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How do we defeat ISIS?

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  • Leuth said:

    One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
    Cabinet Office Briefing Room Alpha
  • LuckyReds said:

    Leuth said:

    One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
    I think the point was, since 2005 the Security Services have done a cracking job of preventing any of the threats from being realised. So it's difficult to say that you've been "severely impacted" today by "dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London".
    So since 2005 I, along with all the other UK taxpayers, have had to pay millions and millions of pounds to prevent religious terrorists killing people in the UK. How am I not affected everyday by the use of my tax payments to fund this activity rather than say the NHS?
  • edited July 2016

    LuckyReds said:

    Leuth said:

    One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
    I think the point was, since 2005 the Security Services have done a cracking job of preventing any of the threats from being realised. So it's difficult to say that you've been "severely impacted" today by "dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London".
    So since 2005 I, along with all the other UK taxpayers, have had to pay millions and millions of pounds to prevent religious terrorists killing people in the UK. How am I not affected everyday by the use of my tax payments to fund this activity rather than say the NHS?
    Thats a very tenous link, and arguably stretching the "severely impacted" aspect of the question.

    That said, it is a daily impact of sorts and I can respect those priorities; and yes that money could be spent elsewhere.

    Unfortunately I don't share your optimism that there wouldn't simply be another threat if it wasn't currently Islamists. There are bad people in the world, its as simple as that - religion can be wielded as a very powerful tool for bad people to convince others to do as they wish. For others it could be money, fame or pride - for Islamists it's the promise of a future paradise.
  • edited July 2016

    LuckyReds said:

    I have been saying for years that we need to develop renewable energy sources. Not just because they are green but because the countries where we buy our gas, oil and even coal supplies are different degrees of evil.

    From Saudi and the Middle East through some of North Africa and up into Russia and the former Soviet Union states and then on to China and Venezuela. What one of those countries isn't corrupt? Which one has democracy or even a benign dictatorship? Which of them are known for their equal treatment of women and LGBT? Which of them have a free justice system or a free press?

    Successive governments Tory, New Labour and Coalition have continued to turn a blind eye by trading with regimes that routinely do things that our electorate find abhorrent, it is now (predictably) turning round and biting us on the arse. If they can do shit to their own people they sure as hell can do it to us.

    By buying their stuff we are backing their regimes, a start would be to stop funding them ourselves.

    If you took fossil fuels out of the equation, we would never be seen trading and supporting those regimes. Unfortunately, they literally make our lives go around in the West.

    I've been busting my balls for the last 48 hours working on a proposal for a firm that's work is heavily based around Iranian Oil production; and during our initial conversations I was given what was essentially a crash-course in Iran's oil production, historic sanctions and the current situation. I'd never really paid much attention to it until this week, and I've been left a bit stunned at just how low our "civilised" countries will go in their quests for oil, all under the guise of "diplomacy" and "trade".

    We may have blood on our hands in Iraq, but we have blood on our hands in many more places thanks to our need for Oil.
    Indeed, if you take a look at Iran (odious though many in the hierarchy of that country may be) they have more reason than most to distrust the West; but, because they are mostly Shia, we may actually come to rely on them more.

    There are some Middle Eastern countries that are mostly or even partly democratic, or ruled by monarchs/dictators who are not utterly odious, but not many (Lebanon, Tunisia, Morocco, I would almost say Iran, because it has a democracy of sorts, but the Mullahs have too much power). And I am not suggesting for one instant that they are not in some way corrupt.

    However, in many ways, we are reaping what we have sown. In our support, for reasons of geopolitics and need for oil, of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and their ilk, we have encouraged the rise of fundamentalist Wahhabist Sunni Islam. The House of Saud depends entirely on Wahhabism, and so strengthens it within Saudia Arabia and exports it worldwide - look at mosques and schools built and preachers trained (across the world) with Saudi money, and ask yourself how likely are they to produce liberally minded individuals. Was it surprising that, when Merkel and Germany offered to welcome Syrian refugees, the only Saudi offer was to build mosques? Look at the disasters that have befallen Afghanistan/Pakistan, where the Saudi influence met its perfect match in the equally austere Deobandi tradition.

