Do the people against going to Meire's family house think dressing up as camels and singing ' we're all going on a summer holiday' will help them sell up?
Well done all the lads that went out there, good tactic IMO
Personally I don't agree with either, but it's not really meant to viewed as a comparison. There have been numerous CARD things that have not gained universal approval, that will always be the case.
There is a difference though in what you believe is effective in achieving your aims and what is deemed as acceptable behaviour. that's like saying there is no point in doing anything that isn't hard hitting / extreme.
It is purely about where do you draw the line. There is no universal place where we would all draw it, it's just to me, targeting associated family in their homes is past the line I personally would draw.
That's nothing to do with being nice, not wanting to impact wider support etc it's just involving family is not something I agree with.
It's clear though that not everyone agrees with that so I'll ask a question to anyone who thinks I'm being wet with that stance.
About five years ago I banned an overseas-based poster from here. Over the next year I kept getting emails about what a coward I was, how he was going to track me down and beat me up, how he was going to f*ck my mum etc.
What would you say if he come over from abroad, knocked on my parents door wanting to speak to them about me, and leafleted all their neighbours about the terrible way in his opinion I moderate a forum and impacted on his enjoyment.
Would that have been fair game?
So the leaflets were true?!! You really did ban my Nepalese cousin Tony ???
I was under the impression that 'we don't do illegal' and from what I can see of this protest nothing about it was illegal.
Do all ideas need to be cleared or vetoed by CARD? If so, beyond the dozen or so people leading CARD how are the rest of us supposed to know what is or isn't being planned and to what parameters each protest has?
This weeks statement was clear. But I have - along with many others - been canvassed for my opinions by CARD and I assume that was as a result of those questions? I don't know and probably won't until two hours before kick off on Saturday.
I was part of the first Belgium visit and intend to go over again. My focus is on the owner and his businesses though. Having second thoughts now though in case some of the direct action I'd like to take maybe considered as distasteful, over the top or just puerile by people on here who I respect.
I say do what you like at his business Addickted, good luck to you but her parents have nothing to do with what their daughter does for a living and so don't deserve to have people turning up at their door.
I was under the impression that 'we don't do illegal' and from what I can see of this protest nothing about it was illegal.
Do all ideas need to be cleared or vetoed by CARD? If so, beyond the dozen or so people leading CARD how are the rest of us supposed to know what is or isn't being planned and to what parameters each protest has?
This weeks statement was clear. But I have - along with many others - been canvassed for my opinions by CARD and I assume that was as a result of those questions? I don't know and probably won't until two hours before kick off on Saturday.
I was part of the first Belgium visit and intend to go over again. My focus is on the owner and his businesses though. Having second thoughts now though in case some of the direct action I'd like to take maybe considered as distasteful, over the top or just puerile by people on here who I respect.
Nobody has suggested that all protest ideas need to be cleared or vetoed by CARD, but pretty obviously if an idea hasn't been discussed by or even disclosed to CARD then it can't have been endorsed by it, whether the protest is lawful or not. It's no kind of argument that because a protest is lawful it must be sanctioned by CARD.
It still isn't entirely clear to me what exactly happened on the doorstep. However if it is the case that the father opened the door and when asked, denied that KM is his daughter, and assuming you had the right house, that tells us that he was obviously very unsettled by the experience, whether or not our fans thought they were "polite".
So given the reaction on here, (and I do see some of the arguments of those who did this) it would now be a a very smart idea to send some flowers and a note that might say that on consideration we realise that this was an intimidating thing to do, no such intimidation was meant, and it won't happen again.
There is a Valley Party precedent when we sent flowers to Simon Oelman's wife, and told the press about it, after she complained of being abused by Charlton fans.
Much more of this creepy stuff and CARD might find itself in injunction territory.
Can't believe the stupidity behind this.
It wasn't CARD.
I'm glad to hear it but would that distinction be important to Meire seeking some sort of protection for her parents in a foreign country ? The adverse publicity would be awful.
Others will know better, but I'd be surprised if a judge would be willing to injunct one group of people (CARD), the full identity and extent of which cannot be identified by the petitioner, on the basis of the actions of another group of people, also largely unidentified, in relation to something that the petitioner alleges happened in another jurisdiction.
Do the people against going to Meire's family house think dressing up as camels and singing ' we're all going on a summer holiday' will help them sell up?
