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How do we defeat ISIS?

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    cabbles said:

    It can't be defeated until mankind grows out of the need to believe in the nonsense that is religion.

    People do believe in religion and live perfectly peaceful lives without harming others. What may be utter nonsense to you, actually means a great deal to billions of people across this planet, and would try to use their religion as a vehicle for peace.

    I understand that religion has the power to incite and be used in the wrong way when being taught by those that try to interpret it for their own benefit, but that is an utterly nonsense post
    A lot of people in the world believe in astrology. Clearly astrology is complete nonsense. Educated people have every right, indeed duty, to judge it as nonsense while at the same time allowing people who allow astrology to inform how they live their lives to continue to do so so long as it harms nobody else. Educated people have the same right, indeed duty, too judge all religions as utter nonsense. The day I am afraid to judge nonsense as nonsense is the day I wake up in Bangladesh, Iran or Saudi Arabia; or the day the free world has completely failed and this fucked up cancer of a religion that is called Islam finally takes over the whole world.
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    edited July 2016

    To crush it militarily you have to deprive it of it's money and let the Syrians and Russians sort them out. You need to then focus all your efforts at fighting radicalism at home.

    Trouble is its who controls the oil fields... We've all proven that we cant live without it anymore so we have to pay Saudi Arabia to get our fair share (Else EVERYTHING will just ground to a halt here)... the Saudis are then able to pay whoever they want including bank rolling ISIS - Its always going to be just one vicious cycle
    We're in bed with a very nasty regime with regards to Saudi Arabia, we sell them weapons and we trade with them... but we know full well that the real source of the issue lies within their domain. Naturally, we let our interests lay above that of the stability of the region and simply turn a blind eye. Similarly, Turkey weren't so concerned about ISIS when it looked as though they were going to wipe their Kurdish problem out.. once again though, "diplomacy" trumps "decency".

    On the other hand, Russia could supply our Oil.. but they're another country we're not too keen to be reliant on, understandably. Plus as a member of the EU we have sanctions against them. So perhaps Russia isn't the best option either. Which leaves Iran, who coincidentally no longer have any sanctions against the trade of their oil.. but we've hardly been on the best terms with them either.

    The crux of it is very simple: the sooner we're no longer reliant on fossil fuels the better, until then we're stuck.
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    cabbles said:

    cabbles said:

    It can't be defeated until mankind grows out of the need to believe in the nonsense that is religion.

    People do believe in religion and live perfectly peaceful lives without harming others. What may be utter nonsense to you, actually means a great deal to billions of people across this planet, and would try to use their religion as a vehicle for peace.

    I understand that religion has the power to incite and be used in the wrong way when being taught by those that try to interpret it for their own benefit, but that is an utterly nonsense post
    It's a fairy tale.

    No other concept that has caused so much harm and is patently rubbish and is perpetuated only because it's a hangover from more unlightened times would be tolerated without the ridicule it deserves. It's held back mankinds freedom to think for millennia. I'm glad to say that eventually man will wake up and consign this controlling claptrap to the dustbin of history.

    It might be a fairytale to you but as I said in my last post, billions of others may see it differently.

    I'm a very big fan of science, a lot of what I read is based around theoretical and astro physics and how and where the universe came from. I completely understand where you are coming from with respect to how religion has held back free thought for a number of years.

    However to simply state that if we do away with believing in religion then all this shit that is happening in the world will somehow disappear with it, was wide of the mark for me. Also unfair to those that choose to believe in it without using it as a vehicle for personal gain
    Religion is divisive. Sect v sect is the world norm and mankind being mankind the whole concept is subject to manipulative chancers and they are also the norm.

    This sounds arrogant but I don't respect people's right to believe any more than I respect the rights of a holocaust denier or flat earther to hold those views.

    My arrogance continues in so far as I completely lose some respect for anyone who has religion.



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    Daggs said:

    Some people are willing to murder other people because they believe a great god in the sky wants them to do so.
    If we could convince them there is no great god in the sky, perhaps, just perhaps, we could heal our differences.
    Stop teaching religion in schools. Close all religious schools. Educate all pupils side by side. Kids that grow up together, will be far more likely to live together in peace.

    I totally agree but the irony is that in France education is secular.