    100 years ago, the Wahhabists were the fringe of Sunni Islam, easily outmatched by others (such as Sufis) that we would dearly wish to have in power across the Middle East today. But now it is the fundamentalist, literal interpretation of Wahhabism that dominates the online and satellite television fora across the Arabic/Islamist world.

    The disaffected youth, whether in the Middle East or in Europe, who fall under its spell, and become radicalised are often not good Muslims, in that they may have dabbled in drugs, alcohol and petty crime. Look even at the wealthy young men involved in the attacks on 9/11, were they conspicuously abiding by the teachings of their religion? Most reports indicate that they then find, in a twisted version of Islam, a certainty and a purpose that the rest of their lives cannot provide - the rise of fascism in the 1920s and 1930s would suggest that the allure of a simplistic, if hate filled, world view is not limited only to young Muslim men.

    Anyway, we have supported utterly appalling regimes across the Middle East for generations, for reasons that do little to support our notions of having some sort of superior moral compass. Most tragically, we allowed the Arab Spring, when the youth of the Arab world rose up against such regimes, to be whittled away, either by looking in the other direction, or by actively supporting repression (as in Bahrain and Egypt). Where we (as in the West) did intervene against a regime, we did just enough to encourage a descent into chaos, but nowhere near enough to help bring about any kind of reasonable solution.

    If we really want to address the rise of violent and nihilistic fundamentalist Islam, we must be pepared for a long haul, of supporting moderate voices, and moving away from our traditional backing for the corrupt, venal elites. We should look to the countries that have the greatest chance of becoming what we would like them to be (assuming we mean liberal democracies) and support them. Let us help Tunisia, Lebanon, et al, be successful economically and socially and that will provide our most potent weapon in the Middle East. In the banlieues of France and across Europe, we need to find ways of giving young people hope and increase their feeling of belonging, and, yes, we need to educate, but we also need to find ways to support moderate voices in Muslim communities as well.

    None of this is cheap, it's certainly more expensive than dropping bombs, and could well take many years. Dealing with the root causes requires a long term plan and a willingness to follow Robin Cook's idea of an ethical foreign policy. I won't hold my breath.

    Sorry, it's a bit of a rant and, in all honesty, I'm not really sure that there is an easy solution - because we can destroy ISIS, but something else will rise up in its place (like Al Shabaab grew out of the Islamic Courts in Somalia).

    Agree with you entirely Norn, but to prove my point the three countries you list as having reasonable governments (Lebanon, Tunisia, Morocco) are not countries we buy gas, oil or coal from. Therefore their governments have been able to evolve over time as they have not been propped up my money and the vested interests that want the money/commodities.
  • edited July 2016
    Posting without reading but defeating ISIS should be relatively straightforward given they're not even Oxford University's best boat crew.

    Moreover how much damage can eight really big blokes (and one little one) do?
  • I have Muslim friends and I don't have any phobias about them! Fundamentalism is the issue.
  • edited July 2016
    I have Muslim neighbours and many Muslim friends who are ex work colleagues including a London born son of Irish parents who converted to Islam 20 years ago. I have always had vigorous debates and exchanges of view about the nature of Islam and its place in the secular western world with them. Do I have a phobia about having one of those debates with one of those friends in a cafe in Bangladesh? Absolutely!
  • That's very different to what you said earlier.
  • Getting back on track.

    This is a good analysis on what is going on (I know some won't click on it because of the website but it is a well balanced piece): https://theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/why-does-france-keep-getting-attacked

    A couple of points that stood out for me. This isn't new to France (granted the scale might be) but there were attacks by Islamic extremists in the 90s that many have forgotten about (including myself). Also the paragraphs about the growing gulf between rich and poor and the typical profile of an attacker. Seems very familiar and it's something our country really should be addressing.
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  • colthe3rd said:

    Getting back on track.

    This is a good analysis on what is going on (I know some won't click on it because of the website but it is a well balanced piece): https://theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/why-does-france-keep-getting-attacked

    A couple of points that stood out for me. This isn't new to France (granted the scale might be) but there were attacks by Islamic extremists in the 90s that many have forgotten about (including myself). Also the paragraphs about the growing gulf between rich and poor and the typical profile of an attacker. Seems very familiar and it's something our country really should be addressing.

    The guardian and blaming the rich and poor gulf, not heard that one before!