Well done all the lads that went out there, good tactic IMO
Personally I don't agree with either, but it's not really meant to viewed as a comparison. There have been numerous CARD things that have not gained universal approval, that will always be the case.
There is a difference though in what you believe is effective in achieving your aims and what is deemed as acceptable behaviour. that's like saying there is no point in doing anything that isn't hard hitting / extreme.
It is purely about where do you draw the line. There is no universal place where we would all draw it, it's just to me, targeting associated family in their homes is past the line I personally would draw.
That's nothing to do with being nice, not wanting to impact wider support etc it's just involving family is not something I agree with.
It's clear though that not everyone agrees with that so I'll ask a question to anyone who thinks I'm being wet with that stance.
About five years ago I banned an overseas-based poster from here. Over the next year I kept getting emails about what a coward I was, how he was going to track me down and beat me up, how he was going to f*ck my mum etc.
What would you say if he come over from abroad, knocked on my parents door wanting to speak to them about me, and leafleted all their neighbours about the terrible way in his opinion I moderate a forum and impacted on his enjoyment.
Would that have been fair game?
I take your point Dan, but there are a few differences.
1) You barred him with good reason - I know you guys do not take banning people lightly. KM has no reason to be fucking up our football club
2) Your action mildly effected one person, hers is (quite) majorly effecting tens of thousands.
3) The protesters were not threatening.
4) You didn't lie to this person, or ridicule him in public.
5) His opinion on how you moderate the forum is just that, his opinion, 99% of the rest of us would disagree entirely. KM being a major part of the football club's failure is a fact, 98% of fans would agree entirely.
Like I said, I am ambivalent about this particular action, not the best idea ever, but not the Greek tragedy that some are blowing it up as either.
If people want to go down the 'direct action' route then that's up to them. As long as they don't do it in anyone's name but their own.
The last thing they should be doing is publicising it anywhere though. This forum is clearly monitored by the club, the press and other 3rd parties - why would anyone want a clear account of the division among supporters so openly available? Only very few are interested in digging past what is said by card, the club and it seems now the 'Belgian/ium 20' so they will take comments on here at face value.
It's said we all want the same thing, but for me a thread like this damages everyone.
Take your curtain calls when the job is done. I'm sure the non vocal majority will thank you the same after.
It still isn't entirely clear to me what exactly happened on the doorstep. However if it is the case that the father opened the door and when asked, denied that KM is his daughter, and assuming you had the right house, that tells us that he was obviously very unsettled by the experience, whether or not our fans thought they were "polite".
So given the reaction on here, (and I do see some of the arguments of those who did this) it would now be a a very smart idea to send some flowers and a note that might say that on consideration we realise that this was an intimidating thing to do, no such intimidation was meant, and it won't happen again.
There is a Valley Party precedent when we sent flowers to Simon Oelman's wife, and told the press about it, after she complained of being abused by Charlton fans.
was there intimidation of her parents? from what I am aware they were leafleting, did so at her parents, her Dad came to the door, a brief discussion was had, he took the leaflet. End of. No intimidation.
Have her parents complained? Do we even know they were bothered by it?
It seems no harm done, maybe a good idea not to do it again. Move on, end of story. (not aimed at you Prague just a general comment).
What would everyone think if CARD had bought a billboard in her hometown pointing out her inadequacies - I suspect it would have been applauded.
What about @Coyotejohn1947 's letter campaign to her old university, that has been widely supported on here? How is distributing leaflets any worse than that?
If the "line" that has been crossed is the knocking on the door then I can see that argument, although if the conversation was civil and polite as a one off I have no problem with it, but I can understand that's at the limits of what's acceptable and was risking controversy.
My opinion on all this is that the OP was a bit threatening and ominous in nature, and that's shaped the perception of what happened. It sounds to me though that the reality of what actually happened is far less severe though.
(Unless of course they're not telling us about the dirty protest they put through the letter box afterwards)
Do the people against going to Meire's family house think dressing up as camels and singing ' we're all going on a summer holiday' will help them sell up?
Well done all the lads that went out there, good tactic IMO
Personally I don't agree with either, but it's not really meant to viewed as a comparison. There have been numerous CARD things that have not gained universal approval, that will always be the case.
There is a difference though in what you believe is effective in achieving your aims and what is deemed as acceptable behaviour. that's like saying there is no point in doing anything that isn't hard hitting / extreme.