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    I didn't know that SHG.
    I was thinking about education here in the UK.
    But even if my policy was adopted tomorrow. It would still take (probably) twenty five years to come to fruition.
    There are millions of humans who have been indoctrinated with the poison of religion. It won't fade away quickly.
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    edited July 2016

    To crush it militarily you have to deprive it of it's money and let the Syrians and Russians sort them out. You need to then focus all your efforts at fighting radicalism at home.

    Money is the key, you're 110% correct. The resources that ISIS seem to have gained are ridiculous.

    The problem with Russian involvement is a combination of their tactics - which seem to amount to indiscriminate bombing with cluster munitions - and their ultimate goal of propping up Assad's regime, even if it means taking out the moderate opposition who are merely fighting for a life without fear. It's also worth mentioning Russia are likely to get a very useful strategic presence in the region too, and a more stable ally who will purchase their weapons.. weapons which will be worth far more when they've been proven in battle! Alas, that's the dreaded "diplomacy" word again..

    As much as it sounds like I'm complaining about Russia though, let's be honest - our attempt at helping the moderates to overthrow Assad has really fucked up. At least Russia has the common sense to pick a winner and provide a real effort at overpowering the opposition.

    For all of our "nicer" munitions that are more accurate and less likely to introduce collateral damage, I can't help but think only Russia has the backbone to commit and see this kind of campaign through. Unfortunately the Russians are not known for doing things nicely though.
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    I would close all religious schools for many reasons, but you can't ban religion. And most religious people - almost all of them, are not extremists. If you look back in history, non religious people can do extreme things too!
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    Daggs said:

    Some people are willing to murder other people because they believe a great god in the sky wants them to do so.
    If we could convince them there is no great god in the sky, perhaps, just perhaps, we could heal our differences.
    Stop teaching religion in schools. Close all religious schools. Educate all pupils side by side. Kids that grow up together, will be far more likely to live together in peace.

    Its why in a sense that History needs to be completely forgotten and eradicated from schools.

    We talk about World War I and World War II being events that should never be forgotten yet all these events just create lasting hate, yet why should they... I wasnt around when this happened why should I hate a German or a Frenchman (for the 100-years war or Napoleonic Wars) for what our ancestors did... This is our time
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    Always believed in God and always will-----its a personal thing to me---i have no religion and never will.

    Cults exist when a vuccum in peoples lives are exploited----we are watching a death cult latched onto a perverted definition of Islam.
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    I'm not banning religion. I'm banning the teaching of it in school. In the hope it will hasten it's demise.
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    The West has helped create the problem in the Middle East and the Saudis have helped bankroll the terrorist threat. Closer to home any disaffected Muslim youth will look to Isis as a way out of their boring life spurred on by any lunatic preacher they happen to encounter. The more divided the country the more likely a attack - we must be due a turn.
    If you have an 'enemy within' you need the Muslim community to turn people in - will this happen?
    However good your intelligence is if the society is so divided it's a massive problem. The worst possible reaction is having a nutter like Trump fanning the flames with knee-jerk reactions.
    You need to understand an enemy to beat them - simply painting them as evil is too simplistic. There is no consistency in Western foreign policy which adds to the problem.
    The lunatic right in the UK and the US offer no solutions and just mirror the radical Muslim preachers who preach mindless hatred and violence. Sadly people seem attracted to such simplistic dialogue which is just too black and white.
    Blair and Bush helped create a lot of this.
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    A

    Daggs said:

    Some people are willing to murder other people because they believe a great god in the sky wants them to do so.
    If we could convince them there is no great god in the sky, perhaps, just perhaps, we could heal our differences.
    Stop teaching religion in schools. Close all religious schools. Educate all pupils side by side. Kids that grow up together, will be far more likely to live together in peace.

    Its why in a sense that History needs to be completely forgotten and eradicated from schools.

    We talk about World War I and World War II being events that should never be forgotten yet all these events just create lasting hate, yet why should they... I wasnt around when this happened why should I hate a German or a Frenchman (for the 100-years war or Napoleonic Wars) for what our ancestors did... This is our time
    Is this going over my head? Are you seriously suggesting the teaching of history makes kids hate the subjects of that history? Apologies if this is satire, but if not, how do you make this so? Such a dangerous view.
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    Daggs said:

    Some people are willing to murder other people because they believe a great god in the sky wants them to do so.
    If we could convince them there is no great god in the sky, perhaps, just perhaps, we could heal our differences.
    Stop teaching religion in schools. Close all religious schools. Educate all pupils side by side. Kids that grow up together, will be far more likely to live together in peace.