    Why does France keep getting attacked? There's more Muslims in France and growing.
  • edited July 2016
    Interesting article. The point that leaps out at me is that the French only started really recruiting spies/informants from within the Muslim communities in late 2014. In the UK many attacks have been prevented because MI5 have been running paid informants within all the Muslim communities in the country for many years now. It always amazes me the number of times it emerges that MI5 tried to recruit a terrorist suspect sometime in the past. One of the people involved in the Woolwich attack had been approched in the past by MI5. I am convinced we have literally thousands of these informants and they are a significant factor in why so many attacks have been prevented in the last 10 years.
  • Interesting article. The point that leaps out at me is that the French only started really recruiting spies/informants from within the Muslim communities in late 2014. In the UK many attacks have been prevented because MI5 have been running paid informants within all the Muslim communities in the country for many years now. It always amazes me the number of times it emerges that MI5 tried to recruit a terrorist suspect sometime in the past. One of the people involved in the Woolwich attack had been approched in the past by MI5. I am convinced we have literally thousands of these informants and they are a significant factor in why so many attacks have been prevented in the last 10 years.

    Nice catch. 2014 seems incredibly late, 13 years post-9/11 and 9 years post-7/7?!

    It doesn't say too much for their Security Service.
  • I have Muslim neighbours and many Muslim friends who are ex work colleagues including a London born son of Irish parents who converted to Islam 20 years ago. I have always had vigorous debates and exchanges of view about the nature of Islam and its place in the secular western world with them. Do I have a phobia about having one of those debates with one of those friends in a cafe in Bangladesh? Absolutely!

    Have you told them that you've branded them as one of the 1.6bn misguided fools on Charlton Life?
  • edited July 2016
    cabbles said:



    I have Muslim neighbours and many Muslim friends who are ex work colleagues including a London born son of Irish parents who converted to Islam 20 years ago. I have always had vigorous debates and exchanges of view about the nature of Islam and its place in the secular western world with them. Do I have a phobia about having one of those debates with one of those friends in a cafe in Bangladesh? Absolutely!

    Have you told them that you've branded them as one of the 1.6bn misguided fools on Charlton Life?
    Tbf I've got an Arsenal mate who believes he's gonna win the title every year, I tell him he's a misguided fool. I'd same the same to a Muslim mate if I had one*. If he couldn't handle that then he wouldn't be my mate in the first place.

    *about his beliefs, not that he'll never win the premier league.
  • One thing is for sure, we won't rid the world of ISIS continuing with the same approach that allowed it to grow in the first place. You don't put a fire out by throwing petrol on it! What we should do in my opinion is adopt a novel (for the west) approach of not intervening. The twin towers attack was designed to encourage retaliation as extremists knew that intervention would propel the rise of their beliefs and further interventions sustain it.

    Firstly, in Syria we are confused about who our enemy is. This is providing a vacuum that actually helps ISIS. We have to hold our noses, but the answer is to stop supporting the jihadist-led Syrian insurgency and stop supporting the regional allies (Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc) that are also supporting it. The solution to destroying ISIS in the region is going to come from the Syrian regime that America has been stupidly trying to overthrow.

    America should stop supporting the sectarian Shi’ite government in Iraq and force Baghdad to compromise with the Iraqi Sunnis they have been brutally persecuting for a decade. Whilst ISIS has Sunni origins, the Sunni tribes do not necessarily support them and by taking away a bigger reason to fight, the Sunni tribes would be more likely to turn against ISIS as they did in 2006. This will give the terrorists fleeing Syria nowhere to run.

    The West should stop directly bombing Syria and Iraq. These attacks massacre civilians, and thereby only strengthen ISIS. Society is as a result, weakened and less capable of resisting the hardened extremists. Plus, more Muslim youth are thus radicalized by atrocity and more susceptible to extremist recruitment. ISIS wants us to attack it. Why haven't any of our leaders understood that it is best not to do what your enemy wants you to.

    The Middle East has loads of problems, but western intervention there never ends well. Why not try not intervening!

    Spot on, but you aren't going to make any friends hereabouts.
  • edited July 2016
    cabbles said:



    I have Muslim neighbours and many Muslim friends who are ex work colleagues including a London born son of Irish parents who converted to Islam 20 years ago. I have always had vigorous debates and exchanges of view about the nature of Islam and its place in the secular western world with them. Do I have a phobia about having one of those debates with one of those friends in a cafe in Bangladesh? Absolutely!