It is purely about where do you draw the line. There is no universal place where we would all draw it, it's just to me, targeting associated family in their homes is past the line I personally would draw.
That's nothing to do with being nice, not wanting to impact wider support etc it's just involving family is not something I agree with.
It's clear though that not everyone agrees with that so I'll ask a question to anyone who thinks I'm being wet with that stance.
About five years ago I banned an overseas-based poster from here. Over the next year I kept getting emails about what a coward I was, how he was going to track me down and beat me up, how he was going to f*ck my mum etc.
What would you say if he come over from abroad, knocked on my parents door wanting to speak to them about me, and leafleted all their neighbours about the terrible way in his opinion I moderate a forum and impacted on his enjoyment.
Wearing a black and white scarf or standing in a car park shouting at a window with the blinds down - or even keeping the moral high ground - isn't going to work, not in its own.
Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. The point is that these guys feel that have been driven to this and that is a concern for us all.
Fair play that they "did something" and as long as it's legal I ain't gonna dig them out for that.
Pres. and C4fCwhatever will be laughing their bollocks off at this reaction and are nowhere to be seen.
God knows the reason for the post other than some unique reason of self-amusement.
I'm waiting for the latter to turn up and tell us how he's now on Interpol's most wanted list and the Met have snipers ontop of the covered end to slot him if he comes within a mile of the Valley.
Just worth bearing in mind that Meire - who some suspect is not always honest and at times is given to exaggeration - may have told her parents that she has been intimidated and threatened in her role. Against that backdrop, a handful of supporters turning up on their doorstep at a weekend (I assume) may be seen by them as intimidating. Hence their reply that Squirrel Face was not their daughter. I get that.
I think that parents, unless they chose to speak out or get involved, are off limits. Much as I would argue against those who advocate getting the Burnley match abandoned, I think that this, portrayed in a certain way (as in Meire saying a bunch of yobs turned up on the doorstep of her elderly parents in Belgium at a weekend and terrified them) would undo so much of the excellent publicity we have been getting. Squirrel Face on the other hand, utterly fair game.
Wearing a black and white scarf or standing in a car park shouting at a window with the blinds down - or even keeping the moral high ground - isn't going to work, not in its own.
Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. The point is that these guys feel that have been driven to this and that is a concern for us all.
Fair play that they "did something" and as long as it's legal I ain't gonna dig them out for that.
I agree - fair play for doing something.
However you have to think about how things look in the media and what is to be gained by releasing this.
It's just as effective if it's "out there" or not, right?
The morals can be debated, either way. I wasn't there so can't make a judgement on how peaceful it was - yet people would always have spun this as "intimidating" whether it was or not. It was naive not too forsee this IMO.
Once again things go wrong when things are made public and as far as I can see a need for regognition has got in the way here.
This group have done some great things but I fear that wanting plaudits and things such as yesterday's "kicking the hornets nest" are negatively impacting what they are doing.
If a group of strangers approached my elderly parents at their home without an invitation, on the grounds that I was doing a crap job at work, I would have a very serious sense of humour failure.
Sorry this is brainless and totally unacceptable. It is also counter-productive because it plays into the narrative of 'Ms. Meire, the vulnerable female victim doing her best in a man's world'.
Agree with this entirely, had I any parents left and this happened to mine, I'd be screwing.
It would probably make me more aggressive in response. It may make me retaliate in ways I know wind you up... Like not leaving... staying even longer and selling more of our decent players.
I have no strong views on the actions taken re Meire's parent's house, especially as I did not witness them. Although on balance, it possibly wasn't a great idea.
However, yesterday I pointed out to Mr_President & C4FC4L1f3, that their continued boasting and criticism of other fans were doing them no favours.
The response was that they weren't looking for favours & were trying to stir the hornet's nest.
Well, you've well and truly done that & have pretty much lost the majority of possible support you had.
Such a great shame & very poor judgement.
CARD won't touch you with a bargepole if they've any sense (which they have) and I think you've severely limited the chances of new recruits going to Belgium with you in the future. Personally, I'd steer well clear now. You guys are loose cannons.
Do the people against going to Meire's family house think dressing up as camels and singing ' we're all going on a summer holiday' will help them sell up?