    Its why in a sense that History needs to be completely forgotten and eradicated from schools.

    We talk about World War I and World War II being events that should never be forgotten yet all these events just create lasting hate, yet why should they... I wasnt around when this happened why should I hate a German or a Frenchman (for the 100-years war or Napoleonic Wars) for what our ancestors did... This is our time
    You cannot forget your history, as a Charlton supporter you must know that.

    Remembering the fallen in WW1 and WW2 is not asking you to hate the Germans.
    It's asking you to remember the sacrifice made for your (and everyones) freedom.
    I've been to Ypres (where my Grandfather died) I've seen the scale of the cemetaries. I defy anyone seeing that to hold back the tears.
    It becomes no easier knowing there are just as many dead Germans buried elsewhere.
    Their families mourned just as did ours. War is a tragedy wherever and whenever it takes place.
    I just believe if we removed religion from the human physcy, we would be on the way to peace.
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    I have been saying for years that we need to develop renewable energy sources. Not just because they are green but because the countries where we buy our gas, oil and even coal supplies are different degrees of evil.

    From Saudi and the Middle East through some of North Africa and up into Russia and the former Soviet Union states and then on to China and Venezuela. What one of those countries isn't corrupt? Which one has democracy or even a benign dictatorship? Which of them are known for their equal treatment of women and LGBT? Which of them have a free justice system or a free press?

    Successive governments Tory, New Labour and Coalition have continued to turn a blind eye by trading with regimes that routinely do things that our electorate find abhorrent, it is now (predictably) turning round and biting us on the arse. If they can do shit to their own people they sure as hell can do it to us.

    By buying their stuff we are backing their regimes, a start would be to stop funding them ourselves.
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    Daggs said:

    Some people are willing to murder other people because they believe a great god in the sky wants them to do so.
    If we could convince them there is no great god in the sky, perhaps, just perhaps, we could heal our differences.
    Stop teaching religion in schools. Close all religious schools. Educate all pupils side by side. Kids that grow up together, will be far more likely to live together in peace.

    I totally agree but the irony is that in France education is secular.

    France like the UK is a very divided and unequal society - add religion into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster. Not sure how you get rid of religion - too many people have a vested interest in it.
    Anything can be justified in the name of religion -genocide,racism,homophobia,misogyny- as long as your prophets have okayed it. Rational argument goes out of the window.
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    edited July 2016
    Daggs said:

    Daggs said:

    Some people are willing to murder other people because they believe a great god in the sky wants them to do so.
    If we could convince them there is no great god in the sky, perhaps, just perhaps, we could heal our differences.
    Stop teaching religion in schools. Close all religious schools. Educate all pupils side by side. Kids that grow up together, will be far more likely to live together in peace.

    Its why in a sense that History needs to be completely forgotten and eradicated from schools.

    We talk about World War I and World War II being events that should never be forgotten yet all these events just create lasting hate, yet why should they... I wasnt around when this happened why should I hate a German or a Frenchman (for the 100-years war or Napoleonic Wars) for what our ancestors did... This is our time
    You cannot forget your history, as a Charlton supporter you must know that.

    Remembering the fallen in WW1 and WW2 is not asking you to hate the Germans.
    It's asking you to remember the sacrifice made for your (and everyones) freedom.
    I've been to Ypres (where my Grandfather died) I've seen the scale of the cemetaries. I defy anyone seeing that to hold back the tears.
    It becomes no easier knowing there are just as many dead Germans buried elsewhere.
    Their families mourned just as did ours. War is a tragedy wherever and whenever it takes place.
    I just believe if we removed religion from the human physcy, we would be on the way to peace.
    There are people out there who do still hate though... Else why are 90-year old men (who were simply clerks etc. at Concentration Camps) still being thrown into prison for what they did however many years ago etc.

    I dont hate Germans myself... I think they're lovely people, and yes if we all had our heads screwed on and were thinking sensibly then we should remember the fallen in all wars because they sacrificed so much but there are those crazy enough out there who will still hate for what happened
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    You cant ban religion - for every nutter who says "i must kill non believers to get into heaven" you get another nutter saying "I cant kill or I wont get into heaven".

    How about we just stop people being nutters?
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    You cant ban religion - for every nutter who says "i must kill non believers to get into heaven" you get another nutter saying "I cant kill or I wont get into heaven".

    How about we just stop people being nutters?