    Have you told them that you've branded them as one of the 1.6bn misguided fools on Charlton Life?
    I can honestly say I have more than once stated that view to my neighbour and the bloke who converted 20 years ago. I have often been called a mis guided opinionated idiot by people to my face. I don't take offence and neither do they.
  • LuckyReds said:

    LuckyReds said:

    Leuth said:

    One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
    I think the point was, since 2005 the Security Services have done a cracking job of preventing any of the threats from being realised. So it's difficult to say that you've been "severely impacted" today by "dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London".
    So since 2005 I, along with all the other UK taxpayers, have had to pay millions and millions of pounds to prevent religious terrorists killing people in the UK. How am I not affected everyday by the use of my tax payments to fund this activity rather than say the NHS?
    Thats a very tenous link, and arguably stretching the "severely impacted" aspect of the question.

    That said, it is a daily impact of sorts and I can respect those priorities; and yes that money could be spent elsewhere.

    Unfortunately I don't share your optimism that there wouldn't simply be another threat if it wasn't currently Islamists. There are bad people in the world, its as simple as that - religion can be wielded as a very powerful tool for bad people to convince others to do as they wish. For others it could be money, fame or pride - for Islamists it's the promise of a future paradise.
    Do you seriously think that 'others' in pursuit of money,fame or pride could wreak the same ubiquitous murder and barbarity that Islamism is spewing all over the globe, not only on the West,but also on their fellow Muslims?

    Come off it.
  • Redskin said:

    LuckyReds said:

    LuckyReds said:

    Leuth said:

    One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
    I think the point was, since 2005 the Security Services have done a cracking job of preventing any of the threats from being realised. So it's difficult to say that you've been "severely impacted" today by "dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London".
    So since 2005 I, along with all the other UK taxpayers, have had to pay millions and millions of pounds to prevent religious terrorists killing people in the UK. How am I not affected everyday by the use of my tax payments to fund this activity rather than say the NHS?
    Thats a very tenous link, and arguably stretching the "severely impacted" aspect of the question.

    That said, it is a daily impact of sorts and I can respect those priorities; and yes that money could be spent elsewhere.

    Unfortunately I don't share your optimism that there wouldn't simply be another threat if it wasn't currently Islamists. There are bad people in the world, its as simple as that - religion can be wielded as a very powerful tool for bad people to convince others to do as they wish. For others it could be money, fame or pride - for Islamists it's the promise of a future paradise.
    Do you seriously think that 'others' in pursuit of money,fame or pride could wreak the same ubiquitous murder and barbarity that Islamism is spewing all over the globe, not only on the West,but also on their fellow Muslims?

    Come off it.
    In the name of power every bloc, West, East, secular and religious has slaughtered innocents to achieve their aim.
  • Redskin said:

    LuckyReds said:

    LuckyReds said:

    Leuth said:

    One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
    I think the point was, since 2005 the Security Services have done a cracking job of preventing any of the threats from being realised. So it's difficult to say that you've been "severely impacted" today by "dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London".
    So since 2005 I, along with all the other UK taxpayers, have had to pay millions and millions of pounds to prevent religious terrorists killing people in the UK. How am I not affected everyday by the use of my tax payments to fund this activity rather than say the NHS?
    Thats a very tenous link, and arguably stretching the "severely impacted" aspect of the question.

    That said, it is a daily impact of sorts and I can respect those priorities; and yes that money could be spent elsewhere.

    Unfortunately I don't share your optimism that there wouldn't simply be another threat if it wasn't currently Islamists. There are bad people in the world, its as simple as that - religion can be wielded as a very powerful tool for bad people to convince others to do as they wish. For others it could be money, fame or pride - for Islamists it's the promise of a future paradise.
    Do you seriously think that 'others' in pursuit of money,fame or pride could wreak the same ubiquitous murder and barbarity that Islamism is spewing all over the globe, not only on the West,but also on their fellow Muslims?