Well done all the lads that went out there, good tactic IMO
Personally I don't agree with either, but it's not really meant to viewed as a comparison. There have been numerous CARD things that have not gained universal approval, that will always be the case.
There is a difference though in what you believe is effective in achieving your aims and what is deemed as acceptable behaviour. that's like saying there is no point in doing anything that isn't hard hitting / extreme.
It is purely about where do you draw the line. There is no universal place where we would all draw it, it's just to me, targeting associated family in their homes is past the line I personally would draw.
That's nothing to do with being nice, not wanting to impact wider support etc it's just involving family is not something I agree with.
It's clear though that not everyone agrees with that so I'll ask a question to anyone who thinks I'm being wet with that stance.
About five years ago I banned an overseas-based poster from here. Over the next year I kept getting emails about what a coward I was, how he was going to track me down and beat me up, how he was going to f*ck my mum etc.
What would you say if he come over from abroad, knocked on my parents door wanting to speak to them about me, and leafleted all their neighbours about the terrible way in his opinion I moderate a forum and impacted on his enjoyment.
Do the people against going to Meire's family house think dressing up as camels and singing ' we're all going on a summer holiday' will help them sell up?
Well done all the lads that went out there, good tactic IMO
Personally I don't agree with either, but it's not really meant to viewed as a comparison. There have been numerous CARD things that have not gained universal approval, that will always be the case.
There is a difference though in what you believe is effective in achieving your aims and what is deemed as acceptable behaviour. that's like saying there is no point in doing anything that isn't hard hitting / extreme.
It is purely about where do you draw the line. There is no universal place where we would all draw it, it's just to me, targeting associated family in their homes is past the line I personally would draw.
That's nothing to do with being nice, not wanting to impact wider support etc it's just involving family is not something I agree with.
It's clear though that not everyone agrees with that so I'll ask a question to anyone who thinks I'm being wet with that stance.
About five years ago I banned an overseas-based poster from here. Over the next year I kept getting emails about what a coward I was, how he was going to track me down and beat me up, how he was going to f*ck my mum etc.
What would you say if he come over from abroad, knocked on my parents door wanting to speak to them about me, and leafleted all their neighbours about the terrible way in his opinion I moderate a forum and impacted on his enjoyment.
Would that have been fair game?
It is a totally different scenario though isn't it.
The people involve did not threaten anyone in any way. They did not say that they were going to beat anyone up or have non consensual sex with anyone. Her father was asked, very politely, if he was her father and then he was given some leaflets and that was that.
PS If you ban me from this forum after this post I warn you that I know where you live etc etc.
All this was mentioned on another thread just under 2 weeks ago and no one battered an eyelid. Now this.
It's happened. Nothing will change that, if you agree or disagree with the actions.
Move on and look forward to saturday.
2 days to go....
That's not strictly true. When C4FC4L1f3 mentioned that they had leafleted KM's parent's house I said that it was the wrong side of the line.
This was before it was announced that they actually travelled 22 miles out of town to specifically look for her parent's home and then (after knocking on the door?) had a conversation with her father about his daughter.
If those that did this, and then bragged about it, wanted attention so badly then they are beyond help. Frankly none of the comments on this thread will register with someone that went 22 miles out of their way to approach the parents of someone just trying to do her job - all be it we think she is doing it badly, or is unable to do any better because her boss won't let her.
If they'd recognised him in the street and approached him that could be put down to 'enthusiasm' and would be wrong but understandable. However some one, or some people, went to the trouble to find out where they lived; travelled to Belgium and while there they drove, or took a train, 22 miles to a place that they would, presumably, never have gone to otherwise and they approached their house - their home!
It isn't clear if he came to the door (you know just felt like opening the front door at random for no reason) or if he was summoned by a door bell but if a group of men knocked on my mother's front door to talk to her about how angry they were with my performance I would have them found.
On this basis I would prefer that those that travelled, and continue to travel, to Belgium keep their stories to themselves and disassociate themselves from CARD and all right minded Charlton fans. I hope you are all in the 'boycott all games' group and that you never come back.
Wearing a black and white scarf or standing in a car park shouting at a window with the blinds down - or even keeping the moral high ground - isn't going to work, not in its own.
Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. The point is that these guys feel that have been driven to this and that is a concern for us all.
Fair play that they "did something" and as long as it's legal I ain't gonna dig them out for that.