    If only it was possible... There will always be nutters out there from Hitler to the next bloke who murders his wife for no reason.

    What we need to do is try to ensure these people get the help they can to ensure they dont commit these crimes, how we do that I dont know
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    You cant ban religion - for every nutter who says "i must kill non believers to get into heaven" you get another nutter saying "I cant kill or I wont get into heaven".

    How about we just stop people being nutters?

    Or we stop being religious ?

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    I have been saying for years that we need to develop renewable energy sources. Not just because they are green but because the countries where we buy our gas, oil and even coal supplies are different degrees of evil.

    From Saudi and the Middle East through some of North Africa and up into Russia and the former Soviet Union states and then on to China and Venezuela. What one of those countries isn't corrupt? Which one has democracy or even a benign dictatorship? Which of them are known for their equal treatment of women and LGBT? Which of them have a free justice system or a free press?

    Successive governments Tory, New Labour and Coalition have continued to turn a blind eye by trading with regimes that routinely do things that our electorate find abhorrent, it is now (predictably) turning round and biting us on the arse. If they can do shit to their own people they sure as hell can do it to us.

    By buying their stuff we are backing their regimes, a start would be to stop funding them ourselves.

    If you took fossil fuels out of the equation, we would never be seen trading and supporting those regimes. Unfortunately, they literally make our lives go around in the West.

    I've been busting my balls for the last 48 hours working on a proposal for a firm that's work is heavily based around Iranian Oil production; and during our initial conversations I was given what was essentially a crash-course in Iran's oil production, historic sanctions and the current situation. I'd never really paid much attention to it until this week, and I've been left a bit stunned at just how low our "civilised" countries will go in their quests for oil, all under the guise of "diplomacy" and "trade".

    We may have blood on our hands in Iraq, but we have blood on our hands in many more places thanks to our need for Oil.
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    Faith should be an internal belief of a higher power, you should not need a book to tell you how to live your life or treat others.

    Until people stop reading books 2,000 years old and interpreting them for their own gains, nothing will improve.
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    Daggs said:

    Some people are willing to murder other people because they believe a great god in the sky wants them to do so.
    If we could convince them there is no great god in the sky, perhaps, just perhaps, we could heal our differences.
    Stop teaching religion in schools. Close all religious schools. Educate all pupils side by side. Kids that grow up together, will be far more likely to live together in peace.

    I totally agree but the irony is that in France education is secular.

    France like the UK is a very divided and unequal society - add religion into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster. Not sure how you get rid of religion - too many people have a vested interest in it.
    Anything can be justified in the name of religion -genocide,racism,homophobia,misogyny- as long as your prophets have okayed it. Rational argument goes out of the window.
    IMO France and the UK have always had very divided societies, ever since time began with regards to class etc. This violance is purely down to a massive religious devide and I don't think anyone can dress it up in any other way
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    Well said @LuckyReds
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    cabbles said:

    cabbles said:

    It can't be defeated until mankind grows out of the need to believe in the nonsense that is religion.

    People do believe in religion and live perfectly peaceful lives without harming others. What may be utter nonsense to you, actually means a great deal to billions of people across this planet, and would try to use their religion as a vehicle for peace.

    I understand that religion has the power to incite and be used in the wrong way when being taught by those that try to interpret it for their own benefit, but that is an utterly nonsense post
    It's a fairy tale.

    No other concept that has caused so much harm and is patently rubbish and is perpetuated only because it's a hangover from more unlightened times would be tolerated without the ridicule it deserves. It's held back mankinds freedom to think for millennia. I'm glad to say that eventually man will wake up and consign this controlling claptrap to the dustbin of history.

    It might be a fairytale to you but as I said in my last post, billions of others may see it differently.

    I'm a very big fan of science, a lot of what I read is based around theoretical and astro physics and how and where the universe came from. I completely understand where you are coming from with respect to how religion has held back free thought for a number of years.

    However to simply state that if we do away with believing in religion then all this shit that is happening in the world will somehow disappear with it, was wide of the mark for me. Also unfair to those that choose to believe in it without using it as a vehicle for personal gain
    Religion is divisive. Sect v sect is the world norm and mankind being mankind the whole concept is subject to manipulative chancers and they are also the norm.

    This sounds arrogant but I don't respect people's right to believe any more than I respect the rights of a holocaust denier or flat earther to hold those views.