    Come off it.
    communism, fascism, power, christianity, nazism, freedom, democracy. Take your pick, all of these have caused greater havoc and loss of life than modern islamist terrorism.
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  • There is no way to end this
  • edited July 2016


    communism, fascism, power, christianity, nazism, freedom, democracy. Take your pick, all of these have caused greater havoc and loss of life than modern islamist terrorism.
    We're talking about the present and a specific, not the past and a bunch of nebulous ideologies.

  • LuckyReds said:

    And lastly, and most controversially, admit that the problem is primarily found in a specific part of our population.

    I like the thoughts of "Maajid Nawaz" on this, he ran off to fight in Bosnia to defend the Muslims during the Yugoslav war. He knows about extremism and has had his own tough story. He now runs a counter-extremism think-tank.

    If you consistently deny that these issues are more prevalent in the Muslim community, and are actively furthered using propaganda based around the Islamic faith, then you can't defeat the problem. Admit it, These terrorists are Muslims is a very good article he wrote on this topic, I'd fully advise you to read it (and think about his background) before you hit the "Flag" button.

    The Muslim community needs to actively be involved in this, and that is going to mean no more "He wasn't a real Muslim" responses.

    PWR beyond this because I thought your two posts were very well thought out and insightful.

    Going to link this here as well, as it makes a similar case about whether or not ISIS are "real Muslims." Theirs is an ideology deeply rooted in the fundamental, literal interpretations of the Q'uran.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

    That said, I don't know that anyone denies that this is a problem that is almost exclusively Muslim. I think it's more of an issue of "this is a very, very, very, very small percentage of the Muslim population." You make a great point in your other post about integration, and as I've said before I don't think it's a coincidence that almost all of the attackers fall into the young men in their 20s/30s with a petty crime past of history without stable employment who are second generation immigrants and who have become dissatisfied with society.
  • There is no way to end this

    4-3-1-2

    Ceballos in the hole
  • shine166 said:

    Travel back a decade and don't take out saddam

    Or go back a bit further and get Tony Blair's old man to pull out early!
  • Redskin said:

    LuckyReds said:

    LuckyReds said:

    Leuth said:

    One thing that hasn't happened since 2005, one that won't happen ever and one that's happening in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps you could save the tax payers a lot of money and make your services available to the new prime minister and the Cobra group and assure them the terrorist threat in the UK since 2005 is actually non existent rather than very high for the last 10 years.
    I think the point was, since 2005 the Security Services have done a cracking job of preventing any of the threats from being realised. So it's difficult to say that you've been "severely impacted" today by "dis-engaged, slightly deranged young Muslim men living in London".
    So since 2005 I, along with all the other UK taxpayers, have had to pay millions and millions of pounds to prevent religious terrorists killing people in the UK. How am I not affected everyday by the use of my tax payments to fund this activity rather than say the NHS?
    Thats a very tenous link, and arguably stretching the "severely impacted" aspect of the question.

    That said, it is a daily impact of sorts and I can respect those priorities; and yes that money could be spent elsewhere.

    Unfortunately I don't share your optimism that there wouldn't simply be another threat if it wasn't currently Islamists. There are bad people in the world, its as simple as that - religion can be wielded as a very powerful tool for bad people to convince others to do as they wish. For others it could be money, fame or pride - for Islamists it's the promise of a future paradise.
    Do you seriously think that 'others' in pursuit of money,fame or pride could wreak the same ubiquitous murder and barbarity that Islamism is spewing all over the globe, not only on the West,but also on their fellow Muslims?

    Come off it.
    communism, fascism, power, christianity, nazism, freedom, democracy. Take your pick, all of these have caused greater havoc and loss of life than modern islamist terrorism.
    Yeah, the clue is the word you've used, "modern". We are concerned about now, the present, not how bad the naughty Christians were in 1076!
  • shine166 said:

    Travel back a decade and don't take out saddam

    Or go back a bit further and get Tony Blair's old man to pull out early!
    Or go back even further than that and get Muhammad's dad to pull out early!
  • shine166 said:

    Travel back a decade and don't take out saddam

    Or go back a bit further and get Tony Blair's old man to pull out early!
    Or go back even further than that and get Muhammad's dad to pull out early!
    If only Amen-Ra hadn't had a wank.
  • People are not very nice. Watch your back is good advice.
  • Many people are quite nice. Maybe even most people.
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