Once again things go wrong when things are made public and as far as I can see a need for regognition has got in the way here.
I was part of the group that went out to Belgium last month, although not part of the trip to Meire's parents house.
My understanding is that everything was pleasant and peaceful to the point that Meire's father spoke with @The_President for a good few minutes and ended with a handshake. The visit wasn't intended to intimidate her parents and I believe only one person went to the door rather than a large group.
People may have misconceptions about what the trips to Belgium are liked based on some comments made on here but they are carried out in the same way the protests are at The Valley. We receive a tremendous amount of support from STVV supporters and have built up some useful contacts.
The small group that went was diverse in age and although we didn't agree on everything, we understand that different approaches are needed as we work towards our common goal of getting RD to sell up. At no point is the intention to do anything that could potentially undo all of the good work done to date by Card and others.
I was part of the group that went out to Belgium last month, although not part of the trip to Meire's parents house.
My understanding is that everything was pleasant and peaceful to the point that Meire's father spoke with @The_President for a good few minutes and ended with a handshake. The visit wasn't intended to intimidate her parents and I believe only one person went to the door rather than a large group.
People may have misconceptions about what the trips to Belgium are liked based on some comments made on here but they are carried out in the same way the protests are at The Valley. We receive a tremendous amount of support from STVV supporters and have built up some useful contacts.
The small group that went was diverse in age and although we didn't agree on everything, we understand that different approaches are needed as we work towards our common goal of getting RD to sell up. At no point is the intention to do anything that could potentially undo all of the good work done to date by Card and others.
Comments
I was under the impression that 'we don't do illegal' and from what I can see of this protest nothing about it was illegal.
Do all ideas need to be cleared or vetoed by CARD? If so, beyond the dozen or so people leading CARD how are the rest of us supposed to know what is or isn't being planned and to what parameters each protest has?
This weeks statement was clear. But I have - along with many others - been canvassed for my opinions by CARD and I assume that was as a result of those questions? I don't know and probably won't until two hours before kick off on Saturday.
I was part of the first Belgium visit and intend to go over again. My focus is on the owner and his businesses though. Having second thoughts now though in case some of the direct action I'd like to take maybe considered as distasteful, over the top or just puerile by people on here who I respect.
So given the reaction on here, (and I do see some of the arguments of those who did this) it would now be a a very smart idea to send some flowers and a note that might say that on consideration we realise that this was an intimidating thing to do, no such intimidation was meant, and it won't happen again.
There is a Valley Party precedent when we sent flowers to Simon Oelman's wife, and told the press about it, after she complained of being abused by Charlton fans.
1) You barred him with good reason - I know you guys do not take banning people lightly. KM has no reason to be fucking up our football club
2) Your action mildly effected one person, hers is (quite) majorly effecting tens of thousands.
3) The protesters were not threatening.
4) You didn't lie to this person, or ridicule him in public.
5) His opinion on how you moderate the forum is just that, his opinion, 99% of the rest of us would disagree entirely. KM being a major part of the football club's failure is a fact, 98% of fans would agree entirely.
Like I said, I am ambivalent about this particular action, not the best idea ever, but not the Greek tragedy that some are blowing it up as either.
The last thing they should be doing is publicising it anywhere though. This forum is clearly monitored by the club, the press and other 3rd parties - why would anyone want a clear account of the division among supporters so openly available? Only very few are interested in digging past what is said by card, the club and it seems now the 'Belgian/ium 20' so they will take comments on here at face value.
It's said we all want the same thing, but for me a thread like this damages everyone.
Take your curtain calls when the job is done. I'm sure the non vocal majority will thank you the same after.
Have her parents complained? Do we even know they were bothered by it?
It seems no harm done, maybe a good idea not to do it again. Move on, end of story. (not aimed at you Prague just a general comment).
What about @Coyotejohn1947 's letter campaign to her old university, that has been widely supported on here? How is distributing leaflets any worse than that?
If the "line" that has been crossed is the knocking on the door then I can see that argument, although if the conversation was civil and polite as a one off I have no problem with it, but I can understand that's at the limits of what's acceptable and was risking controversy.
My opinion on all this is that the OP was a bit threatening and ominous in nature, and that's shaped the perception of what happened. It sounds to me though that the reality of what actually happened is far less severe though.