    My arrogance continues in so far as I completely lose some respect for anyone who has religion.



    Not everyone teaching religion is a manipulative chancer. I would also argue arrogance and dismissing those who hold a religious belief as people you have no respect for, equally as damaging to the wider world we live in, but hey-ho

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    cabbles said:

    cabbles said:

    cabbles said:

    It can't be defeated until mankind grows out of the need to believe in the nonsense that is religion.

    People do believe in religion and live perfectly peaceful lives without harming others. What may be utter nonsense to you, actually means a great deal to billions of people across this planet, and would try to use their religion as a vehicle for peace.

    I understand that religion has the power to incite and be used in the wrong way when being taught by those that try to interpret it for their own benefit, but that is an utterly nonsense post
    It's a fairy tale.

    No other concept that has caused so much harm and is patently rubbish and is perpetuated only because it's a hangover from more unlightened times would be tolerated without the ridicule it deserves. It's held back mankinds freedom to think for millennia. I'm glad to say that eventually man will wake up and consign this controlling claptrap to the dustbin of history.

    It might be a fairytale to you but as I said in my last post, billions of others may see it differently.

    I'm a very big fan of science, a lot of what I read is based around theoretical and astro physics and how and where the universe came from. I completely understand where you are coming from with respect to how religion has held back free thought for a number of years.

    However to simply state that if we do away with believing in religion then all this shit that is happening in the world will somehow disappear with it, was wide of the mark for me. Also unfair to those that choose to believe in it without using it as a vehicle for personal gain
    Religion is divisive. Sect v sect is the world norm and mankind being mankind the whole concept is subject to manipulative chancers and they are also the norm.

    This sounds arrogant but I don't respect people's right to believe any more than I respect the rights of a holocaust denier or flat earther to hold those views.

    My arrogance continues in so far as I completely lose some respect for anyone who has religion.



    Not everyone teaching religion is a manipulative chancer. I would also argue arrogance and dismissing those who hold a religious belief as people you have no respect for, equally as damaging to the wider world we live in, but hey-ho

    I rejoice in the fact that at some point in the future all religion will be gone and looked back on with scorn and incredulity.

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    The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam
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    LuckyReds said:

    I have been saying for years that we need to develop renewable energy sources. Not just because they are green but because the countries where we buy our gas, oil and even coal supplies are different degrees of evil.

    From Saudi and the Middle East through some of North Africa and up into Russia and the former Soviet Union states and then on to China and Venezuela. What one of those countries isn't corrupt? Which one has democracy or even a benign dictatorship? Which of them are known for their equal treatment of women and LGBT? Which of them have a free justice system or a free press?

    Successive governments Tory, New Labour and Coalition have continued to turn a blind eye by trading with regimes that routinely do things that our electorate find abhorrent, it is now (predictably) turning round and biting us on the arse. If they can do shit to their own people they sure as hell can do it to us.

    By buying their stuff we are backing their regimes, a start would be to stop funding them ourselves.

    If you took fossil fuels out of the equation, we would never be seen trading and supporting those regimes. Unfortunately, they literally make our lives go around in the West.

    I've been busting my balls for the last 48 hours working on a proposal for a firm that's work is heavily based around Iranian Oil production; and during our initial conversations I was given what was essentially a crash-course in Iran's oil production, historic sanctions and the current situation. I'd never really paid much attention to it until this week, and I've been left a bit stunned at just how low our "civilised" countries will go in their quests for oil, all under the guise of "diplomacy" and "trade".

    We may have blood on our hands in Iraq, but we have blood on our hands in many more places thanks to our need for Oil.
    Yep agree with both of these comments. Our company is involved in some way with the Iranian oil producers. Some of the requests that are made and granted by us are quite frankly pretty shocking (by our standards). But we (the company and our country) are desperate for this business so we'll happily turn a blind eye to countries with terrible human rights records just in pursuit of that $.

    We're not fully responsible for the situation in the Middle East but we have and continue to play our part.
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    PeterGage said:

    The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam

    I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
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    PeterGage said:

    The word "Islamaphobia" to me is an Oxymoron. Phobia is an irrational fear, yet to me, there is nothing irrational about fearing the extreme factions of Islam

    I am Islamaphobic in exactly the same way I am Naziphobic. They both disgust me and I will never refrain from expressing that disgust because one is a World religion followed by 1.6 billion misguided fools.
    there is not enough facepalm on the entire internet for you
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