenfranchisement, the same thing has happened elsewhere?
If we simply view the fundamentalist terror movement as Islamic, we will fail to understand and (I worry) probably, defeat it. In fact, if we paint it as Islamic, without thought, we will probably do much of the PR work for Al Qaida and IS. It is a fact that is often repeated, but needs to continue to be repeated, that the overwhelming majority of the victims of Islmic terrorism are followers of Islam - while IS delight in killing Shia and associated sects, it is equally if not more important for them to eliminate the many Sunni who do not share their world view.
I want these terrorists defeated and, as far as is possible, brought to justice; but I want that for all terrorists.