(Unless of course they're not telling us about the dirty protest they put through the letter box afterwards)
Pres. and C4fCwhatever will be laughing their bollocks off at this reaction and are nowhere to be seen.
God knows the reason for the post other than some unique reason of self-amusement.
JOKE!
Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. The point is that these guys feel that have been driven to this and that is a concern for us all.
Fair play that they "did something" and as long as it's legal I ain't gonna dig them out for that.
Actual interaction with the parents is debatable and it depends on the circumstances.
If neighbours were also canvassed then interaction could be justified but targeting the parents and nobody else would be wrong.
All that said, from the description on here previously, I don't think anything untoward took place.
I think that parents, unless they chose to speak out or get involved, are off limits. Much as I would argue against those who advocate getting the Burnley match abandoned, I think that this, portrayed in a certain way (as in Meire saying a bunch of yobs turned up on the doorstep of her elderly parents in Belgium at a weekend and terrified them) would undo so much of the excellent publicity we have been getting. Squirrel Face on the other hand, utterly fair game.
However you have to think about how things look in the media and what is to be gained by releasing this.
It's just as effective if it's "out there" or not, right?
The morals can be debated, either way. I wasn't there so can't make a judgement on how peaceful it was - yet people would always have spun this as "intimidating" whether it was or not. It was naive not too forsee this IMO.
Once again things go wrong when things are made public and as far as I can see a need for regognition has got in the way here.
This group have done some great things but I fear that wanting plaudits and things such as yesterday's "kicking the hornets nest" are negatively impacting what they are doing.
It would probably make me more aggressive in response. It may make me retaliate in ways I know wind you up... Like not leaving... staying even longer and selling more of our decent players.
Although on balance, it possibly wasn't a great idea.
However, yesterday I pointed out to Mr_President & C4FC4L1f3, that their continued boasting and criticism of other fans were doing them no favours.
The response was that they weren't looking for favours & were trying to stir the hornet's nest.
Well, you've well and truly done that & have pretty much lost the majority of possible support you had.
Such a great shame & very poor judgement.
CARD won't touch you with a bargepole if they've any sense (which they have) and I think you've severely limited the chances of new recruits going to Belgium with you in the future. Personally, I'd steer well clear now. You guys are loose cannons.
The Belgian 20 guys aren't CARD.
The people involve did not threaten anyone in any way. They did not say that they were going to beat anyone up or have non consensual sex with anyone. Her father was asked, very politely, if he was her father and then he was given some leaflets and that was that.
PS If you ban me from this forum after this post I warn you that I know where you live etc etc.
This was before it was announced that they actually travelled 22 miles out of town to specifically look for her parent's home and then (after knocking on the door?) had a conversation with her father about his daughter.
If those that did this, and then bragged about it, wanted attention so badly then they are beyond help. Frankly none of the comments on this thread will register with someone that went 22 miles out of their way to approach the parents of someone just trying to do her job - all be it we think she is doing it badly, or is unable to do any better because her boss won't let her.
If they'd recognised him in the street and approached him that could be put down to 'enthusiasm' and would be wrong but understandable. However some one, or some people, went to the trouble to find out where they lived; travelled to Belgium and while there they drove, or took a train, 22 miles to a place that they would, presumably, never have gone to otherwise and they approached their house - their home!
It isn't clear if he came to the door (you know just felt like opening the front door at random for no reason) or if he was summoned by a door bell but if a group of men knocked on my mother's front door to talk to her about how angry they were with my performance I would have them found.
On this basis I would prefer that those that travelled, and continue to travel, to Belgium keep their stories to themselves and disassociate themselves from CARD and all right minded Charlton fans. I hope you are all in the 'boycott all games' group and that you never come back.
My understanding is that everything was pleasant and peaceful to the point that Meire's father spoke with @The_President for a good few minutes and ended with a handshake. The visit wasn't intended to intimidate her parents and I believe only one person went to the door rather than a large group.
People may have misconceptions about what the trips to Belgium are liked based on some comments made on here but they are carried out in the same way the protests are at The Valley. We receive a tremendous amount of support from STVV supporters and have built up some useful contacts.
The small group that went was diverse in age and although we didn't agree on everything, we understand that different approaches are needed as we work towards our common goal of getting RD to sell up. At no point is the intention to do anything that could potentially undo all of the good work done to date by Card and others.
KM Dad, "No milk today thank you" *Slams door*
Protester, "Oh"